am I at decision time?

[Hopalong]

I'll be quick and blunt or I won't get it all out:

I have just faced more honestly how serious Gennulman's alcoholism is.
I was in denial for some time because he is SO sweet, kind, nurturing, supportive, lovely and wonderful.*
(*unlike most of the previous men I've been involved with, he's EAGER to be involved back, to be close, to build something...)

Our Christmas day together was the happiest I've felt in years. SO many things in common and that I like to do with him.
His loyalty and support during my whole crisis about my brother was staggering to me. He was REALLY there for me in ways that made a huge difference in my life.

He's delightful.
I'm attracted to him (not sleeping with him...I told him I am very slow on purpose and he's never made me unhappy about it.)

Last night, at a party at a friend's, he drank too much. He was just a little sloppy--nothing offensive and I'm not sure others noticed. But I did. He was slurring his words on the way home. (I drive.)

That is the 3rd time in the 6 months I've been seeing him that he's been that inebriated around me. Often, when I first see him, I sense he's already been drinking, and every evening we spend together, he pours multiple glasses of wine. One day he called him drunk at 5:30 pm. He tops off my winglass when we're together, too, though I've told him I'd prefer he didn't as I'd like to limit my intake to 1 or 2 glasses and when it's just "topped off" I can become unaware. I do not like to overdrink and I don't like "protecting the supply". To be SURE we always have some ready to uncork.

So here I am, happier in companionship than I've been in ages...and there's this dark cloud.

I talked to him about it briefly, gently. He wasn't defensive but didn't know what I'd noticed. When I said he'd been slurring his words a look of great pain crossed his face. I asked if noone else had ever told him they were concerned about his drinking and he said yes, in previous relationships, he'd been asked not to drink so much. But he doesn't talk about it more directly than that, so far.

The simplest and most sensible advice is to not go any further, turn this quickly to "just friendship". I can do that. Ow ow ow.
One hard thing is that many of my friends and church mates have met him and they ALL think he is a lovely, wonderful person. Virtually without exception they're pained at the idea I wouldn't let it go forward. They want me to be happy. They have seen him so happy with him.
And they're right.

I have not been involved with someone who's so kind, decent, caring. (The nudie bar thing...I made my peace with it. It's in his past, I think it was great loneliness and social awkwardness he fell into, and he was a sort of geeky guy. Still is, but it's someting that disarms me.)

So I will probably have to give up the remarriage, build a new life together notion. I haven't been obsessing about a future together, but I've started to think about it some. The present has been pretty wonderful.

I welcome all your thoughts, any of them, blunt or anything. I feel as though I need some help with this.

The idea of taking care of someone new exhausts me. I feel a little selfish. I don't want to deal with it!

But I do care for him very much and he's made me very happy. He is a GOOD man.

Damn.

love, and thank you,

Hops

[SilverLining]

 I recommend the books and website of Doug Thorburn which provide guidelines for judging the extent of alcohol/ drug problems.

www.justsaynotoaddicts.com

According to Thorburn, alcoholics can be socially competent and charming for many years, even decades, but their problems tend to get worse over time and they lose the capacity for positive relationships.  If he is an admitted alcoholic and still drinking, it seems like a "deal breaker" to me, for anything other than a casual relationship. 

[Izzy_*now*]

hi Hops,

I do so empathize with your situation. "My Joe", D's father, was an alcoholic. It just became worse and worse, and he shot himself at age 47. He was a hopeless case....I say... as I never knew about AA back then, but I still hear that AA is not 100% successful

I would suggest no marriage, no intimacy, but it already appears you have a good, worthwhile friendship. FROM MY View, I would dislike to think I had such a good friend, but that he "had to go to someone else' for sex. That would hurt me to the bone, (?) so I don't have any answers, only experience with heavy drinkers, Joe and the N.

Much Love
Izzy

[Hopalong]

Thank you, CB, Silver, and Izz...

CB: I think marriage is important to me. I want a legal partner to grow old with. I want lots of play and laughter but also the mutual reciprocal seriousness of commitment. I want to feel safe and have daily rituals and routines...to share a home.  I don't need it right away, and I recognize it may not come about...but that's the dream. I'm more aware than I used to be that this dream may not come true, though. I ain't gettin' any younger.

I am not "in love" with him but I am growing to love him. I don't know how else to respond but with my heart...

We talked tonight about drinking...he doesn't want the label, of course, but says it's fine to cut back. I feel good with him but I am concerned. He does rationalize and minimize... but he was willing to have the conversation.

I don't think I should have sex with him and things are progressing so that soon I'll have to make a choice. We are definitely becoming a "we" so it's bearing down...facing up to this and what it may mean to my future, whether he wants to or not.

It was easier in previous relationships because the alcoholic or Nmen I chose were MEAN.

This man is the opposite of mean. So I'm topsy turvy.
One thing that encouraged me was that he did go a long stretch without drinking. I didn't know he ever had.

I guess I can watch and wait a little more, but I'm feeling internal pressure to "make a ruling". It's darn hard, because I'm not thinking of him as a category but as a person. I do care very much about the person...


Silver Lining, that's a sobering site...and the test on observable signs says, 100%, he's alcoholic.

Izzy...what your Joe was and put you through and went through himself is the worst of the worst.
I am so sorry.

love
Hops

[Hopalong]

PS--

I have had such rotten judgment in the past....alllllllllways attracted to eccentrics/rebels/outsiders (as I am one).

He fits the bill, and the truth is, I know everyone will say oh nooooooooo it isn't your last chance at love...

But a part of me says, hey, you'll be 59 years old soon enough. Maybe it IS.

xo
Hops

[debkor]

Hey Hops,

If you can talk about this...good thing...and why not ask if you can go to a few counseling sessions together like a pre_ anything...serious friendship, marriage,  but you have to even be committed to a friendship, Ya know, and drinking problems can destroy anything eventually.  It is very difficult to deal and live with someone (even not together) with such a disease. 

If you want to continue anything with this man..I would suggest you go to at least Alanon meetings (for your own support).  It is a relationship (friends) even, if you so choose.


He sounds like a nice man, a kind man, an eccentric, rebel, outsider..with a disease (alcoholism). 

 

I'm feeling internal pressure to "make a ruling".

Don't force a decision...Let it come to you...of course if you must do to Danger or Harm. 

You do not have to do anything that you don't want to do and you are confused about what to do.... maybe make a meeting or two......

Now is the time Hops to resolve (conflicts) within yourself about this man before you get in deeper. 
I  know been there done that.....Very difficult when you Care! 

You will be effected by his disease no matter How Nice he is....I see it bothers you already...

Talk to him about it and talk to others....

The present has been pretty wonderful.

I'm sure it has been but you do not know your future with exception of he has a drinking problem and.....that must be taken care of if he is willing ....or your future will always be...unknown.  I don't think it gets better Hoppy.  It is a progressive disease but something that he can Stop and heal from. 

Love to you Hops,
Deb

[gjazz]

Hmm.  I think what I would ask him is: can we try this for awhile without the wine?  A few days.  If I had to give up all my friends who'd slurred words three times in six months, I'd have few left.  But drinking every day--that might be alcoholism, but it might also be more of a crutch he's gotten used to leaning on--a habit as opposed to a true addiction.  You can see what I cannot, of course.  If you believe he has a problem, chances are he does.  But a few days isn't too much to ask, just to see how it goes.  He's proven he's serious about this relationship.  Why not give it that, at least?

[Izzy_*now*]

hi gjazz

I finally used the word 'alcoholic' with J, after I'd kicked him out.... and his sister sent him back the next day.

I said to him that he could not go 6 months without a drink.

He said, "I can prove it faster than that. I can go TWO months without a drink" (I saw through that, but at least had 2 free months.)

...and he did.. with the date marked on the calendar, for 2 months later, and then came home with TWO bottles of whiskey instead of one.

They can be tricky

Izz

[Izzy_*now*]

now for alcohlics I know/knew.

False names:

Helen and Greg had 8 kids. We all babysat for them. He drank all the time and his heart "blew up" in his mid 50s. He would come to town and stop in to stay over, but never did....always drove drunk, home to his wife. Greg worked.

Joan and Lou had 4 girls and a son (who died right after I met them). They ended up renting the downstairs of the duplex I rented. Lou worked and drank and I did all the man-work around the house, while he drank away the weekends. They moved away, with a transfer for him, 1 week before my accident. Soon after he was drinking a beer..wondered "why the Hell"? dumped it and never drank again.

My next eldest sister's first husband.. I did his books and he would come in with a bottle of whiskey (get drunk while I worked) and after they divorced he, too, would come into town, get drunk, stop over-- that's why I bought a daybed for the livingroom. He is in late 70s and used up with rheumatoid arthritis...don't know about his drinking now.

Lois and Al (a school buddy of J's). He was a recovering alcoholic when I met them. Al was on "the Indian list". He was not allowed in a liquor store and I never knew of him to take a drink after we met.

The ex-N and his ½ brother, both out of control.

My younger sister's BIL (husband's brother) in a home for the chronically addicted.  I know this but he is never mentioned by my prissy sister, but for once recently that led me to believe they go to visit him "regularly?"

Joe's family in general but his younger brother died of a heart attack at age 38.  Only J didn't slow down. (I thought the partying was just for the long weekends when we all got together.)

There are different outcomes for different people.

I think, that if a friend of mine, "drank too much" but did not have a personality change when slurring that I would be able to tolerate his/her problem, but no driving, no aberrent behaviour

Just my opinion, knowing we all are not perfect.

Iz

[Hopalong]

There are different outcomes for different people.

Thank you for saying this, for telling me those stories.

I heard a quote (actually, Gennulman wrote it in his journal about a year ago, in his worst period) by Loren Eisley:

"To live smoothly is to live decently but without idealism."

love you,

Hops

[teartracks]

Hi Hops,

Can you believe it?  Tonight, I'm 'bluntless' in the south.  Kidding aside, I'm the last person to offer advice on relationships involving romance.  If all I know about romance were bound in a book,  the pages would be blank!  Pitiful, ain't it?

tt

[gjazz]

I agree with Izzy that there can be different outcomes for different people--and that alcohol, as a drug, affects individuals differently.  I've known lots of people who drink.  Some routinely to excess, even, whom I wouldn't necessarily call alcoholics.  It's a tricky subject, as Izzy says, but to a certain degree I think "alcoholism" is an overused word, if only because it is defined so differently by different people.  Yes, I've seen the tests and the checklists.  But here's the thing, Hops.  If he enjoys drinking, he probably won't stop.  Doesn't necessarily mean he'll start drinking more and more until dementia sets in.  It may mean he'll have his three or four glasses of wine a night until he dies at age 105.  My father has two martinis a night.  Always has.  Sometimes more, but never a drink after dinner.  It's a habit.  He rarely gets drunk.  So it's all about what you want and whether or not it's really important to you that he stop, because if so, that's the thing to ask him.   I know "defending" booze might be an unpopular position to take.  People have been hurt by it.  No question.  But...you are a writer, yes?  Writer's conference vs. AA meeting--which has the greater concentration of drinkers?  Probably a tie!

[Gaining Strength]

OK - here's my two cents worth.

I'd go ahead and assume the worst - that he is an alcoholic.  Just because he went a long period of time or just because he doesn't get drunk all the time actually does not mean that he is not an alcoholic.  Let's say, for argument's sake, that he is.  What does that mean for the future?

Well, I still say it doesn't mean there can't BE a future but I also say that before you get too far along that you always have inmind that you can have as a requirement for marriage that he attend a treatment facility.  Sound strange?  I suppose it does.  But when I learned my late husband had been an alcoholic but was recovering, I sort of worried but let it all go for many reasons similiar to ones you have espoused above Hops but eventually he would begin drinking again and it was not a problem at first, just a little here and there, just with the guys and then more, and then more and THEN MORE and finally it was WWAYY too much and his friends came and really pushed and pushed me to put together an intervention.  I did.  He refused and blamed me to the end.

The alcohol did not become a problem until we had bumps in our relationship.  Then part of the relational problems were that I had absolutely no sway over him - alcohol included.  This man, who had been through AA in the past, completely and fully blamed me for his drinking.  Nevermind that that accusation would not get past the door in AA or any other treatment philosophy.  It was a surprise and blow to me.

My point is this - I hear all the wonderful things about this guy for you, but the drinking is a problem, a real problem, only just emerging during the good times.  It will get worse.  I must be addressed.  It needn't be a deal breaker at this point but doing nothing should be.  That's the message - doing nothing about the drinking/alcoholism should be a deal breaker.  I encourage you to push him now while things are good and he is most likely to do what is necessary to keep a promising relationship.

That's my 2 cents worth.  Love to you - GS.

[gjazz]

I don't know what the future holds, Hops.  Are you happier with him or without him right now?  Life is short.  And you don't have to solve everything today.  You've earned some happiness so ask yourself where and with whom that lies.  As long as you are honest with yourself, you'll make the right call.

[Lupita]

Whi am I to give advise when my own love life is a disaster. But I am better to find the problems that other people have rather than mine. I think I am more objective when I see others and about my self I am totally confised.

Anyway, my point is that I am going to give you my point of view, but just take it as a grain of salt, and discarde it if you want. Also, if you want me to erase it, just let me know and I will.

Because I really appreciate you I will dare to tell you what I think. But I am doing it just because I love you and I loke you and you have been very nice and empathetic to me.

I do not know how to feel empathy, just how to be honest.

OK, here it is.

Something is missing here. You are missing something and you are trying to replace it with a relationship boyfriend.

In a very short period of time I have seen you talking about different men. The gardener, the psichologist, this new guy, etc.
It is too much too soon. You are going from the arms of one man to the arms of another not finding what you really are looking for because you probably do not know what you are looking for.
I think you go from one fantasy to another fantasy and reality is shocking to you. You do not like reality. Having a man is a band-aid. Like putting chew gum in a licking roof.
It happens to me. I have a very good person in my life and I am unhappy. So, I do not think it is going to be a matter of the man that is in your life at a particular moment.
That you have not put your eyes on a man that you know is going to be a healthy relationship with you. Do you do it consciously or unconsciously? Do youi realize what you are doing? Probably not.
I have the impression that you are in search of something that you do not know what it is.

Just my point of view, and I am trying to do it with love, if you want I will erase it.

You have been so nice and so good to me, that I would hate to see you hurting.

If I am totally off track, just discard it.

Love to you!!!!!!!!!!!