Are there ANY men out there like me who survived and thrived?

[HeartofPilgrimage]

Yes, thanks, polymath, for this thread. I am not a narcissist, but was raised by a NMother, and now am having to see that my son is struggling with many of the same issues that adult children of narcissists deal with ... I think because my parents were so in my head when he was little that I smothered and hyper-parented ... but also, maybe there are other things going on that have nothing to do with me. It's not, after all, all about me. My other kids seem healthier, maybe at least in part because I began to grow up as I had them and raised them. It's the oldest that is struggling. I still want to fix all of his problems. He has pulled away from our family completely. I have had to allow him to do that. I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to show him I will always be there for him without overdoing it. Your post helped shake me back to the reality that I poured a lot of good things into my son, and that he will find his way, and that me trying too hard will probably slow down the process of him finding his own way. I believe in prayer, and I think that praying hard for him is probably the best and only thing I can do for him right now, and it is the way I can pour good things into him without shortcircuiting the process of him finding his own way. Thanks, Polymath, for an important reminder that helped my heart to know that the way that I have chosen --- backing off --- is the right decision.

[mudpuppy]

Yeah, my whole idea behind finding a guy who's been through my situation is really just to get an example to follow to give me hope.

The best hope comes from doing something yourself not seeing someone else do it, no?
Hanging around healthy people, regardless of how they got there, seems to me the best way to learn or relearn healthy habits.
And that I suspect involves your own personal will. Nobody can pull you there no matter how well meaning either of you are. You have to put one foot in front of the other (and occasionally fall over) to break out of the mindset that's holding you back; seems an incremental process from what I've seen.
The only non-incremental, shazamm type healings of people I've seen were God things, but that's another, sometimes contentious, subject.

mud

[polymath]

yeah mud, thats what I'm most afraid of, that there's no therapy/meds combo that can get me jump started.

This is so deep. God I know this sounds like the world's biggest pity party, its just that I can't seem to find a man who is still around at my age to simply say, "hey, I came up spoiled and hovered and unconditionally loved by my mom who left my alcoholic father but never reconnected with another man out of fear, just came home after work, lived like a hermit and leaned on me to be her little man."

[Portia]

Mud, I like this: The best hope comes from doing something yourself

and Polymath you said :  there's no therapy/meds combo that can get me jump started

made me think. Is therapy like putting some magic pill into you? Does it add to you/ is a separate thing, to you?

Or does therapy take away from you (take away all the accumulated rubbish) - and doesn't it necessarily hurt like hell?

I reckon therapy is more like an assault course for the brain.

[Ami]

Yeah, my whole idea behind finding a guy who's been through my situation is really just to get an example to follow to give me hope.

The best hope comes from doing something yourself not seeing someone else do it, no?
Hanging around healthy people, regardless of how they got there, seems to me the best way to learn or relearn healthy habits.
And that I suspect involves your own personal will. Nobody can pull you there no matter how well meaning either of you are. You have to put one foot in front of the other (and occasionally fall over) to break out of the mindset that's holding you back; seems an incremental process from what I've seen.
The only non-incremental, shazamm type healings of people I've seen were God things, but that's another, sometimes contentious, subject.

mud

Dear Mud
 I completely disagree with this post. When a person is struggling with life and death issues----"Snap out of it" or "Pull Yourself Up By Your Bootstraps" just engenders more guilt and self loathing. The person  already is burderned by too much guilt and self hatred.That is how they got there in the first place.
  I have never seen it work for a hurting person ,myself included.Hope IS something that works.
 That is my  opinion. I don't care to debate it but just wanted to express it.         Am

[HeartofPilgrimage]

I think there are more women than men on this forum mainly because women like to talk more than men (as a group, yes I know this doesn't hold water for individuals). This imbalance does not mean that there are not men out there that have survived. Again, I'm a girl not a guy. But just because we are more visible on a forum like this does not mean that we have survived in greater numbers or even with better quality of life. THERE IS ALWAYS HOPE. THERE IS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS HOPE. The only reason we even say that there is little or no hope for narcisssists is that a key part of their problem is not being able to recognize they have a problem.

Remember the famous story of when Winston Churchill was invited to give a commencement address after WWII (I think it was at West Point, but not sure)? His ENTIRE SPEECH consisted of the following: Gentlemen, NEVAH, NEVAH, NEVAH give up. And then he sat down.

You're alive, so there's hope. You're thinking, so there's hope. You're feeling, so there's hope.
And, regarding the disagreement among board members about whether the "bootstrap mentality" is helpful or not --- it really all depends upon the place you're in. If you find it helpful, take it and run with it! If you don't, it's OK, find something you do find helpful. But there is always hope.  You WILL find something that helps.

[mudpuppy]

When a person is struggling with life and death issues----"Snap out of it" or "Pull Yourself Up By Your Bootstraps" just engenders more guilt and self loathing.

I didn't suggest polymath snap out of it or pull himself up by his own bootstraps.
I suggested that rather than look for someone who has suffered through similar circumstances he simply associate with healthy people no matter how they are or became healthy; in addition to his therapy of course, if he feels it is helping.
By such a process he might incrementally be able to internalize more healthy thoughts and habits, because ultimately mental health seems to me an internal process.
None of what I suggested places blame on polymath for his predicament. But neither do I think limiting who his support group should be to some guy his age who he can read about or talk to online and who has suffered similarly and prevailed is going to be likely to occur or productive.
It's like the old saw about normal families all being normal in the same way, but every dysfunctional one being different. Healthy people are basically pretty similar and it doesn't matter how they got there.
To the extent a healthy thought process can be learned simply being around them is what counts.

mud

[Ami]

When a person is struggling with life and death issues----"Snap out of it" or "Pull Yourself Up By Your Bootstraps" just engenders more guilt and self loathing.

I didn't suggest polymath snap out of it or pull himself up by his own bootstraps.
I suggested that rather than look for someone who has suffered through similar circumstances he simply associate with healthy people no matter how they are or became healthy; in addition to his therapy of course, if he feels it is helping.
By such a process he might incrementally be able to internalize more healthy thoughts and habits, because ultimately mental health seems to me an internal process.
None of what I suggested places blame on polymath for his predicament. But neither do I think limiting who his support group should be to some guy his age who he can read about or talk to online and who has suffered similarly and prevailed is going to be likely to occur or productive.
It's like the old saw about normal families all being normal in the same way, but every dysfunctional one being different. Healthy people are basically pretty similar and it doesn't matter how they got there.
To the extent a healthy thought process can be learned simply being around them is what counts.

mud

I think a person has an intuitive wisdom about what THEY need. We can agree to disagree.              Ami

[Hopalong]

Hi Poly,

Lots of bossy advice here, please take anything useful and toss the rest...

totally understand why you're eager to find someone who fits the exact profile. But imo, this is is magical thinking. You could find someone who fit the checklist but who couldn't or wouldn't or didn't know how to articulate why he's okay. You would be shattered, because you've set yourself up to believe the checklist is the answer.

This is one COMPLEX AMAZING universe. Life is big, amazing, huge, marvellous, extraordinary, staggering! It's not routine that you have children! It's not ordinary that you have trees moving in the wind and hands that can hold a paintbrush or hammer!

That little Son-of-N checklist can't possibly be the only answer!

I believe you are setting yourself up in an obsessive way: the checklist, all the specific criteria. You can waste your hopes fixating on the checklist, and miss actual healers passing within feet (or posts) of you.

What I believe will work for you is to draw bits of healing and wisdom from a VARIETY of people and groups and resources. Male, female, spiritual, group, one-on-one, professional, pharmaceutical, familial, animal, altruistic. You need ALL of this, not ONE person.

A full-tilt love and support assault for yourself from every possible direction and source. Because you deserve to heal and to live.

And more importantly, because your children deserve a living father. Not a perfect one.

(I will say too that suicide, of a parent, is the most profoundly cruel thing a human can do to a child, imo. And though you don't discuss your kids, I am having trouble believing you want to tear their hearts out of their chests.)

I do ask, have you been thoroughly evaluated for the possibility of OCD?

I have always been drawn to the obsessive stubborn focus...(a lot of artists and writers have this trait) but I also know it can be a diversion, a distraction, from actually integrating the splintering parts of yourself.

It's not the checklist. It's just love, and hope, hope, hope.

You are absolutely determined and whether you find the profile man or not, you ARE finding something.

Keep talking. Get out to see PEOPLE, in addition to your therapist, can you find PEOPLE plural, in positive groups...say, volunteering? Several hours a week.

That is healing as well, it breaks the cycle of thought that you're struggling with.

Is there a soup kitchen or Habitat for Humanity? They'd love to see you. It won't be about you. And it will help you.

I'll swear that.

Hops

[lupine]

I think Mud is right.  Find the "healthy" people and follow their example as far as it can take you.  That being said, I hear the fear of letting go of all of your experience prior to going forward.  The bottom line is that whatever you do next, tension is how you should be; relaxation is who you are.  If how you are is where you want to go, relax and try it out.  Maybe for only a little while at a time (five minutes at a time?) but you'll get there.  You're still very young....you can tell your children later about your journey and they will learn.

[debkor]

Hey Poly,

I have not much advice but want to tell you that Yes there are others who survived and thrived.  As a matter of fact he just left my house hours ago.

He was not the same but not unlike your story.  He was 41 years old and now 42 and thriving. Everything you want to do and hope for I am telling you he is doing.

I have to agree with hops because...that is exactly how he did it.

Hops said::

You are absolutely determined and whether you find the profile man or not, you ARE finding something.

Keep talking. Get out to see PEOPLE, in addition to your therapist, can you find PEOPLE plural, in positive groups...say, volunteering? Several hours a week.

That is healing as well, it breaks the cycle of thought that you're struggling with.

Is there a soup kitchen or Habitat for Humanity? They'd love to see you. It won't be about you. And it will help you.

I'll swear that.

Hops

Ditto!!

His was a shelter.

Love Deb

[mudpuppy]

Remember the famous story of when Winston Churchill was invited to give a commencement address after WWII (I think it was at West Point, but not sure)? His ENTIRE SPEECH consisted of the following: Gentlemen, NEVAH, NEVAH, NEVAH give up. And then he sat down.

Actually heart of Pilgrimage it's even better than that.

Winston Churchill, October 1941, at close to the lowest point of the war, at Harrow his alma mater;

"This is the lesson, never give in, never give in, never, never, never--in nothing great or small, large or petty--never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy."

I know because I have a copy of it taped to my office door so I can never miss it when I leave. Inspired by the antics of my dear, dear brother.

mud

[HeartofPilgrimage]

Hey, thanks for finishing out my half-remembered quote, yes it's even better when you know the full story. And very apt for me too.

[lighter]

Winston Churchill, October 1941, at close to the lowest point of the war, at Harrow his alma mater;

"This is the lesson, never give in, never give in, never, never, never--in nothing great or small, large or petty--never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy."

Hear hear, Mud.