If I am not for Myself Who am I ?If I am only for myself What am I?

[Ami]

Go on her website. She has reader's mail. I have written 3-4 letters to her .
 You will see from her responses what type of person she is.  Let me know if you do.
 I think her  easiest book to start with is "Your Body Never Lies". She says that we HAVE the blueprint for healing within us by accessing our feelings(following our hearts as we did as children).
 The Enlightened Witness just walks next to us b/c it is too painful alone. I am excited that you are gonna check her out, Helen!   Ami

[Portia]

Ami, re Alice Miller, I read 'the drama of being a child' (or the drama of the gifted child) and have re-read it recently. There's more in there with each read, it goes deeper each time! And it's a tiny book really, small but very deep.

[Ami]

Yes, Portia it is one of the deepest ones but very profound. Have you read any others?               Ami

[Gabben]

This quote summarizes where I am now.
I have taken a little steps away from my NM and BOY was I enmeshed . My very cells were entwined with hers. My breath, heart ,soul etc were enmeshed as if she and I were one--horrible, psychic twins.
 By forcing myself out of isolation and having a person to come to when I come falling down, I have started to break some distortions.
 Today, I saw the enmeshment for the first time, with my heart and gut.
  I have not been for myself. I have been for HER, always having to be first and foremost for her.
 I was some inconsequntial thing that had to be fed and watered so I could go forth and be for her, again.      Ami

This is a powerful truthful insight. I have these same kind of enmeshment visuals about just how enmeshed as a child I was in fear; I was bound up in fear so tightly. Ami, my body still carries all of these fears, but I have been also carrying around a lot of judgement around my fears and lack of faith. That judgement beats me over the head telling me to loosen up and let go, almost screaming it in my ear which just scares me even more.

I've been reflecting on how we cannot overcome ourselves, we have to have help, we have to have love. Self cannot overcome self. I say that a lot to myself, but it is so necessary to remind myself and understand that we alone cannot change ourselves, we have to have grace.

Lise

[Gabben]

On the subject of envy  here on the thread, (BTW: The study of envy fascinates me?? I do not know why)

Envy can be defined as the feelings of sorrow/loss at another's gain or good. Envy has an existential element about it that is just a lie, in a sense.  There is an antedote to envy which is admiration and appreciation for the good of others and their successes. Not easy, but just one practice can begin to change a heart. If you have a hard time seeing or looking at someone or others successes then that is envy turning you away, you are depriving yourself of their joy and goodness. Sort of like Cinderella having to sleep in the tower...away and out of sight from the other sisters who just could not even bare to look upon her because of her goodness and the sorrow they felt at that perceived loss.

Don't get me started...

[Meh]

Ami,

Are you trying to find your identity when you are by yourself or in relation to groups, or both?
I guess a person's individual identity does cross over into their group identity.
Have you ever noticed that some people have different identities depending on what group they are with?

Are you trying to figure out what types of friends you want now that you have gone through some personal shifts?

[Ami]

Helen,
 You have such an interest in the world and other people. I can tell by the questions you ask.Thank you for asking, Helen. While I am typing 10 people are in my hoouse watching Golf.
 Sports are  boring to me and the woman were talking about dogs so  I  to came on the computer .
 I think I have to find me, first, definately.
 I have tried to find the right people but *I* was not the right person.
 I did have wonderful people in my life  but *I* was so cycling in craziness from my NM( distortions about myself) that wherever I went, I went and ruined it.
 I had a little fun today saying a few crazy things and having some laughs.
  I see much better though that I have to BE the right person to have a happy life not find the right people.
        XXXXOOOOO  Ami

[Meh]

If you are having fun Ami, I think that is a very good sign.

[Ami]

I have a lot to write about what I learned today but feel too vulnerable to write so will do so later! Thanks Helen for your posts!     Ami

[Portia]

Ami, Alice Miller. I've read a few. I first bought 'Thou Shalt Not Be Aware: Society's Betrayal of the Child' and that blew my mind, at the time. Also have 'The Untouched Key: Tracing Childhood Trauma in Creativity and Destructiveness' and have read: 'Breaking Down the Wall of Silence', 'Paths of Life: Seven Scenarios' which i thought was so simple, and complex. Important works. Not readily-accepted ideas. Her empathy is immense. Her ideas so...strong.

[Ami]

Ami, Alice Miller. I've read a few. I first bought 'Thou Shalt Not Be Aware: Society's Betrayal of the Child' and that blew my mind, at the time. Also have 'The Untouched Key: Tracing Childhood Trauma in Creativity and Destructiveness' and have read: 'Breaking Down the Wall of Silence', 'Paths of Life: Seven Scenarios' which i thought was so simple, and complex. Important works. Not readily-accepted ideas. Her empathy is immense. Her ideas so...strong.

She seems like a very independent thinker who bucked the system and got punished for it but was true to herself. That is about as good as it gets!           Ami

[Portia]

Gabben, about envy. Your words about:

If you have a hard time seeing or looking at someone or others successes then that is envy turning you away, you are depriving yourself of their joy and goodness.

Is it possible that when looking at someone or others successes, you (one) are only seeing that which you want to see? And that those 'successes' may not be as enviable as they seem to you? For example, I really don't want to be Madonna or David Beckham. I can imagine parts of their lives that i really don't want (or I could imagine just the 'fun' bits and be envious, perhaps...).

I have a hard time when I realise that people are envious of me. I get shocked. I think: you're seeing what you want to see, you're not seeing me. Walk a few yards in my shoes and then tell me you're envious.

Is envy just a projection? The grass is always greener until you jump the fence. People don't count their blessings enough!

I'm not sure envy necessarily deprives the envious one of others joy and goodness: I think it can also/instead deprive the envious one of their own joy and goodness, which is waiting to be found.  ?

[Portia]

Ah Ami    I hope Alice Miller is content in herself, I really do. I often think about the authors when I'm reading and something strikes me,and I wonder, do they still think this now, have they changed...? etc. I read a lot of Dorothy Rowe too and I occasionally wonder about her. I spend too much time wondering about other people!! Not really. These authors are like friends to me.

[Gabben]

Hi Portia,

I really don't want to be Madonna or David Beckham.

ditto. LOL.

I have a hard time when I realise that people are envious of me. I get shocked. I think: you're seeing what you want to see, you're not seeing me. Walk a few yards in my shoes and then tell me you're envious.

All I can share with you is my own take and experience as well as what I have read in books, if envy interests you I would take the time to study the emotion. Here is a book on envy that I have loved (the grown up version of the fairy tale expose): Cinderella and Her Sisters: The Envying And The Envying[/i] by Ann & Barry Ulanov. Understanding envy more deeply can open up all kinds of doors to higher understanding. It is a powerful emotion that we all process to one degree or another. When I began to study envy, taking ownership for what I lacked in envy or how much I carried envy I grew and found a new level of happiness and self understanding.

Since my youth I  have carried a low self image and low self-esteem partly created out of my negative FOO belief system; blinded by my own low self image I could not see that others were envious of me..."for what?" I would ask myself. It was always hard for me to understand why when other women were cold to me, shutting me out or gossiping about me that is was because they might be envious,  I did not like myself and felt that there was no reason for anyone to ever be envious of me. It took growth and self exploration for me to understand that I was a "good" person, that goodness in me was what others envied. People are most envious of good character, deep down we all know just how hard that is to posses, good character.

It took a long time for me, years, to develop an understanding that I had a good heart, not to blow my own horn, that goodness was something I worked to develop over the years having learned that good character was more important than anything else, including fashion -- lol. I am the kind of person who much prefers to get to know other women, care about each other and develop close friendships; I'm a very noncompetitive spirit when it come to female friendships and love.

Is envy just a projection? The grass is always greener until you jump the fence. People don't count their blessings enough!

Envy is an emotion that becomes a projection, the most widely projected emotion, in my estimate, because so very few want to actually have to claim it; therefore, better or less painful to stare at envy in someone else, or pawn it off on someone else.

The grass is always greener until you jump the fence. People don't count their blessings enough!

True. Some of the most envious women I have known are also the most talented and naturally gifted and outwardly beautiful. I imagine that if they were able to take responsibility for some inside thought processes and behaviors they might also be beautiful on the inside too.

I'm not sure envy necessarily deprives the envious one of others joy and goodness: I think it can also/instead deprive the envious one of their own joy and goodness, which is waiting to be found.  ?

Yep... Envy deprives when it becomes malicious, meaning acted on envy in the form of say back stabbing, spreading untrue or true rumors as a form of covert relational aggression, stealing..etc., there is a saying that envy steals charity, envy wishes to rob others of their goodness, or joy. It is the deprivation that the envy feels that wishes to rob and steal from others.

Lise

[Portia]

Wow, thank you Lise. Been studying your reply, mulling and agreeing to myself. I need educating on this topic for sure. Just ordered the book (Amazon marketplace, bargain). This is eye-opening stuff. I have always struggled with envy.

Some of the most envious women I have known are also the most talented and naturally gifted and outwardly beautiful.

Isn't this the case. I once heard a very famous, rich, successful, beautiful film actress talking on TV about her father (also a famous actor). She mentioned seeing some overweight, happy women dancing and having fun, and said it struck her,watching them dance: "I bet their Daddies loved them." not said in a sad way, but with bitterness. Very sad. And she's done a fair bit of 'work' I think. You just want to grab her and say, you're lovable, look at yourself, you're wonderful. She is, too.

Wow! Serious coincidence occuring as i type. I've been remembering images from the film Barbarella, for a few days now. Where she's in the Mathmos towards the end and the Great Tyrant says: "It seems the Mathmos has created this bubble to protect itself from your innocence. You are so good, you made the Mathmos vomit."
Incredible.