Bones: I think there is something to the MALE PMS theory!
I don't know what to make of all this. Because Teds car is in the shop this week, he had to pick me up from work. We had a long time to talk on the way home. As I suspected, he really does not get that sex means more than sex, and that it has a different meaning now than it did when I was single. We talked about it, and he listened to what I had to say, but then he told me what I said was really complicated and he didn't think he grasped all of it. OK, I guess that's fair.
I was right about the insecurity thing. He was feeling overwhelmed and defeated because he felt he could not please me sexually, and was suggesting (in a rather mean manner, he admits) that I should look for someone better able. It has also been a fantasy of his for years. I thought I had heard of something like this before, and it turns out this is a somewhat common fantasy, primarily among white males, and that it gets more common as the men get older (IE, more 40 year olds are interested in this fantasy than 20 year olds.) Men who have this fantasy/fetish frequently feel inadequate in some way and are pleased with the idea that their wife is still able to enjoy herself, regardless of the husbands perceived flaws. Some men like the idea that their wife is a separate sexual individual, not just an extension of the man and his sexuality. Some feel it is a better alternative to let their wife sleep around, so long as he comes home, than to risk her completely leaving them for a better sex life. Many people try to get over feelings of inadequacy by attempting to improve themselves in some way or to adjust their thinking; however, men who enjoy this fantasy would rather reinforce what they already believe to be true, that they are just not good enough and their wife is better off with the attention of an additional man. Some men (oh, what is the word, I forgot!) twist (?) this feeling of inferiority into a sense of "ain't I wonderful, I'm so secure, I know what she's doing and who she's coming home to!" There are a lot of variations on this theme, the most common seeming to be voyeurism and humiliating the husband in some way. A very few men seem to like the idea that they never again will have to have sex with their wives, but it seems to me that this is indicative of a bigger problem. What surprised me most was that the fantasy is NOT about objectifying the woman by passing her around, but about making sure that her sexual appetite is satisfied regardless of the abilities of the husband.
Sealynx, thanks for taking the time to put all that together in one place. That was a very thoughtful thing to do. It looks really overwhelming. Let me take it point by point:
1. I cannot get him to understand that my problem is only partly about sex and much more about attention, neglect, loneliness, and fear. (He does not acknowledge your feelings)I think in a lot of cases, he just does not GET my feelings. He does have a few N traits, and this is one of them. Feelings, especailly complex ones, are so foreign to him that he often denies they exist. I also notice that I seem to experience feelings of any sort much more intensely than he does, and he does not comprehend this. I think it confuses him and puts him at a disadvantage. For the first few years, we had a real struggle because he always thought I was overreacting, and I always thought he had the sensitivity of a brick.
To give him credit, he does try to listen. But I might as well be speaking Swahili most of the time. Also to his credit, once he knows something upsets me, even if he does not understand why, he will try not to go there again.
2. He will not carry a cell phone and it is impossible to reach him at work unless it is some kind of emergency….. When he is home, he leaves the computer on line all the time so I cannot reach him. When we are home together and I call to him from another room, he always answers "what!" in this mean snotty voice that makes it abundantly clear that even my calling his name is a huge imposition. The fact that he does not even want sex with me is just one more aspect of this bigger problem. (Reacts to attempts at communication with verbal abuse or threatening tone).
3. Another part of the problem, however, is that he just does not want to be bothered. We have had the cell phone issue in some form or another since I was pregnant. I have mentioned to him many many times that I want him to have one. Either he refuses, messes it up in some way (Like before they hung up at the end of the call by themselves, he never terminated the call and ran through 300 minutes in 6 hours) or just claims it does not work. He did not even want to have a cell phone when I was about to deliver our son and might need to get hold of him fast. (Serious neglect of you during a very vulnerable time.)Now, this communication/availability thing is a serious problem. Remember, my pregnancy was eight years ago. He has grown up quite a bit since then. I don't think he would be an a*hole like that again if I were to get pregnant/sick/in a car accident/whatever now.
I think this may be about space or boundaries or something like that. I think somebody (Ami maybe?) was onto something by mentioning that his telling me to go get laid elsewhere was a big demand for space. The fact that it is ongoing and seems to involve some resentment on his part makes me think it is something huge in his background.
4. Last Valentines day we were is such a better place. He gave me a beautiful card that started out with "Lets promise to always be in love...." and it was just so appropriate for where we were at the time. (Did he back those words up with actions for more than a few days??)For the last few years, we have been cycling thorough periods where we are very happy and times like we are in now. I am not sure why this happens or what triggers it, or even which one of us initiates it. The thing I loved about that card is, it was so appropriate to where we were at that time. It seems like the good times seem to last longer each time, but the valleys are still hell, as you see. I think we are both getting better at understanding each other and communicating with each other, but there are still a lot of pitfalls.
5. And keeping the phone line tied up so that I cannot even call to tell my son goodnight. And leaving his clothes on the floor and dirty dishes in the sink so it is just more for me to do, as if I am his maid or something. (Is he so addicted to porn or online gaming that you have developed a mother/son relationship where he is the “kid” who stays in his room and avoids the world while you provide a home?)
6. ANd he never wants to take time to discus bills and lately he even makes excuses not to balance my checkbook (which he took on because I just can't do it, and it was costing us a lot of money for me to continue to try. (Again, neglect of adult responsibilities because he is so busy doing????)
7. His answer to this is, I should take a day off work if I want to discuss bills or whatever. Then he bitches because I only work part-time. ANd he also bitches if I do housework on the weekends, because this annoys him. (More like, I think it guilts him out b/c he knows he should have done it during the week.) It doesn't seem to matter that it annoys me to sit in a messy room all weekend. (You can’t do anything to please him can you? And again….what has he been doing instead of these adult activities. Double bind situations are physically unhealthy as well as mentally).
The thing is, I don't think he is actually
doing anything. Just wasting time, more than anything. He can't manage time for shit. He goes on line and starts playing Farmville on Facebook, then he wanders away and leaves the modem connected to our only phone line. I don't think he has done any on-line porn since my hard drive fried last March or so, and I told him it was all his fault from the viruses he must have picked up on the porn sites.
Actually, I did tell him how much it bothers me not to be able to reach him at home. After all, what if something happens to my car while I am driving home at night? We talked about his need for space vs. my need for contact in that context, and he admitted that once he thought about it, shutting me out that way seemed pretty selfish, even to him.
I think the issue with the checkbook and the messes and so forth is again something about space or communication or responsibility. It really does smack of teenage rebellion. (I don't wanna do it and nobody can make me!) Remember, I knew him when he was a teenager, and in that respect, he has not changed much. He also whines. Childish. But now that you have pointed this out, I can really see him parading around the house singing "I don't wanna grow up, I'm a toys-r-us kid!"
Again to his credit, he is a responsible father and husband. He has a decent job that he goes to every day and puts most of his money in the bank for the house payment. He takes care of Kiddo's history lessons (home school) and spends almost all his time with us on the weekends. I know chicks whose men behave as you describe, and even worse. Ted is basically a good guy. Troubled, but good at heart.
7. His answer to this is, I should take a day off work if I want to discuss bills or whatever. Then he bitches because I only work part-time. ANd he also bitches if I do housework on the weekends, because this annoys him. (More like, I think it guilts him out b/c he knows he should have done it during the week.) It doesn't seem to matter that it annoys me to sit in a messy room all weekend. (You can’t do anything to please him can you? And again….what has he been doing instead of these adult activities. Double bind situations are physically unhealthy as well as mentally).
8. OK, I am beginning to see why I feel so desperate and stuck here. There is no way to win, is there? NO, not with these rules. Yeah, this is just stupid. Unfortunately, I only ever bring it up (the finances) when we are having an argument, and at then I am not going to get a decent answer out of him. I will have to bring this up sometime when I am not screaming about it, and see if I get a better result.
9. From Letter to Ted: It scares me to death to think about this because, of course, what if we fail? What if it turns out that we are just wrong for each other? What if you tell me things I really don't want to know? I am terrified. I am almost as afraid that you will say yes as that you will say no. (You ask…. “What if we fail” Unfortunately, from the constant absorption to the neglected housework and emotional isolation, there is no we mentioned here. He is only the “responder”, not the initiator of realistic solutions. It as if he always says, “you do something because I don’t have the problem. “I really take on the leadership role a lot. I'm not crazy about this, but when I try to bring it up, that causes an argument. It makes me feel like the only responsible adult (LIke meg Ryan in
The story of us. ). But, somebody around here has to steer the ship, so I guess I'd better do it.
I'm not sure why it's this way. Probably some of that basic irresponsibility that I have been talking about all along, and partly a difference in personalities, I think. It's more like he says, "You do something because I have no idea what to do."
Erin, when I look back over all your comments I see several things:
a. This has been going on many years. That tells me this not a phase or an inability to express himself. He does express himself. He basically says “leave me alone” again and again and don't think another woman would make a difference here.
b. You have probably put off a strong confrontation because you may feel very strongly that number 9 is the outcome.
c. You are talking about all of this because you can’t stand to live like this anymore and you are ready to at least ready to give lip service to number 9 being a reality.
d. He knows how to “not talk to you” and intimidate you into at least temporary silence. I don’t think another year of not expressing your need or anger will make a difference here.
e. I feel a third person preferably a professional is needed to break this pattern. If he won’t go you may have your answer to question 9, but I would still seek support for myself.It;s true that this has been going on for years. But, things are
so much better than they were on the day we got married. We have made a lot of progress. He is tons better at expressing himself, most of the time. Then we have these weird times, when it seems like we have just gone back about 5 years. Like I said, I have no idea what (or which one of us) sets this in motion. For all I know, It could be something I am doing that triggers something in him. Or it could just be that he is being a pissy-pants little jerk, for whatever reason.
Actually, there have been serious confrontations. I have packed my stuff twice in the last 7 years. The first time, it resulted in therapy that did do us some good, but we got too close to some of my old abuse issues and I had to quit. The second time we were already in therapy, and had the ability to talk out the problem before I actually got in the car and drove away. IN both cases, the problem that forced the confrontation got solved and has not been an issue again.
One of my customer/friends told me something the other day that made me think. The gist of it is, sometimes we get our feelings hurt for no good reason because we mis-perceive the other person's intentions. What we may think is rude or disrespectful may just be that person's manner, the way they were brought up or what is normal where they come from. THey may not mean anything by it at all.
This has been the case with a lot of my marriage. Ted and I came form opposite poles when it comes to a lot of things like communication abilities, sensitivity, perceptions, introspection, and so on. He does not get me a lot of the time. And, as I so richly illustrated this week, I don't get him either sometimes.
Thanks to all of you and your kind words, I can see where we have some real issues--communication, responsibility, and being available. I sense that these are really deep issues with him, which is why he goes nuts whenever we get close to one of them. He is going to have to cope with this, or alt least we will have to come to some kind of workable solution so we can keep some kind of order around here.
