Not desirable--husband is a huge jerk--so sad--help

[Redhead Erin]

 

I am so angry and hurt and sad tonight I don't even know where to begin. 

I love my husband dearly.  He is essentially a good man and a good father.  There is no question about that.

Things get better and worse with us by turns.  We have done counseling a few times.  Sometimes it seems to help.

He stopped really wanting to have sex with me when I got pregnant.  Nine years ago. Ever since then, it has been a struggle to have sex more than once a week or so.  I know we are busy and we work opposite shifts, but I don't feel in my heart that this is really the issue.  He says he is too tired, but really, I dont buy that either.  I know there is something else going on, but I don't know what.  He won't talk about it and resorts to yelling and blaming me for being a nag.   Of course sometimes I do nag, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the real reason either.  I don't think he knows the reason.

I had thought that if I lost all this weight, he would be more interested in me.  Now I am struggling not to backslide, and I am so disappointed because it does not seem to make any difference whatsoever.  Such a huge disappointment.  I worked so hard, and for what?  I don't make any more money, I have lost a lot of my regulars, and my husband is just as disinterested in me as ever.  I tried to bring it up to him this weekend, only to be told that --brace yourself--I should take a lover so that I could be satisfied without bothering him.

 

This is what it feels like to me: It makes me feel horrible inside.  I feel ugly, undesirable, unlovable.  Worse, I feel disposable.  I cant believe he would rather have me take a lover than exert a little effort to make me happy.  Do I really mean that little to him?  I feel like dirt. SO ugly. so useless. I feel like garbage.  literally, like something tossed out on the curb to be taken away. How can he say that?

Its bad enough he doesn't find me all that exciting.  That itself hurts like hell.  He has made it known before that sex with me is just too much work and most of the time he would rather take care of things alone.  OK, that hurt.  it was a real slap in the face.   But this is so much worse.  He has also told me that he wanted me more when I was with somebody else, and now that we are together, he probably will never have that same spark of desire again.  Ouch. But for god sake, is it too much to ask for sex a couple of times a week? Am I that grotesque in his eyes that he would send me away? What did I do? Do I ask for too much?

I know I am incoherent right now because I am crying so hard.  My thoughts keep going round and round in my head, and its difficult to get them out. I just cannot express how awful I feel now. 

Needless to say, this is not what I expected of a marriage.  I wanted to be treasured and cherished, held close and protected.  I feel discarded and rejected, small and unimportant.  I would never dream of saying anything like that to him.  If he told me he was unhappy, I would want to know why.  I would want to know how to make things better.   I would never tell him to go find somebody else. I feel so rejected.

I have treid talking to him, but it always ends in tears and an argument.  I don't know why this is or how to stop it.  I do know I cannot make him hear me in any meaningful way.  He just gets defensive and yells at me, belittles my feelings, and in short makes me feel like garbage all over again.  I don't know what to do.

BTW--This is NOT about my job.  I have had other jobs, but the issue remains.

[CB123]

Erin,

Sex is really pretty weird.  It’s like money, it hardly ever means what we try to say it means--it always means so much more.

Sex is really about physical desire and how that is stirred up is so individual and unique.  There can be a lot of things hampering your husband’s desire for you--from actual physical problems, to fears, to feeling inadequate, to misconceptions about aging.  Notice all those are about him, not you.  But if he gets pushed, he will say its about you.

I have never read that you had other problems with your husband and you say that he is a good husband and a good father and you love him.  So, doesn’t sound like he’s a creep.  That’s good.

But telling you to find another lover and leave him alone is creepy.  If he’s not usually a creep, there is something big going on.  Telling you to find another lover is the ultimate demand for space, for distance. 

Women want to talk about problems, men are typically not as excited about that.  Some men are very, very threatened.  If they are already feeling less-than, they will come out swinging.  I have never found that talking about sex  has helped a relationship a whole lot, advice columns not withstanding.  If someone wants space, giving it to them will help--at least while you figure out what else is going on.

Believe it or not, neither men nor women say what they really think, what they really want.  Most times, we are as confused as anyone about the solution to the problem at hand.  I don’t believe when he says he wants you to find a lover that he really means it.  I don’t know if you can do this, but if you can NOT cry and look him in the eye and say “don’t be ridiculous” and refuse to even take the suggestion seriously, it would be helpful. To you and to him, since that was such a stupid suggestion and he probably already can’t believe he made it.

Back to sex and money--both are, more times than not, representative of power in a relationship.  Shouldn’t be that way, because neither one is much fun after things degenerate to that point.  If you can sit still with yourself and see if that has happened in your relationship--and see where--and see how to release it, that will help both of you.  And if you can keep from talking to him about it, just journal, write here, think long and hard--that would be better.

Bottom-line, sex is supposed to be fun.  It’s supposed to be a interlude away from all the other pressures in life--not one more pressure.  When you guys start struggling over it, its already not much fun--for either of you.  So, I would back WAY back from the actual struggle and give this incredible pain a chance to simmer a bit and see what comes to the top. 

See if you can tell why it would make you backslide and gain weight--did you lose the weight for him, to be sexy to him?  Can you grow to a place where the weight loss is for you?  Can you look at why he thinks you are nagging him? (to be realistic, it doesn’t mean you are.  But maybe you are, and maybe that’s part of the power play.)  Can you sit quietly and let all the thoughts and fears about lack of sex is bringing up in you?  Not what it means to him, but to you. 

Hang in there, Erin.  This really can work out.

CB

[Ami]

Dear Erin
 My intuition is that HE is going through something  within himself.It could be emotional or physical. I agree with CB that it is not about your attractiveness or maybe even you, per se.
 Perhaps,after your shock and pain with his suggestion, you can go deeper with him , as a friend, and find out what is bothering him.
'You had a lot of courage to share that. I admire your courage!            xxxooo    Ami  


PS He does not sound like a creep ,to me, either.                                      

[Nonameanymore]

Hi Erin,

I am really sorry you're going through this. 9 years is a lot of time to have to go through sexual problems in a marriage.
I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with your attractiveness - it rarely does.
Have you had sex related counselling? I think that sexual refusal is the disguise of a number of personal issues.
I think maybe, like the others said, try to talk with him and see what is on his mind.

I am sorry I have not had much experience in the subject but am sending you good thoughts and hope you will work things through.

P.

[Sealynx]

Hi Erin,

 CB123 makes some very good points about this not being about you. Take a deep breath and accept that there is nothing you can do about YOU that will change him. There are so many things that could be going on here and it sounds like they are all locked away in his head.

This comment is interesting.
"He stopped really wanting to have sex with me when I got pregnant.  Nine years ago. Ever since then, it has been a struggle to have sex more than once a week or so......"

Let's think for a moment about what could be wrong with HIM:

How long after your marriage did you become pregnant?  Was your sex life "wild and crazy fun" before you had a child, or did his interest decline not long after you were married??  Was his fantasy mainly about winning you or having you all to his own?  

Could he be having issues with homosexual feelings that he is no longer able to bury. Sometimes gay men will manage to date women and even father children but the feeling just isn't as strong as their dominant sexual orientation. They can become basically asexual rather than deal with their feelings. If they have a great deal of shame about their orientation it is easier for them to have their partner leave them or find another lover than to admit their real feelings. Many gay and bi-sexual men are not effeminate.

Does he have any physical issues with erection?

How does he spend his free time? What interests him? Does he seem depressed or happy with his life beyond your sexual issues?

There are so many things that could be going on in his head and he is the only one who knows what they are.  

The key to this is in his being honest not in your trying harder to make yourself fit the "image of his desire" when he refuses to even give a hint as to what that is.

Will he agree to couple's therapy? I again have to agree with CB Erin. It is all about him.

Whatever his issues are, letting it upset you to this extent will not help. If he will not seek therapy and this continues you will need to make some decisions about how to meet your needs.

As much as I know you don't want this, open marriages do work for some people. I had a neighbor who remained married to a sea captain until he died in bed beside her at the age of 80. They both decided early in their marriage that his travel schedule, which included long months at sea, didn't work for either of them sexually and they agreed to meet their basic needs with other partners without disrupting the marriage.

[Redhead Erin]

Thanks you guys.  

We have gone through similar stuff before and I agree, all the signs are there that this is something about him. He does this periodically, gets snipy and mean for no apparent reason.  And no, he is not really a creep.  Just has some weird ideas.

I am thinking back over the stuff we have said to each other lately.  I know he is feeling put-upon with a lot of outside pressures.  (Like I am not.) I really see you point about the demand for space, CB.  

I also know something about his upbringing and his mother. She pretty much groomed him to be a loser and a quitter. So I think what is going through his mind is, "I cannot make this woman happy, so I might as well not try."  I think he is feeling overwhelmed in other areas of his life, and this is just too much. In his mind, he believes he has made a generous offer to allow me to follow my bliss.  

As to how this is related to my diet and my weight, that much is easy.  I hate dieting.  It is a lot of work, even for me, who loves cooking and such.  It gets to be a big pain to always deny myself the foods I like.  I also eat for emotional reasons (comfort) and it is really very tough to avoid doing that. Some people have seen my posts about how my evil bitch of a NM used to make me go on diets and then sabotage me when I got near my goal weight.  So all that history coupled with the current turmoil in my life and the knowledge that two of the things I most wanted--to make more money and to be more attractive to my husband--have totally flopped.  I have even lost a lot of my regular customers to the "fat girls" who look like I did a year ago.  So right as of this moment, I am completely unmotivated to continue denying myself my favorite foods and the emotional comfort I derive form them. It sucks.

Thanks for being here for me, you guys.  I am going to give all this a lot of thought.    I am so glad I met all of you, and that you are so nice and generous with your time and thoughts.    Catch you all later!



ETA:  Sealynx, your post came in while I was typing.  Funny, I was thinking about you as it was happening! 

Ted and I have a long and weird history.  We met in High school and were always best of friends.  We were each married to someone else at one time.  The first I knew that he was interested in anything more, was when I told him I was engaged a second time, and he told me he didn't want to see me any more because he was in love with me, an seeing me with somebody else was just too painful.  Well, my fiance died of Cancer, at around the same time Ted's first wife left him. We started hanging out more and of course turned to each other for comfort. Sex was heaps of fun back then, since we were both single and had no obligations besides working enough to pay the bills.  OF course, I was not really emotionally available at the time.  Rick died in August and I was pregnant 11 months later. We had been discussing marriage, in fact he had put a deposit on a ring, but as it worked out we did not get married until our son was nearly two.

Life has been a big roller coaster ever since.  We have tried therapy a couple of times.  It seems to help with some surface issues, but not with deeper stuff.  This last time, the therapist was either unqualified or just a dolt, and I gave up. 

The homosexual issue is one that I had not considered.  Wow.  Please god, please don't let it be that.

I considered the open marriage a couple of times.  I have concluded that it is just not for me.  I have been passed around enough. I don't want to be shared. It is absolutely not what I want in a marriage.  I would rather get divorced.

[Sealynx]

Hi Erin,
So you did not get married until your son was nearly two and he stopped wanting sex after the pregnancy? I want to put a totally rhetorical question to you. I'm not asking for an answer here, just something to think about. That would mean that you married when sex was declining. Was the marriage perhaps a way of trying to keep that relationship alive for one or both of you? Could it have been more about living up to the responsibilities of parenthood than sexual bliss on his part? Some people just aren't capable of long term desire for a partner (no matter who it is). Could you accept that this may be true of him? If it is what would you do?

"So all that history coupled with the current turmoil in my life and the knowledge that two of the things I most wanted--to make more money and to be more attractive to my husband--have totally flopped."

I think many of us raised by N's are led to believe that we can and should work to make people happy and that it can be done. Our N's demand ceaseless effort so they endow us with the title of "Possible, but not yet, ruler of the Universe". While seeking that elusive title we can take on full responsibility for many things that need to be shared goals and assume that a reward "should" be waiting for our efforts. When the expected results don't materialize, I know I can feel not only the current let down but a ripple effect of worthless feelings that go all the way back to childhood.

He doesn't appear to have offered any rewards for your weight-loss campaign. Was it something you decided to try to change his desire level without his support? It might help if you accepted the sacrifices you made as not having anything to do with him. You may want to sit with that idea for a moment and really feel what it means, even if it means "giving up trying to change him".

It may be easier to constantly judge your efforts (as our mother's judged us) then to sit with the possibility of total lack of control over the feelings of another person. I feel like staying upset with our efforts allows us to avoid the reality of the situation. If the weight loss campaign was your idea, then how can he possibly have let you down or rejected you? If it was not what he wanted or needed to fix things then nothing has changed for him.

The feeling of failure is coming from your own expectations at attempting what could be an impossible mission. They don't have anything to with his intentions. By not responding to your physical changes he is only reinforcing that whatever was wrong with his sexual desire is still wrong. Thinking about it this way may not make you feel better, but it could help you to feel bad about the right things. I know that doesn't sound better but the path to making a decision at some point is in my opinion connected to your needs and not your attempts to alter his needs. Accepting helplessness over the feelings of others can be the first step.

[Redhead Erin]

Sealynx,

Reading what you wrote made me sad.  Of course you are right.  I have been trying to lose weight for a long time.  I have lost maybe 50 pounds from what I weighed before I got pregnant.  He liked me thin and he liked me heavy.  Looking back, my weight really does not seem to have as much to do with anything as I had thought.

I started trying to lose weight because I was sick of what I was seeing in the mirror.  I was sick of rude customer comments.  I do amateur pin-up modeling and I was sick of looking at the pictures and hating them.   I also hoped that looking better would help me make more money by appealing to a wider customer base. And yes, I thought that if I looked better, Ted would become as interested in me as he was before I had my son. I never stopped to consider that I weighed probably more than 200 pounds on the day I got pregnant. I just assumed that thinner is sexier and that by losing weight once and for all, my life would be so much better. *sigh*

I have no idea why he even wanted to marry me, or why I married him.  We were fighting horribly the whole summer before the wedding.  In fact, I almost didn't didn't do it at all.  I remember we had planned this beautiful ceremony and when it really happened, I was so terrified that I was shaking.  He kept telling me everything was going to work out fine, and I just made myself believe that.  Our first-dance song was "patience" by guns'n'roses. That pretty much says it all right there.

What would I do if it turns out that he has the sexual attention span of a fruit fly? Wow.  THat is as bad as asking, what would I do if it turned out he was gay. I can't imagine.

Frankly, it never occured to me that this might be the case.  Yes, as SuperErin the SuperStripper, (cue superman music here:dah-dah, da-da-dahhhh!) I have been under the impression that I do indeed have control over other peoples' desires.  I use a variety of sales skills, flirting,  and persuasion techniques to make sales.  It works great in the short term, but it is exhausting to keep up.  I can't do it in my real life, and I wouldn't try.  Honestly, I am good for about 6 hours with breaks, then I need to quit.  I can't run my marriage like that. Coupled with the shit that has been fed into me since I was a child (you are so desirable I can't help but do these things to you, I can't help myself, you make me do this, and other assorted sewage), my work life has twisted me perception of what really is possible in my marriage. 

I don't know if this makes sense, but let me try...Because I do, in fact, control people's short-term desires at work (all sales people do, at least the good ones) and because I was told as a child that I have an inordinate amount of control over other peoples desires as a way to absolve the abusers of guilt, I have come to believe that I can keep up this sort of thing long term, in a real relationship.  Sort of dumb, huh? 


YOu all have really given me a lot to think about.  IT's true, sex really doesn't mean what it seems like it should mean or even what I want it to mean.  Nothing is as it seems, I guess.

I feel like I have stepped into a Salvador Dali painting, and all the familair things are warped and unexpected. I am not very happy right now.

[Sealynx]

Hi Erin,
I don't know if this makes sense, but let me try...Because I do, in fact, control people's short-term desires at work (all sales people do, at least the good ones) and because I was told as a child that I have an inordinate amount of control over other peoples desires as a way to absolve the abusers of guilt, I have come to believe that I can keep up this sort of thing long term, in a real relationship.  Sort of dumb, huh?  

You weren't dumb at the beginning of this post and you certainly aren't now! I'm glad you did the weightloss thing for you as well as Ted. I'm sorry I made you sad, but glad you spent a bit of time thinking about that sales aspect of you, where it might have come from and what its limitations are. Maybe those thoughts will bring you some important insights about how to work through this problem. I really believe that we have all the answers if we just ask ourselves the right questions.

I have no idea why he even wanted to marry me, or why I married him.  We were fighting horribly the whole summer before the wedding.  In fact, I almost didn't didn't do it at all.  I remember we had planned this beautiful ceremony and when it really happened, I was so terrified that I was shaking.  He kept telling me everything was going to work out fine, and I just made myself believe that.  Our first-dance song was "patience" by guns'n'roses. That pretty much says it all right there.

From your picture and what you have said, the reason he married you was because you are a beautiful woman and he appreciated your friendship. If I had just said what you said about not knowing why I married him, I might sit down and do a list of all the fears I had back then and ask myself how many of them have manifested, how many were about me and how many were about him. In other words was the picture you had of your marriage accurate, if not what is different? If it is accurate, what caused you to go against your own feelings? your intuition must be pretty good because you knew I was typing up above.
  
I think asking some of these questions could be of value to you, not only in your marriage, but on a personal level. This could be the universe's way to help you deal with those issues of abuse, attractiveness and self worth. Everything happens for a reason. If sexuality is important to you then the universe will probably use it to get your attention. Hopefully you have a therpist that you can bounce some of your perceptions that result off of.

I wish you the love you so richly deserve.
S

[CB123]

Sex was heaps of fun back then, since we were both single and had no obligations besides working enough to pay the bills. OF course, I was not really emotionally available at the time. Rick died in August and I was pregnant 11 months later. We had been discussing marriage, in fact he had put a deposit on a ring, but as it worked out we did not get married until our son was nearly two.

Erin,

I caught the sequence of events here--your husband lost interest in sex when you got pregnant?  Which was pretty quickly after you were together?  And were arguing a lot before you got married?

I wonder if this is a bit of a loss of control issue.  Things escalated kinda fast--maybe faster than either of you were ready for.  Parenthood before marriage is a rough way to go.

I still think that not talking about it for a bit to let all the feelings simmer down a bit is a good idea.  It seems to me, though, that loss of control is easier to work through than some of the other possibilities that have been brought up.  And its not a small thing--I have found that for me the biggest damper on my sexuality is feeling powerless and out of control. 

Keep letting things float to the surface.  Nice and easy.

CB

[Redhead Erin]

This is my marriage:



(Don't worry, Dr. G.  It's public domain. )

Really.  My husband has got to be the most literal-minded person I ever met.  He could not grasp an abstract thought if it had a handle.

I made a comment today which lead to my admitting I was still hurt over the suggestion that I take a lover. The man is totally incapable of understanding why this bothers me.  He sees it as a totally practical solution to a simple problem.



What I meant:
me: Honey, I am feeling really neglected and very undesirable.  I feel like something is really wrong with me and maybe our marriage.  I need you to pay more attention to me and I want to have sex more than every week to ten days. I feel very lonely and alone.
What I heard:
Him: Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.  You think you have problems, well I have problems too.  You want sex more often, then go find a boyfriend on the side.  I have better things to do than worry about than whether you feel lonely, like sleeping and painting my war-game figures. Now go away and let me get some sleep.

What he heard:
Me: Honey, I need some stuff done around here.  I am really not getting enough sex and the roof is leaking.
Him:  Well, I don't have time to fix that.  Why don't you call a roofer in the morning and, while you are at it, go find a boyfriend on the side.

I cannot get him to understand that my problem is only partly about sex and much more about attention, neglect, loneliness, and fear.

Let's be brutally honest here.  I can get sex.  I could get paid for sex if I was so inclined.  I routinely turn down offers of decent money from decent looking men, because that is not what I want.  I have never been faithful to any relationship except this one, but in this marriage, all I want is to be faithful. I love this man very much and all I really want is to be loved as much, and in the same way, in return.

Sex itself is not the issue.  The issue is, I feel alone.  We work opposite shifts and hardly see each other during the week.  He will not carry a cell phone and it is impossible to reach him at work unless it is some kind of emergency.  He does some housework, but for everything he cleans, he leaves a different mess for me to clean up, so it's not like he is actually helping.  When he is home, he leaves the computer on line all the time so I cannot reach him.  When we are home together and I call to him from another room, he always answers "what!" in this mean snotty voice that makes it abundantly clear that even my calling his name is a huge imposition. The fact that he does not even want sex with me is just one more aspect of this bigger problem.

I have tired to address this issue with him before.  Part of the problem is, there is no good time to discuss it.  We have so little time alone together, and most of it takes place while one of us is trying  to get ready for work or go to sleep. I have considered asking him to write letters or email back and forth, so we can re-read things and answer thoughtfully and in our own time, but I am afraid that this would not work.  The good side is, nobody could be confused about what was said.  He has both physical hearing problems and cognitive listening problems, and frequently what he says I said and what I really did say are two different things.

Another part of the problem, however, is that he just does not want to be bothered.  We have had the cell phone issue in some form or another since I was pregnant. I have mentioned to him many many times that I want him to have one.  Either he refuses, messes it up in some way (Like before they hung up at the end of the call by themselves, he never terminated the call and ran through 300 minutes in 6 hours) or just claims it does not work.  He did not even want to have a cell phone when I was about to deliver our son and might need to get hold of him fast.

Our wedding anniversary is coming up on the 19th (yikes--that's THIS WEEK!  I thought it was next week.) Last Valentines day we were is such a better place.  He gave me a beautiful card that started out with "Lets promise to always be in love...." and it was just so appropriate for where we were at the time.  Looking at it now makes me cry.

[Redhead Erin]

Something else that is bothering me.  

We had a huge fight because I tried to tell him how alone I feel.  Yet he refuses to make any changes that might help that.  For example, the cell phone issue.  And keeping the phone line tied up so that I cannot even call to tell my son goodnight.  And leaving his clothes on the floor and dirty dishes in the sink so it is just more for me to do, as if I am his maid or something. ANd he never wants to take time to discus bills and lately he even makes excuses not to balance my checkbook (which he took on because I just can't do it, and it was costing us a lot of money for me to continue to try.)

He is always full of excuses about why he never wants to do anything like this.  He can't take his laundry downstairs/take out the trash/whatever because he does not have time.  He won't discuss bills or do housework on the weekend because that is his weekend, and god forbid he should do anything non-recreational on the weekends. But we are never home together during the week. His answer to this is, I should take a day off work if I want to discuss bills or whatever.  Then he bitches because I only work part-time. ANd he also bitches if I do housework on the weekends, because this annoys him. (More like, I think it guilts him out b/c he knows he should have done it during the week.)  It doesn't seem to matter that it annoys me to sit in a messy room all weekend.  


Sooooo...
*it is NOT ok for me to tell him I feel alone.
*it is NOT ok for me to ask for help with things I need help with.
*it is NOT ok to need sex, love, or attention when he has other things to do  ( like sleeping!)
*it is NOT ok to ask him to give up any of his precious leisure time to deal with issues we need to face together, whether practical or emotional
*Things that should be solved together, like sex, I should take care of on my own, but things I could do on my own, like straightening up the living room on Saturday morning, I should not do at all.  Oddly, the LIVING ROOM is his responsibility, but sex with me apparently is not???
*in order to make time to discuss finances, I have to give up a shift of work, which we so desperately need.

OK, I am beginning to see why I feel so desperate and stuck here.  There is no way to win, is there?

One thing I have learned from sales that does apply to regular life:  When a potential customer keeps coming up with unrelated objections to a sale, then that means they do not want to tell you what the real reason is.  This is sort of scary.  Maybe like Sealynx suggested, he is gay.  Maybe he really doesn't have it in him to remain interested in me now that he has trapped me. (He has, after all, told me how much more attractive he found me when I was still attached to someone else.) Maybe he just wants to be Peter Pan or maybe his bitch of a mother so programmed him for failure he is hell bent on sabotaging himself  and our marriage in the bargain.


So NOW WHAT?

[Redhead Erin]

Dear Ted,

I am sick and tired of all your bullshit in this marriage.  You knew on the day we got married what kind of person I was.  You knew what I wanted and expected and that I would take our vows seriously.  You knew I would expect you to keep your vows to me, also. 

We were very troubled before the wedding, but you promised that if I would go through with this, things would work out.  I loved you so much, and I needed you and was very scared of losing you, and I made myself believe that with time, everything would be OK. 

Now it has been seven years and things are not OK. I know there are some very deep issues going on here, but I don't know what they are.  All I know is how I feel and the things I see happening between us.

You became very angry when I told you how alone I feel.  Yet, your only reply was, "if that is how you feel, then leave."  We both know that that is not what I want, and I don't think you really want that, either.  Still you refuse to discuss this with me.  Whenever I try to bring up any aspect of our marriage that I feel needs attention, you put me off and don't want to discuss it. 

This has really become an untenable situation.  I have needs and wants, just as you do.  I understand your need for space, but it it is neither more nor less important than my need for togetherness.  I feel as if I am expected to give up quite a bit in this marriage, but you don't seem to want to give up anything.

These are the options we have:

1. You can continue refusing to talk to me in any meaningful way.  Things will never get better and we will continue to have stupid arguments until one of us finally gives up.

2. We  can negotiate to solve some of our issues.   We have had enough therapy, we know the drill.  We will choose one issue at a time to work on, work on it until we reach a solution, and then do whatever we said we would do.  If we go this route we will have to write stuff down and make up schedules for doing things. I will insist (like a good therapist would) on having contracts and holding each other accountable.   It will be a great way to handle surface issues like when to pay the bills and whose turn it is to clean the cat box. Then we can go through the motions of having a stable marriage and as long as we both stick to all our agreements, contracts, and schedules, things should be calm and predictable. As soon as one of us breaks one of the complicated rules, all hell might break loose and months of hard work might fall apart.

3.  We can make an effort to really listen to each other.  I can stop saying ,"why do you hate me?" and taking everything so personally, and you can make an effort to really understand what I mean when I tell you things.  You can understand why I feel so alone and better yet, you will know how to get me to stop saying it by removing some of the reasons. I will understand why you need so much space, and then maybe I won't feel threatened.  It will be really really hard and we will not like all of it.  It will be a ton of work.I will cry and maybe you will too.  We will say a lot of things the other does not want to hear at first. We will both get a little hurt in the process.  It will suck.

If we do this, you have to promise to be honest with yourself and with me, and to give your very best effort to this. That can be a lot harder than it sounds.

At the end, we will understand ourselves and each other a lot better. We will know whether we want to continue on together.  If we do, we will do so with greater empathy and understanding, and we really will have a strong marriage.  If not, we can let go gently and with few hard feelings. In the worst case, even if we choose not to stay married, we will probably be able to go on as friends and still be good parents to our son.

You may not know or believe it, but I have stood on this precipice many times before.  For every ultimatum I have issued, I have bitten back three. You probably believe I am not serious, but I am and I always have been. My optimism and desire to believe that things will change for the better is what keeps me here.  I pull back at the last moment and don't carry through with my threats because I don't want to shut the door on hope for the future.  It is becoming more and more apparent to me that things are not gong to get better unless we both work at this together. 

You always say you don't know what I want.  Well, this time I will tell you.  If you choose to do nothing, we should start thinking about how to end our marriage with the least upset to Kiddo.  It is unfair to all of us to keep going in such a hopeless state. If you choose to work on surface issues alone, I will go along with that and hope things will evolve for the better. 

What I really want, and it should be no surprise to you, is for you to tell me that you want to face our problems together, whatever they turn out to be, and to do all we can to make our marriage strong and beautiful.  It scares me to death to think about this because, of course, what if we fail?  What if it turns out that we are just wrong for each other? What if you tell me things I really don't want to know? I am terrified. I am almost as afraid that you will say yes as that you will say no.

It took a great amount of courage to write all this.  I cried most of the time and I am almost shaking now. Yes, I who am not scared of anything, am afraid of the difference between "yes" and "no."  I want to beg you on my knees, please choose the last option.  Please, please let our marriage be worth the effort. Please don't abandon me. Please love me enough to give this your best shot. Please love me.

Remember, I believed in you seven years ago . . . .

Erin

[Redhead Erin]

Sex is really pretty weird.  It’s like money, it hardly ever means what we try to say it means--it always means so much more.

Sex is really about physical desire and how that is stirred up is so individual and unique.  There can be a lot of things hampering your husband’s desire for you--from actual physical problems, to fears, to feeling inadequate, to misconceptions about aging.  Notice all those are about him, not you.  But if he gets pushed, he will say its about you.

When I was single, sex was all about fun.  I have a history of rather grotesque sexual abuse, and at some point I decided that nobody was going to take the enjoyment of sex away from me.  I had a good time, I admit.  I had a couple periods of joyful promiscuity interspersed with some long relationships.  I cheated on every relationship I ever had, except for this marriage.  Usually the reason was something like, I was ready for more commitment, he was not, so I said "Screw you!" and slept around. 

When I started sleeping with my husband, I was in a bad place emotionally.  My fiance was dying of cancer, and I had not had sex in months.  My body ached all the time from the stress and the enforced celibacy didn't help any. So I started drinking and sleeping around.  It was the only time I ever slept with anybody I met as a dancer. Ted and I were hanging out a lot anyway, because his wife had left him and we were both lonely and miserable.  So it was pretty easy to start sleeping with him, especially when we had been drinking.  For a while I swore every time that it would not happen again next time, but then Rick lost his battle and there was really no reason not to. 

Ted has been the only one since Rick died 10 years ago. I am not sure exactly why, but I have not even wanted to sleep with another man in all that time. 

One thing is, I look at sex differently now.  I don't see anything wrong with sleeping around when you are single, but when you get married, that changes things. Now sex is part of the marriage, something that is special and kept just for your spouse.  Even as a dancer, I have boundaries that no one can cross.  As one of my married colleagues says, you have to have something special to keep to yourself and take home with you at the end of the day.

Also, sex is not so much just a sport for me anymore, it is more about the relationship and emotions.  It can make me feel safe, loved, cherished, beautiful . . . . you get the picture.  When he is not interested in me, I feel like, OMG, he does not love me any more, or maybe he doesn't think I am pretty enough any more.  I used to worry about my weight at times like this, but since I lost so much, at least I don't have that hanging over my head any more.  I think it makes things worse because he tends to withdraw in several ways at once, so its not like he is still a loving husband who is involved with other aspects of my life. Its more like living with a clam. This tends to make me bitchy and demanding (no surprise) which makes him withdraw al the more.

One thing that has been at the back of my mind, and this really does bother me, is that he says he found me much more attractive when I was with somebody else.  I am not sure why this is.  It might be something about conquest, but Knowing Ted as I do, I have a hunch it is more about avoiding responsibility.  My gut instinct is that he just does not want to deal with me as a complete, troubled human being.  It was waaaaay more fun when I was just a f*ck buddy.  I have news for him--it was more fun for me then, too. But I didn't get pregnant by myself. In other words, he needs to grow up.

I wonder what he thought was going to happen when we got married and had a child? If he had thought ahead, he must have known that things would change.  He certainly knew how I felt about monogamy within a marriage. I made that abundantly clear before we got married. I was not going to consider going outside the marriage for sex and made it clear that if he did, that would be grounds for divorce.  So its not like I deceived him on that score.  What am I thinking?  this is a man who is so inept at thinking ahead he cannot even play checkers. OK, another mystery solved.

[Sealynx]

Hi Erin,
That is pretty scary because it fits a pattern I've read about. I am not a therapist so I don't want to say he has a particular problem,  but I will say that I would be just as upset as you are. The pattern I've read about is that of a  "cerebral narcissist".  There is a discussion of it on this board...

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?topic=771.0



You may want to look this up and think about it. The description includes low sex drive and/or lack of. Again, I hope you can talk with a therapist about this. Hopefully you have gained some valuable insights from having written all of this down and are now ready to process them.