Author Topic: Gaslighting  (Read 5778 times)

Ami

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2009, 03:47:25 PM »
Wowser Ann. That was brilliant!           xxoo   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

seasons

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2009, 11:04:13 PM »
Ditto!

Thank you Ann :)
"Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak Kindly. Leave the Rest to God."
Maya Angelou

ann3

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2009, 12:10:09 AM »
You guys are sooo welcome!!

I thought it was a great description & discussion.

HeartofPilgrimage

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2009, 08:56:24 PM »
Hi everybody,

I especially liked what ann3 said towards the end of her post about not seeing ourselves as victims (or something to that effect). Once we realize what has been happening then it becomes our responsibility to decide what to do about it (sometimes people choose to do nothing but that is still a choice).

I believe also what you said about women usually being the victims and men usually being the perpetrators --- in the big picture, that is true, but it was not true in my case. Out of my husband and I's four parents, only my dad was not a narcissist. And of the three other parents, only his dad seems to have some sense of shame when he misbehaves. The two moms are shameless. Actually, I wonder if the manifestation of narcissism in women is just different so that it's not as recognized. I also wonder if borderline personality disorder (which is the most common personality disorder in women, and also the most associated with a history of childhood abuse) is related to having a narcissistic mother. I don't have BPD (for the record) but have in the past had intense emotional swings, probably related to having to get "all worked up" to get my mother to pay attention. It took me a long time to change that pattern.

Also, i do believe that understanding how narcissism develops is helpful, but not so that you can then feel more guilty when and if you go no contact, or to then feel guilty for setting boundaries or rules with them. I think it's helpful so that you can work on letting go of the rage, which binds you to them. I have dramatically cut back on contact with both my mother and my mother in law (my in laws are divorced, and my husband is practically no contact with his father anyway, so that wasn't really an issue). So that's why I sound all calm and forgiving in this post  :wink: ... But that's not to say I won't get infuriated again next time one of them acts ugly!

Ami

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2009, 08:17:35 AM »
Dear Heart of Pilgrimmage,
 I have had No Contact for 6 months. I feel so differently. I never realized how much intensity my NM  had to trap me, motionless and paralyzed ,in her web.
 The NM is from the Twilight Zone. She is evil.
 I am just starting to see and feel what really happened. With that, I am seeing that it was them(my parents are a team even though my F is "sweet").
 I was the victim . It was not my fault.           Love   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

HeartofPilgrimage

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2009, 01:23:08 PM »
Hi Ami,
I'm glad going no contact is helping you! From what I read here on the message board, most adult children of narcissists feel lots better once they decide to do that. Good, good, good for you, for taking responsibility for your own emotional health. You are also such a warm support on this board; even though I don't post much I read what you have written and can sense your warmth. You can't fake that kind of warmth ...

I know what you mean about the parents being a team. I always felt like together, my parents constituted some kind of force of nature. As I said before, my dad was not a narcissist, but I'm beginning to see that dealing with my mom for almost 50 years is a lot of what made him so stubborn and hardheaded about his own opinions. I think he had to fight hard in that marriage to think for himself, and in the process he became pretty overbearing about imposing his opinions on me. The difference between him and a narcissist though is that he could see my point of view, DID NOT gaslight, could admit his own faults and failings, and could consider various points of view with other people too. But, he was really really opinionated, and I think that dealing with my mom made him very stubborn and argumentative. I remember throughout my childhood them having big fights because he would say she was "talking down" to him. My mom would dismiss his complaints as "he feels bad about himself because all he went through as a child" --- for example, he was dyslexic and was in school before anybody knew what dyslexia was, and learned to hate school and to resent having to read (ironic --- he became the best schoolteacher ever! He could empathize with struggling children). I guess you can tell how much I loved him and how much I miss him now. But I had to keep him at arm's length as an adult, because he would try to step in and tell me what to do and "solve my problems". After 4 years of dealing with my mom after his death, I have a much greater understanding of how he ended up that way. But --- but --- but --- everyone in my family will tell you he kept my mother on a short leash and under control. Of course you can't control  ANYBODY completely but she's so much worse now that I have become completely admiring of what he did for almost 50 years.

One of the most important things I think my dad taught me (especially when dealing with narcissists) is the ability to laugh at myself. He would tell funny stories about the klutzy or goofy things he did, and I do the same thing. I learned that there is no shame in making mistakes, even stupid ones! In fact, telling them to others can make other people laugh, which increases the happiness in the world, I think! On purpose broadcasting the crazy things you've done is like the polar opposite of narcissism!

I feel for you, Ami, in that your father is "sweet" but enables your mom. My dad probably did that too, but I've seen it happen in a much worse way with my aunt and uncle. My aunt is my mom's sister. My uncle, now in his 90s, gave up having an opinion on anything long ago. He totally acquiesced to her long long ago. The whole family has always revolved around her. Somebody posted a poll on this board about what you think your parent would do if there was only one life jacket and the boat was going down --- well, in my aunt's case, WE KNOW WHAT SHE WOULD DO. My mom (yes, it is ironic my mom told this story) said once my aunt, uncle, and two cousins (children at the time), and my teenage mom,  were in a little rowboat and it started taking in water. My aunt started screaming and grabbed the one life jacket and put it on! I couldn't believe it when I saw that question on the poll! My uncle is sweet too --- when I was a preschooler he would come and get me just to play all the time, I have many happy memories of him as a child. But his total acquiescence was equal to throwing his children to the wolves. Basically their daughter has been no contact for over 30 years. The son survived very much like my dad --- non-narcissistic but extremely opinionated and stubborn.

I don't know what the heck my grandparents did or didn't do, but they seem to have done a serious number on both of their daughters! But then again, to go back to what Ann3 said, both daughters had choices and they made them all by themselves.

Last time I posted I said I'd be less calm and forgiving the next time my mom made me mad, and it already happened (I only posted yesterday!). She called me this morning and in the course of the conversation I said something like, "My husband took the kids on a little trip this weekend so I could work, I've had them all summer" to which she replied, "No you have not had them all summer." She said my daughter has been working and she took my son for two weeks, so I have not had them all summer. Why does she have this weird need to tell me I don't experience what I experience? This was not even the point of what I said, which I think any idiot could have figured out. The point was, my whole summer has revolved around taking the kids places (including my daughter to her job!) and I needed a couple of days to work!

I didn't say anything, but I'm wondering if people on this forum think I should call her on her gaslighting every time, if they think it will make her back off. In fact, this question is the main point of me giving you such a long story about how my dad kept her in line. She has gotten better since I've confronted her about her gaslighting, but I'm wondering if I don't keep her intimidated if she will start getting bad again.

For the most part, I think taking offense to everything a person says is just wasting energy. But, I have also discovered that confronting my mom shames her into at least shutting up for awhile.

Izzy_*now*

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2009, 01:30:56 PM »
Great thread, greats posts.

From Heart
The problem is that we have been in relationship with people who don't want to co-construct reality, they want the construction of reality all to themselves, and then they want us to acquiesce to their version.


That describes my N sister to a T, and if anyone read where I said I have but one sister with whom I can re-construct,  we are having many more open e-conversations. We recall an incident from away back, then what our perception of it was. We disagree, but that’s okay, because we are different people. The problem all round with the siblings is that we never shared feelings from day one, and now we all live in our own reality but only the two of us are comparing, being all brought up together.. To me there is but the one N amongst the siblings.

How about ‘gaslighting’  without words?  Like my father’s narcissistic rages, without empathy for children or animals, then beat us. I am surmising that instilled fear in me and the lack of worth. That would be topped off with my mother not ‘protecting’ me.

Now the 4 siblings safely ensconced in marriage with children and grandchildren have not discussed this part amongst ourselves. Part of that is because I was their scapegoat, (now words were used here) but now we are all over 65 and there is just one sister and me comparing thoughts, memories. She is being far more open than ever before, and I am the one alone.

(I wonder if I have always had the wrong perception of 'safety in a marriage". Each married in 1956, 1957, 1962, and 1967  and my common-law H beat me. I could be away off base about what goes on behind their closed doors.  Anyone agree?)

I might be alone, but not lonely, feel better with the NC I put into effect and would only re-connect with others if they, too, would re-construct on an honest basis and respect my perception as well.

Make any sense?
Izzy

(If I sound incoherent, it might be that after 4 months, I am still in pain and craving sleep, but hating to go to bed as there the pain is worse than sitting and has warped my mind.)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 01:35:52 PM by Izzy_*now* »
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

Ami

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2009, 03:39:12 PM »
Dear Heartof Pilgrimmage
 Your words made me cry. Thank you!      Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

teartracks

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2009, 07:38:51 PM »


Hi everyone,

Thought this article might be of interest.

The article is long.  Point #6 addresses narcissistic gaslighting.

Characteristics of narcissistic mothersNarcissists gaslight routinely. The narcissist will either insinuate or will tell .... Not all narcissists abuse physically, but most do, often in subtle, ...
www.geocities.com/zpg1957/narcissists.htm - Cached - Similar

tt
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 07:55:47 PM by teartracks »

DOBA

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2009, 08:47:43 PM »
I am new to the board.  I was raised by 2 N parents and then married an N man.  Professionally, I am a hospice social worker who specializes in providing grief and bereavement therapy, but in my personal life, nothing ever made sense.  I have 5 other siblings and it was not until our father died in 2008 that we got together to really talk about our experiences and check out others perceptions.  All of us suffer from anxiety and depression problems, 2 have had substance abuse problems, all of us have poor self-esteem, we're people pleasers and overachievers.  The hardest thing I ever did was to seek out "truth" in my life by journaling facts, my perceptions of the event and then actually going into therapy to check my grasp on reality.  It turned out to be the wisest thing I've ever done!  I'm now in the process of divorcing abusive N. spouse, who still insists that "I'm exaggerating things to get attention and I have an overactive imagination."  What I have, is a clear vision of reality and the fact that my life does not line up with what I know to be healthy.  I finally feel like I have incorporated all that free-floating "stuff" into visceral feelings that have a name and a purpose.  I feel like I'm waking up from a long coma and rediscovering life.  The future looks promising, I grieve what I've lost but will not waste any more of my life trying to "understand" lies and manipulations.

Ami

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2009, 09:21:43 PM »
That article is SOOOOO depressing but so true. More than anything, I want a loving M. That has been my dream, always has been maybe always will be but that article KNOWS the NM.
 That is how it is. YUCH!     Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

teartracks

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2009, 11:52:15 PM »

Hi DOBA,

I feel like I'm waking up from a long coma and rediscovering life.  The future looks promising, I grieve what I've lost but will not waste any more of my life trying to "understand" lies and manipulations.

Welcome to the board.  :-)  

I relate to all you have said, the coma, the rediscovering life, the future, and the grieving.  Unearthing our own truth can be daunting and time consuming, but it's so much better than 'the before'!  I like the determination I hear in your post!  All the best to you!

tt



Leah

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Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2009, 07:46:01 AM »

I am new to the board.  I was raised by 2 N parents and then married an N man.  Professionally, I am a hospice social worker who specializes in providing grief and bereavement therapy, but in my personal life, nothing ever made sense.  I have 5 other siblings and it was not until our father died in 2008 that we got together to really talk about our experiences and check out others perceptions.  All of us suffer from anxiety and depression problems, 2 have had substance abuse problems, all of us have poor self-esteem, we're people pleasers and overachievers.  The hardest thing I ever did was to seek out "truth" in my life by journaling facts, my perceptions of the event and then actually going into therapy to check my grasp on reality.  It turned out to be the wisest thing I've ever done!  I'm now in the process of divorcing abusive N. spouse, who still insists that "I'm exaggerating things to get attention and I have an overactive imagination."  What I have, is a clear vision of reality and the fact that my life does not line up with what I know to be healthy.  I finally feel like I have incorporated all that free-floating "stuff" into visceral feelings that have a name and a purpose.  I feel like I'm waking up from a long coma and rediscovering life.  The future looks promising, I grieve what I've lost but will not waste any more of my life trying to "understand" lies and manipulations.



Hello DOBA,  

Truly, I do so resonate with your life story account.

Indeed, my professional life was "crystal clear" yet my personal life was "a muddy mystery"


The grieving is quite significant, though I was somewhat perplexed at the time upon hearing the suggestion presented to me as of "bereavement counselling," however, it was most beneficial, indeed, there is a real deep need to "grieve that which is lost" - there is a grieving process, as I realized thereafter.


I feel like I'm waking up from a long coma and rediscovering life.  The future looks promising, I grieve what I've lost but will not waste any more of my life trying to "understand" lies and manipulations.

Absolutely!   Waking up from a long coma and rediscovering life - YES!    :)

In April 2008,  I shared here on board of the veil lifting, having read "The Gaslight Effect - How to Spot and Survive the Hidden Manipulation Others Use to Control Your Life" by Dr. Robin Stern .
  
Along with other 'Gaslighting' information i.e. "Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers" and "Eight Ways to Spot Emotional Manipulation"


Honestly, from that point onward, my life has been "altogether" different, joyful, and likewise, now, I refuse to waste my life trying to, as you so wonderfully express, "understand" abusive lies and manipulations.


Life is truly - much too short!


The others who choose to lie and manipulate, distort another person's reality, for whatever reason lies within their own heart, are, after all, living their life, as per their own motivational reasoning.


Today, my voice is that of;  choose to break free and remain free : for a life!


Amazingly, my abusive Nparents simply fizzled away into the distance - as of their own choice : as a result of my brand new clear voice.    (they know, I know!!)


The battle for reality is won.  


And yes, the future is promising : a life worth living.


Sincerely,


Love to ((( all )))


 Leah x


And, May God Bless You ((( all )))    [whom I give thanks to, with a grateful heart].
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 09:11:45 PM by JoyousDiscerner »
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO