Very, very, very strange - weird, even - FOO repetition

[sKePTiKal]

OK, this gives me chills - and y'all know I can "go" a bunch of strange places without getting the willies. I'm putting this out here for comments, explanations, maybe you've had a similar experience... or heard of something like this.

My T cautioned me to not ever breathe a word of Twiggy's story to my brother, without really explaining why. Not one word or even referring to, or alluding to from me - so far. I did tell my mom, that I was remembering things, and at the time, she said I wouldn't remember them "right"... sigh. But I never told her what I was remembering.

So... my brother's life/marriage is imploding. My SIL has anorexic tendencies - and since being unemployed has become unapproachable, intolerant, paranoid, depressed, blaming and very controlling/abusive with the kids. Just what that level is, I have no way of knowing, for sure - tho' I have witnessed a couple things myself that fit the "pattern". When my mom first started telling me about all this... I figured she was just projecting again... onto my SIL. Not good - but also not my problem. So, I attempted to rationalize with my mom... find explanations for SIL's behavior that would make sense... once again, trying to "keep the peace" in the situation... but from a safe distance. That probably wasn't the best thing... it's a reflex... because my mom tries to make ordinary things out to be horrible, horrible stuff.

But it's clear, from my brother's comments and his demeanor last week that he is very afraid, worried, upset - and paralyzed in indecision. I put that down to his worries over a possible divorce. And then, I talked to my mom who described my SIL's behavior - almost exactly Twiggys'/my story - being played out in the present situation, with SIL playing the part of my mother and my niece in my part of the story. And it dawned on me: my mom is reliving that whole experience - there is no line between then/now for her - except she is telling me what she SHOULD have done; and what I should have done - i.e., contradict my mom's "Big Lie"; in the process of trying to problem-solve in the present... almost as if she in is the position I was in - then. That is the part that I don't know what to call it - my mom's reliving from another person's perspective. Apparently, she isn't making up or making more of my SIL's behavior.

Bizarro-strangeo... it gives me chills, because my mom is asking me for advice and validation, for the present situation... and in some strange parallel universe... this is validating my own experience from the person whose hands I suffered at. My brother is just beginning to ask for help, also. It's clear he can't bring himself to talk about it - I'm sure there are triggered emotions for him, as well. I see it in his eyes and his inattention during important conversation... the dissociation and pre-occupation with something completely unrelated. He is not present in the room.

They appear to be reliving that whole original situation: Twiggy's nightmares. My boundaries about this, got drawn a while back and so far are holding, but this is SOOOOO creepy... and I really don't want to "get any on me", you know? Not EVEN if there is validation for my own experience twisted up in the whole mess. I keep telling my mom, that it's up to my brother to deal with it (drawing a boundary for her) and that she needs to keep reminding him that he can't keep avoiding the issues - for the kids' sake - time is of the essence. Either everyone seek treatment, which would be a very good thing... or remove the kids from the abuse... which does of course, spill over onto my brother and mother... or both or somewhere in between - but he can't run away from and stuff the problems, because it will only get worse.

Anyway, I just wondered if anyone else had watched their mom go through something like this... it's totally spooky, icky and I'm keeping my 10 foot pole close by.

[lighter]

Oh, ((Amber.....))

what a difficult confusing painful situation.

I bet it feels like a familiar dream to you.
Mo2

ps  I hope your brother's family can get therapy soon.

[Hopalong]

it dawned on me: my mom is reliving that whole experience - there is no line between then/now for her - except she is telling me what she SHOULD have done; and what I should have done - i.e., contradict my mom's "Big Lie"

I don't blame you at all for having creeped-out feelings on this one. Totally natural and right.

Yet it also (parallel) struck me as something healing, rightening.

(NOT that your M would ever "confess" or try in a mature, conscious way to make amends...but that in some part of her being, something is somehow trying to struggle to the surface and make it "right".)

It kind of reminds me that even deeply within disordered people, there can be an ethical or balancing psyche function that does try to reach the surface.

I don't think you should be involved or harmed by this -- your distance is the right one, wherever you set it.

But it gave me a moment of hope for your mother.

love,
Hops

[teartracks]

PR,

Mystery and suspense!  There was more of it during my seven years of hell than all the years before.  Pain aside, walking through it brought valuable redeemiing gifts I would have never dreamed of.   You have your gift of insightfulness and wisdom to draw from in this new situation.  

I think my mom had a different way to 'replay' past scenarios with different players.  I'll have to think about that one.

tt



  

[sKePTiKal]

Thanks...

I'm OK, Mo2... like Hops, I think there is some weird trying to make amends, going on here. I've been "medium chill" with mom for a few years now... so it's not like I get a daily dose of the "latest". She seems truly concerned for the welfare of my brother & his children... (ok... the irony of her sharing this with ME... ok, I get it... it doesn't hurt, really... she is totally not aware and still in denial about me)

I was sorta hoping that maybe someone could see this as a specific symptom of something... to help me understand her weirdness.

[Meh]

Hiya, Phoenix,
I'm glad to hear you are receiving some form of validation even if in an odd way, maybe?

So your mother is watching your sister in law and niece's relationship unfold. Your mother is identifying with the niece, who is in the role of victim. By doing this your mother is identifying with twiggy's role and hence validating you in a way because she is expressing some understanding of what the victim experiences. Your mother is communicating her thoughts about how the situation needs to be remedied. It's strange for you because you are seeing that your mother has some recognition of what is happening. Is this correct?

Maybe because she is seeing it happen to your sis in law and niece, she can recognize it because it is removed from her.
She is in denial herself on some level, but when she sees it outside of herself she can recognize it because it's remote.
 
I can relate to my Nar-mother making ordinary things into horrible things.
I can relate to witnessing my brother's life/marriage falling apart and my Nar-relatives strange part in that.
There probably is some level of abuse going on with my brother's kids, he says that his wife hits them. I just have bad feelings about the whole situation for the kids. I have never met the kids or his ex-wife, they all live in a different state. It's very sad.

I'm not certain I have ever seen my mother go through the reliving from the other side. (parallel universe!)
Both my aunt and mother have said that they were neglected when they were kids and my mother even regressed I think when I tried to speak to her about her childhood one time. My aunt and mother also say how horrible one of their step father was. My aunt actually got in fist fights with him I think.  Sounds a bit different then what you are seeing unfold.

My only guess, maybe way off, is that yes the Nar-people have experienced both sides, both the abuser and the receiving of the abuse and so they do know both sides. When they themselves act out the part of the abuser they are in denial of what they are doing.

I'm glad to hear that your boundaries are holding up against the storm.

[Meh]

I'm not certain how relevant this is to your situation.. but I thought of this.

So I remember this passage from a book about abuse that stated this: When a person is abused and there is no witness or no person to say that it is wrong they themselves become abusers also. When a person is abused and there is a third person/witness or perspective to tell the receiver of the abuse that it's wrong then the receiver becomes a victim rather then an abuser.

I have no idea about the making amends part.

I personally think that I am better off if I never expect a real apology from my mother.

[teartracks]

Hi PR,

Apparently, she isn't making up or making more of my SIL's behavior.

Just stabbing in the dark here, PR, but have there been other times (not related to family stuff or her past behavior) when she 'other-examined' correctly, or is this situation an isolated event where her reasoning of it doesn't involve exageration and mis representation of the facts?

tt

 

[Overcomer]

I notice my mom sliding back into repeat...........it is almost like they go back where they are comfortable.  Rather than stepping out of a dysfunction they embrace it...

[sKePTiKal]

tt - that's it, really. She so sees only the worst and is so paranoid & suspicious about others... that I generally discount her assessment of people and situations. It's as if she's in a completely other reality than the one most people inhabit; my brother rather tends that way also. Some of that is just B&W thinking... some of that is a need to be "right" about someone, that doesn't consider someone's action in the context of a specific situation - do one bad thing and they are bad people. There is no separation of behavior and the "character" of the person... doing equals the person. Is that a form of objectifying?

And some of that is mom projecting her opinion of right/wrong and some absolute "right" feeling or behavior and expecting others to be exactly like her and feel just like her, at all times. Again, as if the other person doesn't have the right to thoughts & feelings that are different from hers... (I seriously feel for my SIL having to live with my mom & my brother for 10 years... it's only complicated and triggered her own issues, no doubt.)

Yes Helen, I believe that even earlier than my mom's marriage to my dad (and that's another story) she experienced some kind of traumatic abuse. I have wild theories, but nothing concrete has ever been said - that I can remember - to that effect. The closest I've been able to come to defining her mental illness is BPD. Borderline Personality Disorder. I do remember, though, that she wasn't this way from birth. We were looking through some of my mom's old stuff in my Grandma's attic - prom formals, tap dance outfits, horse stuff, paint by number supplies... and my grandma made the statement that she never understood why my mom was so outgoing, happy and creative and why that just stopped abruptly. I don't remember if my mom even answered her.

I'm not obsessing on this or concerned... yet. I do need the practice on boundaries, myself. Especially with them... since it seems they're allowed to set boundaries that others must respect... but god forbid, I should set one and expect it to be respected. It's truly challenging - and Kelly, I can just imagine how exhausted you've become trying to run a business with your mother. Every interaction I have with my brother it's like I'm talking to a different person. He doesn't recall what went on in important meetings a week ago or decisions that we made... and then launches into an attack on me... because he thinks I'm doing something "out of bounds" or behind his back. Sigh.

Taking on the alligators - wading into the midst of them - and trying to run a business and function with an unrecovered FOO isn't for everyone. I almost ran away from the whole situation. Total fear threatened to overwhelm me at one point a few months ago... when my brother's behavior set off my alarms and I realized the "horror of the situation", for me. I can still be triggered, based on certain things from my old experiences. But Twiggy wouldn't let me run away. So, I'm trying to put everything I've learned to use, to keep myself "safe", to deal with them when I have to, and still fight my way to good decisions despite all the old crap I'm being forced to wade through... and the deflections I have to make when the turd-bombs come my way. And on that to-do list is ALSO be happy more and enjoy myself, as much as possible. It's been happening, more and more often. I'm not nearly as anxious as I might sound about the future of this challenge.

Just crossing bridges as I get to them... still chopping wood and carrying water... and still remembering who I'm dealing with, to minimize the surprise attacks... and minimize the tendency to link now and the past, emotionally. To just let the old stuff go and deal with now. I guess I needed something that wasn't easy to try to do.

[Gaining Strength]

When Helen writes,

So your mother is watching your sister in law and niece's relationship unfold. Your mother is identifying with the niece, who is in the role of victim. By doing this your mother is identifying with twiggy's role and hence validating you in a way because she is expressing some understanding of what the victim experiences. Your mother is communicating her thoughts about how the situation needs to be remedied. It's strange for you because you are seeing that your mother has some recognition of what is happening. Is this correct?

Maybe because she is seeing it happen to your sis in law and niece, she can recognize it because it is removed from her.
She is in denial herself on some level, but when she sees it outside of herself she can recognize it because it's remote.

I think she hits the nail on the head.  I do hope you can experience this as validation for Twiggy because her mother clearly knows the behavior is wrong even if she cannot acknowledge it as her own.  I can imagine how bewildering it is for you.  Hold those boundaries tightly.  This is not your battle unless you choose to step in.  Your first obligation is to yourself and yours. 

Thinking of you  friend - GS

[teartracks]

Hi PR,

Objectifying?  Would the M O be complete without objectification?

Do you suppose a melt down of the three, your mom, brother, and SI  is eminent?   

Could your father's passing be strongly tied into the behaviors you're seeing?

I don't know, PR.  Time is often a slow story teller. 

tt

[sKePTiKal]

ah, tt... and there are mysteries about life that are precious, simply because they are mysteries! It will be interesting to see what happens later on, with them, because there is also a strong aversion to change - any change - in both brother and mother. My mom always saw my dad as an evil boogey-man (he wasn't THAT bad)... it's a little difficult to be a victim, unless there is an evil perpetrator to blame, right?

GS - yes, Helen sees far and clearly! Twiggy is a bit bewildered about the validation coming in this fashion - but she's holding it, nevertheless. She knows this is probably as close to an apology, as she'll ever get... and she's thinking it might just be good enough, under the circumstances.

[Gabben]

(NOT that your M would ever "confess" or try in a mature, conscious way to make amends...but that in some part of her being, something is somehow trying to struggle to the surface and make it "right".)

It kind of reminds me that even deeply within disordered people, there can be an ethical or balancing psyche function that does try to reach the surface.

But it gave me a moment of hope for your mother.

Amber -- I agree with hops on this, what he wrote above. That was my first intuition when I read your post. It also came to me that our family dynamic shifts when just one person seeks truth to get well, as you have done over the years. It may take a long time, but if one of us in the family gets well the rest of the family, unconsciously, may start to seek wellness or at least make a slight shift in that direction. It has happened in my family, many times.

[Meh]

So I thought about this situation a little more and remembered this:

When my brother was going through his divorce, my mother read a book about how divorce impacts children. I guess my mother was concerned or something about her grandkids, who knows, maybe someone loaned her the book and she read it out of duty.
It's totally out of character for my mom to read this sort of stuff. She mentioned to me that she had been reading the book, and it ALMOST sounded like there may have been a little window that opened up in her consciousness momentarily and then closed up again.
Like possibly when she was reading the book she realized that her behavior had an impact on me and my brother. I have decided for my self that she does not give a F*ck. That she does know.

She still has her behavior habits and her denial. It was a little blip on the map.