The Gift of Betrayal/The Glue of Loyalty

[rosencrantz]

I came across this today : http://www.thegiftofbetrayal.com/introduction.shtml

Isn't this what many of us are grappling with?  We question the behaviour of the other people in our lives.  We keep on questioning it.  We get stuck.  Go round in a circle. Keep on questioning it.  Thinking we can/must/should change the other person - or that they should want to change.  And yet we know that the only person we can change is ourselves - and yet, we can't change ourselves because we don't know how to turn our back on the people who are behaving so badly because they are part of our lives, our families, our working lives - they are part of our history.  It's actually appropriate to need them - their cooperation, their respect, support, love.  We try not to need them, maybe we learn not to need them.  We find replacements in our lives.  We move on.  

But I am struck by this concept that what they have done is betrayed our trust and that it MATTERS.  

"When you've been burned, you need to treat your wound. You need to figure out how you got scorched in the first place and how to heal. Then you may begin forgiving yourself, and only yourself. As you move forward, you will figure out how to deal with the aggressor who put your hand in the fire in the first place. Only as you begin to recover and transcend your pain will you be able to begin to forgive the perpetrator. You can't do so sooner. That would be like looking over your shoulder while you were trying to walk forward. You would likely trip, fall, and maybe even break your neck. It's not about him. Your healing is about you and for you."

"You have a choice. You can see this betrayal as a curse or a blessing. You can make it about them or you can make it about you. You can be the victim, or you can take charge. You can blame them, or you can learn about yourself and move on. You can grow or shrink. You can heal your life or shrivel up and die."

The book is actually about marital betrayal - but these words seem to fit every drama I've ever experienced.  It's about THEM and their betrayal. And I've been hopping around with great big gaping wounds as a result.  I should be ignoring them - and everyone else - not worrying about how everyone else sees the situation and trying to be impervious to my wounds and hide them.

Does it make you sound a victim if you say 'that person betrayed my trust'.  Does it make you sound an idiot for saying you trusted them in the first place?  Maybe one just has to say it to oneself : I trusted that person - that's what's hurting me, that's what's damaging my self-esteem, my health, my mind - because I just can't believe they would or could do that.  Not just to me but to anyone.

Betrayal.  Betrayal of trust.  

Perhaps that's what upset me so much about the Slumdog Millionaire film - the protagonist had been betrayed so many times.  And when he won - it meant he knew at last that his destiny was - and always had been - to be betrayed by the very people he trusted.  

It's about a transaction :

I save you (create you, take you into my family, marry you, give you a job)
You trust me and offer me your loyalty in return
I (mis)use that trust and loyalty to get what I want (hurt you)
You continue to trust me and allow me to do bad things because you remain steadfastly loyal (won't hurt me).

? I don't know where that leaves me!

[sKePTiKal]

I don't know either, Rosie!

But here's a question:
is there something different about this kind of loyalty? That keeps one locked into repeated betrayals? Different than the kind of loyalty that is mirrored back to one, from the other ... as needed? Mutually provided, that is. Are there different kinds of loyalty, in the first place?

What's problematic for me, is thinking about statements like this (from my brother):

               what? you're gonna come all the way out here and not even see your own mother?

It was a business trip; not a relaxing, carefree, visit to the "folks". But I have been working on getting past my resentments, anger & wounds about my mother, so I went and saw her anyway. She didn't know me - I had to tell her who I was. Maybe she doesn't see me in her mind, with all this long silver gray hair! 

My point is, though, that my brother assumed a loyalty... that required me to see my mother because I was physically in the vicinity. What's up with that? Don't I also have a loyalty to myself... to preparing for my meeting... to rest from the long drive??? Well I think I do - but apparently, my brother doesn't. My comfort or needs didn't even register with him, as I saw very clearly on the rest of the trip and in my interactions with him.

How do we get so bound up in familial loyalties that we "suck up" any betrayals, no matter the inconvenience, discomfort, or serious hurt we experience? and furthermore... why do we always "assume" that it's our lot to just put up with this? We wouldn't from anyone else but "family"... and yet, we don't get to choose our family... and we don't always like who they are. Aren't we allowed that dislike... allowed to set reasonable boundaries about loyalty to self, first and foremost - and then CHOOSE where to bestow our loyalties? Isn't that some kind of inherent human right?

Is this some kind of stone-age, primitive, tribal or herd instinct that insists on family loyalty regardless of personal, self-betrayal?

Sorry... I'm in a pondering, out-there, rambling frame of mind today. Your post connected with something I'm working with.

[Gaining Strength]

Is this some kind of stone-age, primitive, tribal or herd instinct that insists on family loyalty regardless of personal, self-betrayal?

From where I sit today it has too do with the socialized norms and pressures.  Society expects, ney, demands that we adhere to familial loyalty.  Society denies that family can be the source of harm.  Society labels the person who decries family experience as PROBLEM.  That societal expectation is a powerful consciousness that does most of its work unconsciously or at least implicitly.

We don't see it and therefore don't easily recognize it as THE force at work.

[rosencrantz]

I don't think what you're describing is loyalty - What you felt was 'guilt-tripped' rather than loyalty.  I think what you're describing is emotional blackmail.  And you got (is this the word?) suckered!!  He didn't even have to work very hard for it!!!  You woz 'played'.

Loyalty is when you put your trust in someone and then trust them again when they let you down (cos everyone is human and makes mistakes - aren't they - and we are 'bigger' than to let petty resentments about challenging behaviour get in the way of our 'love').

Hmmm!

We need to know when the glue has become sellotape, covering the cracks!!!  We need to be smart enough to be alert to signals (without being paranoid).  It's not allowing loyalty to becomes blind faith!!

As the day has worn on, I realise how much I've been betrayed by people I've trusted.  But then...I've trusted a lot of people without even knowing them.  I've actually made assumptions with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.  It's like all the pieces have just lined up and made sense.  I've always thought I'm 'supposed' to trust people and treat them like my best buddy before I've even met them.  I've learnt never to have any expectations in return - while I'm giving my heart and soul.

What a dingbat!

[sKePTiKal]

Yes, you're right... about my brother and getting played - like a poker chip, no less!

But still - the inference was that I would be disloyal to NOT visit with my mom, even though that wasn't the reason for the trip. That it was unthinkable to put my own wishes ahead of - an "assumed" disapointment - i.e., disloyal.

In my FOO - making sure mama was happy was job #1, and the ultimate "loyalty". Much was sacrificed on that altar... and to put myself first or ahead of her - was considered disloyal.

[rosencrantz]

Perhaps the word is 'duty'???

[sKePTiKal]

Hm.

And what of her duty to me? Why is this only one way? Me to Her... instead of the other way 'round?

[rosencrantz]

When I was grapping with this issue, I could only find proclamations that said 'honour your father and mother' - nearly all were religion-based.  But then I found one that said 'no, you don't have to keep putting your head back in the noose if your parents are bad for you" - because they haven't kept their side of the bargain.  And then I got on to Alice Miller's writings and Scott Peck (The People of the Lie) and Victoria Secunda (Mothers and Daughters)

Secunda's is the ONLY book I have ever come across which includes a chapter about women who feel exactly like me : if I'd stayed I'd have ended up in a mental hospital, or dead by my own hand. Recognition that parents can be bad for you! Those women cut the cord completely and never went back.   Scott Peck also has an example from my own life (I shiver every time I think of it).

All other authors are 'in' to reconciliation and the kind of forgiveness that invites you to get destroyed.

I think I should have used a different word in the title to this thread : the QUAGMIRE of Loyalty!!

[Hopalong]

boundaries boundaries boundaries
What they're FOR, is to keep us safe and sane.

In children of Nparents, the whole boundary-setting thing can be fraught and brittle and difficult.

Of COURSE it doesn't come smoothly and intutively to us. (We were taught to be fragmented, not safely contained within a loving, responsible, self-sheath.)

But that's okay.

Even if it IS fraught and difficult and not-natural-feeling, that doesn't matter!. The MORE we practice setting boundaries that help us feel safe and sane, with no matter WHO, no matter WHAT the DNA or lack thereof...

the more natural and intuitive healthy boundary setting will eventually come to feel.

I place my faith in that. Not in "doing it right" -- just in, doing it MORE will eventually lead to doing it without fear, doubt, self-recrimination.

The idea boundary set would be a boundary set that we don't even have to think about afterward.

Because we're busy living on and being present to our busy fulfilling lives.

love
Hps

[lizzie20]

boundaries boundaries boundaries
What they're FOR, is to keep us safe and sane.

In children of Nparents, the whole boundary-setting thing can be fraught and brittle and difficult.

Of COURSE it doesn't come smoothly and intutively to us. (We were taught to be fragmented, not safely contained within a loving, responsible, self-sheath.)

But that's okay.

Even if it IS fraught and difficult and not-natural-feeling, that doesn't matter!. The MORE we practice setting boundaries that help us feel safe and sane, with no matter WHO, no matter WHAT the DNA or lack thereof...

the more natural and intuitive healthy boundary setting will eventually come to feel.

I place my faith in that. Not in "doing it right" -- just in, doing it MORE will eventually lead to doing it without fear, doubt, self-recrimination.

The idea boundary set would be a boundary set that we don't even have to think about afterward.

Because we're busy living on and being present to our busy fulfilling lives.

love
Hps

Hopalong, there are so many 'gems of wisdom' in what you say, it's a veritable Royal tiara.

The whole concept of one needing to learn about how to establish one's own healthy boundaries as an adult automatically reflects the sadly obvious. That one's boundaries have been repeatedly violated at some time past or present.

The awareness of the need displays tremendous self-awareness.  Solid boundaries are vital in determining what constitutes a healthy relationship.

One example of a particular 'set-in-rock' boundary I have is that I don't speak with clients, customers or associates on the phone during evening meals, on week-ends or on holidays. I am very strict with myself regarding this. I have made my associates very aware of this, " Only call when I'm with my family if it's a life or death situation, otherwise I'll surely hang-up".

There were been many attempts in the past on the part of others to engage me at these times, thereby satisfying their own infantile need to feel important, believing that these personal family boundaries of mine are for others & not for them, attempting to place themselves in a position of perceived importance. This is not meant to imply that I am by any means an important person, because I am not. I simply have a role which demands I be in contact with a diverse range of people from different industries, & levels within those industries. 

I believe that in the process of respecting ourselves, our word & our own personal boundaries, we are acting as our own best friend, protector & greatest supporter. We can very easily determine whether we are dealing with a respectful person when we have healthy boundaries in place.

Respectful people will respect my boundaries without challenge. I believe it is vitally important that we be our own best friend, & having boundaries is an important part of that.

Lizzie20

[rosencrantz]

I know how to set that kind of boundary  - I think of the term 'tough love'.   I probably have to rethink it when new kinds of relationships arise but I know what I'm dealing iwth.  Interesting relationship with 'respect'...very important.

But how do you set boundaries when you are trying to engage with someone who doesn't want to engage.  Boundaries mean 'cutting off'.  We open boundaries to reach out to engage.  Sometimes we can't just say 'not playing'.  I've been severely bruised by my husband but only my mother and my mother's care home manager have had such a traumatic effect on me.  In both situations I've been reaching out, trying to work with them.  I know my mother was afraid and had no idea of the impact she was having on me.  Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of their behaviour, how do you maintain sanity/boundaries with destructive people you are obliged to grapple with?

I think perhaps I did set some boundaries - I refused to get caught up in arguments (manager seemed determined to force me into arguments over things I wasn't remotely interested in) - but every time I refused to play a game, she escalated it all to a new level.  How can you stop what you can't see?!

Perhaps the boundary is 'I refuse to be manipulated' - but I never see it coming til it's far, far too late!!!  Groooooaaaaaaaannnn!

[sKePTiKal]

Hey Rose, my last post evaporated due to power outage.

I am learning that boundaries aren't just to keep people out... they are also how we connect to others. The "trick" to that, is finding a place in someone else's boundary where you are allowed in, as a guest. Sort of a shared space.

But I think what you're looking for here, are the keys to understanding what I call "mind-games". Manipulation. How to see the clues that people unconsciously leave through statements or body language when a game is beginning... so that you don't get "hooked" into playing the game. Some of that, I think, depends on our own "scripting"... the roles we've been trained to play - and the unconscious clues/cues that we present in situations.

I've just been through one of these and have gone back through it with a fine-toothed comb. And the whole thing could've been avoided, if I'd just been self-aware enough - in that moment - to hear the trumpet calling the horses to the starting post: my own script getting engaged... I took the bait innocently enough: I cared about someone's feelings and felt I had a bit of responsibility for those feelings (uh....... right.... I felt guilty). The "game" got initiated because I decided to act on that guilt and I took on responsibility in a situation... that a.) wasn't mine for the taking and b.) would be better handled by the original owner of the responsibility, who was more impartial.

And they're off... the game was afoot. Accusations, assumptions, bad-guys.... the hot-potato of blame...

That situation was one where I was dealing with everyone at a distance - phone and email. When I engaged with everyone in person, I began to "wake up" about what was really happening; who was the protagonist; the purported "causes" and "whys"... but then it took another couple of weeks for me to see how it all began... the "clue" that started the whole mess.

And the clue was right inside me. By jumping to the bait - hooking into my pattern of "it's all my fault - I have to do something" the initiator(s) engaged me in the game-playing. But that's OK... even knowing that I might have been able to stop this by NOT engaging in the game, only after the fact, was a good lesson. If I'd not played, the game might've stopped - but it might've changed, too... and I might've not been (but needed to be) part of the process that contained the game. And it does come back sort of, to boundaries...

I'm not responsible for anyone else's feelings.
I do have to be responsible for my own - and not all of them deserve to be acted upon.
I am very quick to blame the "bad guy(s)" in a situation, along with the "consensus" opinion... the people that blame is pointed at by the game-players... but when all the pieces of a situation are examined factually - leaving the feelings aside - it usually turns out the real initiator was someone else. The "bad guy" in this particular game was set up by someone else; other circumstances... to take the blame for another game player-manipulator. There was "history" between 2 of the other game-players.

And the initiator of the game? Well, when all is said and done, if I were in his shoes... I might've acted and felt just like him. I s'pose that's another way I get hooked. He was playing victim and had all the "evidence" to prove it... and I could relate.

It would be my preference, if there were no games like this - especially in business! I don't like them, but if I'm aware of what's going on, I can play with the "big boys". This time, I just didn't catch on to what was going on, quick enough. But I do know now, and will make sure this doesn't become a pattern; I won't let it get established. It's almost better that the situation was played out this way, because I now I know what to be aware of in the future.

I guess, that in human interaction, there will always be these kinds of "games"... I am aware of some of mine and I do resort to these (mostly unsuccessfully) from time to time, just out of habit and conditioning. But I really don't like them when they're mine! It usually means I'm not expressing my needs directly because I'm scared of the outcome, the possible "no" from the person able to meet my needs or grant my request.

[rosencrantz]

Thanks for sharing that.  I deal with people at a distance too. 

I had a note from the solicitor yesterday - and I spoke to his secretary today.  What was totally refreshing was they felt 'normal'.  No harshness, no issues, no irrational stuff going on, no power games.

I've had a couple of emails from someone I work with - he's let me down so often : year after year after year he's played the same game - I called it a 'dance'. I tried all sorts of ways to engage without getting hooked into the same old outcome.  Finally I stopped talking to him.  And then he 'really understood' - at long last and more promises were made - but the game continued to be played out.  We talked more - same conclusion.

If I tell him 'do this now' then he does it - but if I trust him to do something, then you can be sure it won't happen.  I know that now for a fact.  He has admitted that passive aggressive behaviour is part of his make-up.

I received a hook this morning. Basically 'I don't know what you want'.  I don't know what to do other than ignore him. The word 'disingenuous' comes to mind.  I know that even feeding back that I feel he is being disingenuous would just hook me in - we'd be off on that dance again. 

It's not just him.  How to escape?  I envisage becoming a terrible towering monster dragging myself out of this morass I have been pulled into and sucked under. It's like some undercurrant of humanity that sucks the life out of you.  Is it where all the naysayers want the rest of us to end up  - shut up and stuck?  The only way to return to normal is to ignore them.  Make them into a bad smell.  Not even think about them.  Not analyse anything.  Just ignore it. Analysing does nothing - understanding doesn't result in changes. I am adult enough to have tried to work in an interdependent way - they are not.  I can't change that.  I can't teach them - it's a waste of my time.

I am misguided if I think I 'need' anyone or need anyone's cooperation.  If they don't play a positive game then dispense with them as speedily as possible, go round, go over.  Bring in other resources.  I had other resources but somehow ALL these people - over time - have undermined me and isolated me by playing on my feelings of guilt and shame which makes me hide away.

I saw an interview of someone once who had been involved in something years ago that could have left her feeling embarrassed and ashamed - she showed none of it and I admired her. It's what I aspire to.  But even the most minor of challenges make me feel ashamed and send me into hiding!!  I have never hated my mother - although I've feared her impact on my sanity and soul 'integrity' - but I think I begin now to hate her, to feel disgusted, for how she treated me as a child simply because I didn't deserve to be treated in that way AND because I'm fighting such a losing battle to get beyond it.  She shamed me.  Often.  People say I'm talented and don't know why I dont succeed better - and she is the reason.  Forget all the ways she showed resentment and jealousy, built me up to bring me down - all of which I understand.  I also understand that the way she shamed me was inevitable taking into account her problems and not intended to shame me.  But as a child I had no resources to understand.  And that's what I didn't deserve.  *I* didn't deserve it.  I still don't deserve to be made to feel ashamed -  but I guess someone else wouldn't feel ashamed.  I am so tired of struggling with it all.  I don't know how you stop feeling ashamed.

[sKePTiKal]

Hi Rose,

I don't know what to say. I'm a little puzzled about what it is you want from these other people, what you're hoping for, beyond not feeling ashamed yourself. I guess maybe you are too? So, I'm saying I heard you... and I need a little time to think about what you wrote before really responding.

Hope you're having a better day today!

[Hopalong]

Hey Rose,

I think you need to practice with your self-talk not shaming yourself.

You are angry with others, but what runs through I think is rage at yourself.

You're only a human being.

You've been doing the best you know how to do.

As you are able to lift up another new piece (and set an old piece down), you'll do better.

NOBODY can wave a wand and rebalance themselves emotionally in an instant.
Be kinder to yourself. Literally. Put your arms gently around yourself, rock, say gentle things.
Do that often, I think it'll help.

Guilt and shame are regulators, showing us course corrections.
If we feel appropriate guilt or shame, then we say to ourselves:
I've made a mistake. I want to do what I can to amend it.
Then release it.

If we feel toxic shame, we say to ourselves:
I am the mistake.
And it swirls up over and over.

You know that's not true.

love,
Hops