Variou$ woe$ and some happine$$ too

[ann3]

Hops,

I noticed something you said about yourself, which I'm highlighting, not to be hurtful, but because it, perhaps, reveals how you view yourself:

The worn-out post-middle aged caregiver in me who's trying desperately to find a 2nd job, sell her car, and hold on to her home  No, No, No!!

Dear Hops, you seem to be very negative & down on yourself.  Can you work on this?  What strikes me is the air of desperation.  Hops, you are a wonderful, caring person, a giving, sensitive person going thru some very hard times.  You have been treated unfairly, but that doesn't make you a rotten person.  You sound very hard on yourself.  Can you re-phrase this in positives?  Some self affirmations?  Not self negations.  When we go thru hard times, we can feel crappy about ourselves, but, that can also be the point where we can turn around our feelings of self negativity.  Circumstances were unfair & negative, but you are a wonderful, loving, deep, spiritual & sincere person.

Perhaps this is a gift from your Gennulman:  The experinece is causing you to look at yourself and perhaps what you see is negative.  Can you turn that around?  I think you can.

xoxo,
ann

[ann3]

Male strip clubs for women aren't perceived or judged in quite the same way - culturally - are they? Neither the performers, nor the customers... what's that all about?

Amber,
Good point.  But, for me, I feel that most strippers, male or female, do that work because they can't get anything better & big money is the lure.  I also feel that the stripper, male or female, is usually subjected to exploitation and a loss of dignity.

xoxo,
ann

[Ami]

Male strip clubs for women aren't perceived or judged in quite the same way - culturally - are they? Neither the performers, nor the customers... what's that all about?

Amber,
Good point.  But, for me, I feel that most strippers, male or female, do that work because they can't get anything better & big money is the lure.  I also feel that the stripper, male or female, is usually subjected to exploitation and a loss of dignity.

xoxo,
ann

Brilliant as usual, Ann!        Ami

[gjazz]

I'd say a good part of the cultural difference has to do with the fact that there is a great deal of male on female violence associated with sex and very little female on male violence associated with sex.  Physically, culturally, socially, women start with less power than men, and give up more of that smaller percentage when they engage in that sort of work. 

Early on Hops introduced the issue of respect, because without that a healthy relationship isn't possible.  I don't believe most women at Chippendales DISrespect the men on stage.  I do believe most men at titty clubs DISrespect the women on stage.  That's just my opinion, maybe a male can weigh in and tell me I'm wrong.

If a woman wants to be a stripper, more power to her.  Worked for Diablo Cody, who now has an Oscar.  But she had an exit plan.

[ann3]

Thanks, Ami.  Love to you.
xoxo,
ann

[ann3]

gjazz,

"titty clubs":   Exactly:  If one shows one's titties at a titty club, I assume she gets no respect or, rather dignity.

edit:  I'm no prude, but I think most strippers feel like lost people, re-enacting or manifesting some trauma.  An yet, 'sex work' is one of the oldest professions.  But, I believe that if one has a choice, if one has options, one would choose work which didn't involve selling their sexuality in such a manner.

xoxo,
ann

[gjazz]

Respect is such an interesting topic to me, because I grew up in a home devoid of it.  I do not believe respect must be earned.  I believe disrespect must be earned.  I believe respect for others should be the default position.  Because I have no moral issue with people dancing nude--male or female--I don't think anyone should be disrespected for choosing to do so.  That is to say, if I meet someone, and that person is a dancer in a titty bar, provided she wasn't looking for help, provided she genuinely wanted to be there, I couldn't care less.  Adults have the right to make such decisions. 

I do believe most men who patronize those places bring their disrespect for women in the door with them, rather than develop it as a result of the stage action.  I don't think these men disrespect a woman for baring her breasts, I think they tell themselves, "see, I was right about the bitches all along."  And I think some men who patronize those places are probably just terribly lonely, and project onto the dancers some sad script in which they swoop in like Superman and save the poor defenseless lass from all the tawdriness and they end up living happily ever after.

[ann3]

gjazz,

I agree.  I guess it's the 'titty bar' phrase that threw me.  Semantics.

[gjazz]

In my opinion most women do not go into sex work because it's their dream job.  I grew up in a household where women were constantly degraded.  I was told I was worth nothing.  So while it can be hard for me because my tendency is to want to project that, if a woman wants to strip for a living (or just for fun or whatever), I must respect it.  There's very little in the way I've lived my life that coincides with what my family and friends from childhood believe is right.  The criticism is always there.  The emotional blackmail is always there.  I'm on my own, so I understand someone going against what people tell them they should be doing, saying "I won't be your friend unless..." or "I can't invite you unless..." or "you won't be happy unless..."

I respect others' decisions for their lives--provided they are decisions, and the people are adults.

[Gaining Strength]

OMG gjazz - your last post just spoke volumes to me. Thank you.  I see something about myself and my childhood in a new light.  Thanks again.

[ann3]

Hi gjazz,

I agree with you & I am not looking to debate the issue of nude dancing (male or female), particularly since it originates in ancient times, dating back to the Roman Empire and before. 

[mudpuppy]

  I  haven't had a chance to read the whole thread so hope I'm commenting accurately, but what I did read leads me to say a couple of things.

  Hops if ever there was a guy displaying red flags it would be this gennulman friend of yours. You are extremely vulnerable right now because of what your brother is doing to you, particularly as it applies to the ostracization within your FOO. I hope you have very long arms because IMO he should definitely be kept at arms length.

  It is my experience that very few people aren't eccentric in some way. Some of the most ostentatiously eccentric were at the same time some of the most profoundly boring and inherently predictable people one could meet while others were perfectly sweet and still others dangerously unhinged; they were simply posers putting on a mask for others. Some of the most stolid, conventional looking folks, even Republican dentists, are at the same time some of the least predicatable most interesting people you could imagine; many in a very good way with experiences, viewpoints and knowledge you would never guess and some in a dark and very dangerous way. Something about books and covers comes to mind.

  Men who patronize strip clubs disrespect women. A woman who displays her body to such men is disrespecting herself.
The culture of drugs and prostitution which permeates such places is just a further sign of the disrespect they cultivate.

mud
 
 

[ann3]

Thus spake Mud. 

Red flags, stippers, books & covers.

Hear, hear!

[gjazz]

I'm not looking to debate nude dancing, either.  I come on here to express my views and/or experiences freely and honestly, just as I assume everyone else does.  That said, I agree with Mud, mostly, and I think Hops has made the right decision.  The one thing I haven't asked Hops that came to mind some time ago, is whether seeking out people who are needy/co-dependent is part of feeling unworthy, somehow, of anyone "better?"  It seems to me you have an awful lot to offer the right person.  You are extremely compassionate and caring and empathetic, and willing to bend over backwards to help.  You deserve a balanced relationship with someone who brings what YOU need from them to the table.

[Izzy_*now*]

You're spot on. I can't become intimate without offering my heart along with my body any more. Maybe I can, but the price is too steep. So I'm just not going to do that to myself again.

Heart firmly in chest,
hugs
Hops

hiya Hops

My very best to you in your quest and I quoted you here because that is how I am.

I have been understanding as years pass, and I hear about more and more "relationships", that once the woman has given all of herself, she has invested far more than the man has.

If it's true that men think about sex 'constantly', and that there are SO may 'cheaters' then a man will never be satisfied in being monogamous, but will take whatever any 'chippy' offers.

If the man I love has used a part of his body. to 'enter' my body, then I would expect it go nowhere else. If it 'entered' a different woman every day then I think his 'part' ought to rot and fall off!

A marriage can work without sex, but it cannot work without trust and respect. IMHO.

I might dub myself "Lorena Bobbit II", if I were in that set of circumstances...............

........and imagine my horror when I learned that Ex-N, as of 6 years now, is/was...was/were... Bi-- and where his 'funny little part' has been.......even before we met.....and I could upchuck!

Maybe that is why I never married....maybe I knew more than I 'knew'

This is timely for me as I tried to watch the movie, "Bachelor Party: The Last Temptation" (supposedly a comedy, but the groom to be was the only one who had sense) just last night yet it became so "lurid' that I had to stop. I use that term because I never saw showers being taken. The nude boobs were all silicon, so "not real" that it made me almost be ashamed to be a woman...just two basketballs on each gal's chest. Rear views of G-strings that made me hope none had diarrhea, but that idea came as one guy reached in and scratched his bare ass/whatever under his shorts, then used the same hand to grab into the hors d'oeuvre tray and stuff food into his pocket.

I have a sense of being Highly Sensitive. Can you understand? Ha Ha     

Well I am off to upchuck!

Good Luck

Love
Izzy