Narcissistic communication modes in the FOO.

[SilverLining]

Over the past several years, I've realized that 99% of my fathers interactions with other people fall into the following categories:

-Monologuing
-Explaining
-Criticizing
-Debating
-Arguing
-Discounting
-Counterpointing
-Advising (unsolicited)


Every interaction is a way to prop up his own ego.

Almost totally absent from the repertoire:

-Listening
-Affirming
-Complimenting
-Answering (questions or solicited advice)
-Nurturing
-Validating
-Asking questions
-Learning from others
-reciprocating

He can appear to engage in superficial reciprocal dialogue for a moment, in order to lure people into interaction.  Then the topic is inevitably switched back to himself.

My mother is not quite so confrontational, but still tends to talk about herself most of the time.   It took me a long time to figure this stuff out.  Since reciprocal communications were not part of the environment, I didn't understand what I was missing, just knew it was a depressing place to be. 

[seasons]

Wow, my N behaves in exactly this manner. How can their behavior be so identical? It's quite creepy.

Thank you for putting in words my life experience also................ perfect description. seasons

[sunblue]

Wow is right.  You are right on in your description.  There is NO reciprocation on any level with an N....and what I find interesting, no interest at all.  Part of reciprocating, listening, asking questions is a sincere interest in learning about or knowing others.  But Ns truly have no interest in others.

I'm also wondering the following.  My dad is extremely co-dependent.  He is not an N...and my guess is that his co-dependency worsened as time went on...perhaps in direct proportion to the narcissism of my mother and sister.  I'm wondering if these enablers, co-dependents become less aware of their behavior as time goes on?  While my dad is a Co-D, he also exhibits narcissisistic traits---although never with my Nmom or Nsis...only with me or others who are not N....He expects to be waited on, he has a strong sense of "entitlement" about everything....he exhibits a "woe is me" attitude.....So I'm wondering if being married to an N his whole adult life as well as being a father to an Ndaughter (my siis, the GC), has caused him to adopt N behaviors in addition to his extreme co-D behaviors.

Has anyone else experienced this?

[Ami]

Dear Sun
 My Dad is the same way. I think he is a Saintly N. I think he does not feel or have empathy  or he could not stand by and let my M destroy his children.
 I think back on events with him when he did not seem to feel.
 My B (age 14)was sexually abused by a man who lured him in to his house. My B told my F. My F 's back was turned at the time and my F NEVER turned around, never said a word, just went on as if s/one had talked about the weather.
 What is that? It must be an N.
 I don't know , I am just passing on my ideas about my F.
 What is awful for me is wondering about my own damage coming out of this mess.         Love to you,  Ami

[sKePTiKal]

Oh yes... I think we all learn communication styles from our environment. Or not learn, as the case may be! I know I have a tendency to "adapt" to other's communication styles for the goal of "fitting in". Unfortunately, that's become totally scripted for me and contributes to continuation of self-sabotage...

I've been wanting to suggest a book on communication that provides the necessary "how-tos" that I know I lack because of the non-existence of proper modeling at home. Lately, I've become painfully aware that I need to work on my communication skills... that's it's absolutely essential for the transition that I'm going through. It's focus is on the workplace - but I found it really easy to apply the techniques to personal communication, too.

Title: crucial conversations - Tools for talking when stakes are high (no, no caps for "crucial conversations")
Authors: Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, Ron McMillan, Al Switzler


The book deals with topics that we're familiar with... techniques for managing emotions in a fluid, spontanteous situation and actually saying what we really want to say, instead of reacting (perhaps from a triggered emotion/scripted situational role). There are even tips for deciding what we really want to say. This book has helped me learn to see (at least looking back at; still working on bringing this to the present moment) signs of when a "head game", conflict or crucial conversation is about to start. Not all crucial conversations are head-games... but that is sort of what I got suckered into lately. AGAIN...

Table of Contents:
What's  Crucial Conversation (and who cares?)
Mastering Crucial Conversations (The power of dialogue)
Start with Heart (Focus on what you really want)
Learn to Look (Notice when safety is at risk)
Make it Safe (How to make it safe to talk about almost anything)
Master My Stories (How to stay in Dialogue when you're angry, scared or hurt) [Boy, did I really need this chapter!!]
"STATE" my Path (How to speak persuasively, not abrasively)
Explore Others' Paths
Move to Action
Putting it all together
Yeah, but (Advice for Tough Cases)
Change your life (how to turn ideas into habits)

... in other words, adopting this way of understanding communication, practicing this, for better communication - avoiding voiceless repetitions of our old FOO scripts, etc.

One thing I learned after I bought the book, studied it, had my AHA moment and applied it to my problem-situation... is that I didn't know how to tell when a signal is given, for when a crucial conversation is beginning - and then I saw where it was. It was people not dealing with facts of the situation and deciding what to do - but instead - jumping to blame SOMEONE.

Anyway, I'm finding the book really useful for changing my way of speaking in high-stakes or emotionally charged situations. Just wanted to pass it on....

[gratitude28]

Silver,
I have also noticed lately that NM repeats anything she has gotten a provocation out of before - even if it has no relevance to the conversation. What you have pointed out is spot on, and the reason I avoid talking to NM if at all possible. You really came up with a succinct description.
Love, Beth

[Izzy_*now*]

Oh WOW

I can identify here, too even though I have never called anyone in my FOO, but for one sister, an N.

This statement from you, SL: My mother is not quite so confrontational, but still tends to talk about herself most of the time.

I immediately saw someone who doesn't listen or allow herself to get to know anyone, including her family, and I see that in my FOO, because we didn't have crucial conversations. I mentioned in another post that one sister and I are finally sharing intimate details. I think she might be the only one capable of that. It was through this that I stopped being as hard on myself, when I realized that I thought that none of them knew how to be "close". I was trying: they were shoving me away and I didn't see that aspect to it! I just saw rejection of me!

I ought read that book. sounds good, as I believe I need to know how to begin "crucial" material without sounding confrontational, or as though I am assigning blame.

Thanks
Izzy

[Hopalong]

NM repeats anything she has gotten a provocation out of before - even if it has no relevance to the conversation

Hi Beth,

My mother did this.

At some pointd, her emotional cluelessness (lack of empathy) would strike me as so extreme that I would realize that it had literally blunted her intelligence. It was like emotional autism. She'd have a feeling or a spark of something (whether positive or negative) and she'd do so much repeating..

As though she expected her audience to react in exactly the same surprised or affected way each time, even though the material was unchanging.

Like....GroundHog Day with Mom

xo
Hops

[BonesMS]

And it's frustrating attempting to communicate with an N only to be ignored.

Bones

[SilverLining]

NM repeats anything she has gotten a provocation out of before - even if it has no relevance to the conversation

Hi Beth,

My mother did this.

At some pointd, her emotional cluelessness (lack of empathy) would strike me as so extreme that I would realize that it had literally blunted her intelligence. It was like emotional autism. She'd have a feeling or a spark of something (whether positive or negative) and she'd do so much repeating..

As though she expected her audience to react in exactly the same surprised or affected way each time, even though the material was unchanging.

Like....GroundHog Day with Mom

xo
Hops

Hey Hops.  I like the way you describe it.  Emotional cluelessness blunting her intelligence.  I've also had plenty of experience with the "repeating".  My father gets something in his head, usually from reading a book or magazine, and anybody who accidentally pushes the right button gets a repetitive speech, even if it has little to do with the current conversation and he's been through it many times before.  When he does it he often has a weird faraway look in his eyes, like he's talking only to the demons in his own head.  He definitely isn't conversing with the real others in his life.  Real others are only shadow figures who sometimes spark something in his internal dialogue.     

[gratitude28]

Yes!! That is exactly what I am talking about Hops and Silver. I have noticed it so much lately. She always did this - I know that they told the same stories over and over (and she will exagerrate the truth of the story if it does not get the response she hoped for).
I am amazed, too, when I talk to NM now and she really knows nothing about me. I lived in their house for 18 years and she does not know I dislike green beans??? That is one example, but basically anything to do with my life has no relevance to her.
This is a good topic, Sliver, because there is NO communication as far as I can tell. NM never listens to anyone and has a set idea of what she thinks the person is like, so never thinks past what she expects them to say... whether they said something that matches her ideas or not. Does that garbled sentence make any sense????

[debkor]

The other day my NFriend called.  She is as miserable mean self centered M as you could meet.  She even takes her childrens birthday money and  has them spend some on them and the rest is hers.  Lets not forget the rage of they are no good children.

They have no voice and she has no ears.  Communication modes in the Foo.  NM's never listening to anyone, as bones said the frustration of trying to communicate with one and being ingnored even when sick, injured, hiking around with a cast on leg to be ignored even for a Dr. to remove it and have the child do it themselves...Well one Child Cracked..

She spent the night with her F where NM came home after staying at B/Fs house walked in .. do this, do that, Nag, Rage, Nag, threat..I will not take you shopping with your money.  F called GM to take the. NM went nuts F told them to get in the car...kid rolled eyes.. NM went on...Kid said, you Bi**ch...F said , go...and off they went.

NM calls me crying. I was shocked!!  She is a quiet little girl who, I am shocked...and thought....Whoaaa!!  She snapped and  yelled it out... Woah!  And because the way I did the Whoa!!  NM got mad because I guess in my voice I thought ...well you ARE!!  She said I have been over rode by everyone (crying) and hung up!  I have no control. 

And still, Whoa!! 
I'm still shocked!  This child is a good kid.  The Child who takes care of the mother.  Quiet, shuts up, can't come back and never seen her act out in any kind of anger.  She just did as she was told (miserable and hurt) and then this... Whoa!

NM didn't ingnore that one.  She clearly heard and took that in.  So I don't know what happened after that. 

I'm not sure I believe her either but it is very possible. 
There will be a heavy price to pay because I know she will shame her with anyone she can.

Love
Deb

[BonesMS]

Sounds like this N is attempting to play "victim" because her child dared to stand up to her abuse.  It's aggravating when the N contacts you, whining, "Feel sorry for ME!  (Fill in the blank) is !@#$-ing me over!", when the N CREATED the mess!  N's REFUSE to accept responsibility for their own mess!  UGH!!!!   

Bones

[SilverLining]

I am amazed, too, when I talk to NM now and she really knows nothing about me. I lived in their house for 18 years and she does not know I dislike green beans??? That is one example, but basically anything to do with my life has no relevance to her.
This is a good topic, Sliver, because there is NO communication as far as I can tell. NM never listens to anyone and has a set idea of what she thinks the person is like, so never thinks past what she expects them to say... whether they said something that matches her ideas or not. Does that garbled sentence make any sense????

Hi Beth.  It makes perfect sense to me.  You go through 18 years with these people and they pick up about 18 minutes of details about you.  Then years or decades later they are still working with the same limited perceptions, and it doesn't matter how much new information you put in front of them.   Other than the most trivial details, my father knows almost nothing about me.   He seems to operate with a frozen image, developed when I was maybe 12 years old.   I suspect this lets him maintain an image of himself as dominant/superior.  In those moments when he's in a more "relational" mood (i.e. he wants something) he'll ask me the same superficial questions he's asked 10 times before.  The answers don't seem to register.    I've had better reciprocal relationships with grocery store clerks and people on airplanes.

But then when it suits him, he expects to be treated as a highly "significant" other.  All of a sudden I'll get pounded with unsolicited advice or judgements about my life, even though he hadn't bothered listening to anything I had to say for years previous.  This started when I was in my 20's and already out of the house.  I think he desperately needed to keep some kind of relationship going, for narcissistic supply, and it certainly wasn't going to be on a reciprocal adult level. 

Definitely there is no communication in this at all.  We are just expected to play our part in their little self absorbed universe. 

Your green bean example inspired a little thought experiment.  I'll bet you could name quite a few of her food preferences.  I can easily think of quite a few for my father, but I'm very confident he wouldn't be able to name any of mine, and if he did it would probably be 25 years out of date.  Not remembering a food preference in itself may be only a little thing, but multiple the small insult by hundreds of  incidents and that's the essence of relating to an N, at least in my experience.