Hitler and serial killers

[Nonameanymore]

I am translating away my memoir and can't help thinking that my NM is not any different than a serial killer who enjoys torturing his victims and Hitler who enjoyed the control to torture at ease.
Does anyone else feels that their NMs did certain things just for kicks?

I understand that there is physical abuse that I never suffered (although she would do such things as shave my head to punish me that I am not sure if they fall under physical abuse) but what difference would it make if the pain was physical and not emotional or mental?

Victor Frankl in his book talks about using his mental energy and will to detach from the physical torture but I think for me was the other way around. My body was intact but my mind and heart were all messed up.

Anything to share?

P.

[Ami]

My M loved to shock me, (((P)))). She used to tell me sexual things that were too advanced for me and love it when I would be uncomfortable. She would stare with   joy from hurting me.
 My mind was on tilt. It did not compute that a M would  love to hurt a daughter.
 The really hard part was how much she enjoyed being sadistic.
 I think that if she were retarded, it would not have been so bad but that she willfully tried to hurt me for fun was the thing that made me almost go insane. Know what I mean?           xxoo  Ami


PS I admire people who can speak more than one language. How many do you speak? Your English is flawless. I am studying Spanish and could only hope of ever being as good as you are!

[Nonameanymore]

Thanks Ami,

What you wrote about them enjoying being sadistic is exactly how I feel about her. I mean, I don't get it.
I was with a friend a month ago and she came home from work and her daugher aged 4 was bored because school was off for the summer. She played ball with her daughter in the balcony for two hours! I mean, I haven't been around people with small kids until recently and it was shocking for to see parents being patient and nice to their kids!

If it's any consolation, NM shared her sexual encounters as well. She had some issues with her second husband and came to my room to tell me that he wasn't interested in her pleasure so she taped them to show him. I swear that I think should I have asked to see the tape she would have shown it to me! She tried to ward me off sex (she saw me as a property that shouldn't be ...., )so she told me that when a man ejaculates, it's like he is pissing inside a woman. It was always confusing for me because she was contradicting herself all the time.

I think she used me as an emotional punchbag - she saw early on that she could take things out on me and she never stopped.

Thanks for your kudo on language - I also speak Portuguese and French.

P xxx

[Ami]

Thanks Ami,

What you wrote about them enjoying being sadistic is exactly how I feel about her. I mean, I don't get it.
I was with a friend a month ago and she came home from work and her daugher aged 4 was bored because school was off for the summer. She played ball with her daughter in the balcony for two hours! I mean, I haven't been around people with small kids until recently and it was shocking for to see parents being patient and nice to their kids!

If it's any consolation, NM shared her sexual encounters as well. She had some issues with her second husband and came to my room to tell me that he wasn't interested in her pleasure so she taped them to show him. I swear that I think should I have asked to see the tape she would have shown it to me! She tried to ward me off sex (she saw me as a property that shouldn't be ...., )so she told me that when a man ejaculates, it's like he is pissing inside a woman. It was always confusing for me because she was contradicting herself all the time.

I think she used me as an emotional punchbag - she saw early on that she could take things out on me and she never stopped.

Thanks for your kudo on language - I also speak Portuguese and French.

P xxx

Yes, sex is a good way to shock a kid. I remember how gross I thought it was. Yes, my M wanted to Zombify me by sucking out my mind and my guts and making me her clone. She did a damn good job, too .

Are you as fluent in French and Portugese as you are in English?How did you get so comfortable with English?                Ami

[Nonameanymore]

Portuguese is fluent - I spent 4 years in Lisbon. It was easy though because grammar and syntax are similar to Greek.
French was fluent, had very good vocabulary but since I learned Portuguese, most of it is gone, but I can still read well but not speak it. I learned Englsh at school, then spent 6 years in London. I may have good ear? I remember I thought I spoke English, then moved to London and had to learn it all over again. My school teacher was American so I was told off in London many times when I was writing color instead of colour, behavior instead of behaviour and center instead of centre!

[Twoapenny]

Hi P,

I think shaving a child's head falls under several categories of abuse - that's just horrific.  Not only is it a physical act but that's a long term humiliation - you've got to have that for months until it's all grown back again.  It's a vile form of punishment.

My mum never hit me but my mind and heart are broken and it's oh so difficult to put those back together. 

I had a breakdown when my little boy was a toddler and my mum spent months afterwards pretending she had said things she hadn't and hadn't said things she had.  I'd drop him off on my way to work and she'd be out and claim we'd not discussed her babysitting, or she'd call during the day screeching "where are you?" claiming I'd told her I'd be back by 1pm and she had to go out.  I thought that kind of mental mind game was a pretty nasty thing to do to someone who was getting over a breakdown.

[Nonameanymore]

Thanks for validating this TaP,
Ironically the hairchopping is the only thing that NM acknowledges because there was physical evidence of it. I was 14 when she did it.
It was horrible. It still is. When I wrote about, I thought I was over it but it's one of those moments that I can't just get over. I don't think I ever will.

I think your NM gaslighted you - I am NC for ages and she can still gaslight me, even if/when I am not playing her game.

P.

[Twoapenny]

P, I think you're right, and I think lacking proof is what makes it so hard to deal with.  As you say, your mum admits to the head shaving because it was clearly visible - but most of the other stuff isn't.  So it's your word against hers - impossible to prove either way.  Even when there are witnesses, I've found it's usually dismissed as being 'a bit of a joke' or 'she's just a bit stressed out, she doesn't mean that'.

I was at my cousin's baby's christening, chatting to a small group of their friends - people I'd met before but didn't know well, so you do the sort of 'social small talk' bit.  There were about ten of us, including my mum, standing in a small cluster.  I was three months pregnant with my son.  I hadn't told many people and wasn't showing so no-one in this group knew about the baby, or that my baby's dad had run for the hills when I told him about the pregnancy.  My cousin's husband came over to say hi and leant forward to kiss me on the cheek.  As he did my mum screeched "don't get too close to her, she's looking for a father for that baby".  I can honestly say I've never been so humiliated in my life.  My cousin just ignored her but he went bright red and everyone else in the group just didn't know what to say or do.  Despite the fact there were ten people there my mother, the day after, was horrified that I'd suggest she'd ever say anything like that and couldn't believe I'd be wicked enough to say so.

My therapist keeps telling me to trust what I feel and how I respond.  I find this really hard but it makes sense.  You sound as if you've had a lot of success in life through work and travel and you've obviously done/are doing a lot of work on yourself.   You're doing really well P and you are already ahead of the game.  Once you see your parent(s) for what they are part of the battle is already won.  I think some things probably are impossible to get over, like the head shaving thing, but I'm hoping those are the things that we can learn to live with.

Thinking of you ((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))

[binks]

I think that what serial killers and narcissists have in common is a lack of conscience. Serial killers are sociopaths, although not all sociopaths are serial killers.

I have had the misfortune to know two sociopaths in the past and they shared many of the same behaviours as narcissists, but didn't seem to need the 'supply' in the same way. They also didn't care about what other people thought of them, they were so secure in there own opinions of themselves.

Ami - my NM used to tell me sexual things when I was really young too. I got really mixed messages from her, just part of her lack of boundaries and controlling behaviour I guess.

Persephone - I was an emotional punchbag too. Luckily NM was not able to get physically abusive although she did try. She has always been very puny and weak, with some arthritis and doing a sedentary job her whole life. I was already stronger than her from about 4 years old. At that age she slapped me round the face and tried to push me to the ground, she didn't have the strength and I pushed her back really hard. I am still really physically strong in my arms to this day.

[BonesMS]

I am translating away my memoir and can't help thinking that my NM is not any different than a serial killer who enjoys torturing his victims and Hitler who enjoyed the control to torture at ease.
Does anyone else feels that their NMs did certain things just for kicks?

I understand that there is physical abuse that I never suffered (although she would do such things as shave my head to punish me that I am not sure if they fall under physical abuse) but what difference would it make if the pain was physical and not emotional or mental?

Victor Frankl in his book talks about using his mental energy and will to detach from the physical torture but I think for me was the other way around. My body was intact but my mind and heart were all messed up.

Anything to share?

P.

One of the sick and twisted things that NWomb-Donor would do, simply for her kicks, was to regularly poke my NGCB with a meat fork!!!!!!  She NEVER cared how he felt about being the recipient of THAT!!!!!!!

Bones

[Ami]

I think that what serial killers and narcissists have in common is a lack of conscience. Serial killers are sociopaths, although not all sociopaths are serial killers.

I have had the misfortune to know two sociopaths in the past and they shared many of the same behaviours as narcissists, but didn't seem to need the 'supply' in the same way. They also didn't care about what other people thought of them, they were so secure in there own opinions of themselves.

Ami - my NM used to tell me sexual things when I was really young too. I got really mixed messages from her, just part of her lack of boundaries and controlling behaviour I guess.

Persephone - I was an emotional punchbag too. Luckily NM was not able to get physically abusive although she did try. She has always been very puny and weak, with some arthritis and doing a sedentary job her whole life. I was already stronger than her from about 4 years old. At that age she slapped me round the face and tried to push me to the ground, she didn't have the strength and I pushed her back really hard. I am still really physically strong in my arms to this day.

(((Binks)))) No one outside us( children of NM's) would get this, I don't think. When I tell other people, they usually look blank. Sometimes ,I wonder if they are denial about their own past or simply horrified at mine. I think it is the latter,though.
*I* get horrified when I hear other people talk about what their NM's did.I am so used to mine that it has become" normal" in my mind. It is not " normal" but I have lived with it so long that *I* am not shocked by it but I can see that  other people are. This usually feels strange.
 I bet you know what I mean.
I felt shocked to hear about your's and P's abuse. I always feel shocked to hear about Bones.
    xxxoo  Ami

[BonesMS]

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Ami))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Bones

[Ami]

P, I think you're right, and I think lacking proof is what makes it so hard to deal with.  As you say, your mum admits to the head shaving because it was clearly visible - but most of the other stuff isn't.  So it's your word against hers - impossible to prove either way.  Even when there are witnesses, I've found it's usually dismissed as being 'a bit of a joke' or 'she's just a bit stressed out, she doesn't mean that'.

I was at my cousin's baby's christening, chatting to a small group of their friends - people I'd met before but didn't know well, so you do the sort of 'social small talk' bit.  There were about ten of us, including my mum, standing in a small cluster.  I was three months pregnant with my son.  I hadn't told many people and wasn't showing so no-one in this group knew about the baby, or that my baby's dad had run for the hills when I told him about the pregnancy.  My cousin's husband came over to say hi and leant forward to kiss me on the cheek.  As he did my mum screeched "don't get too close to her, she's looking for a father for that baby".  I can honestly say I've never been so humiliated in my life.  My cousin just ignored her but he went bright red and everyone else in the group just didn't know what to say or do.  Despite the fact there were ten people there my mother, the day after, was horrified that I'd suggest she'd ever say anything like that and couldn't believe I'd be wicked enough to say so.

My therapist keeps telling me to trust what I feel and how I respond.  I find this really hard but it makes sense.  You sound as if you've had a lot of success in life through work and travel and you've obviously done/are doing a lot of work on yourself.   You're doing really well P and you are already ahead of the game.  Once you see your parent(s) for what they are part of the battle is already won.  I think some things probably are impossible to get over, like the head shaving thing, but I'm hoping those are the things that we can learn to live with.

Thinking of you ((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))

They are SOOOOOOO horrible, ((((Twoapenny)))))
 My M usually got me when I was alone with her but she had some doozies, too. Once when I was flying to college,I asked her if she wanted to call me when I got there. As I was walking to get on the plane she said,"No, don't bother, I'll hear if the plane crashes."
                               Lots of love and comfort to you,       Ami

[Nonameanymore]

Ami - I was talking to someone the other day and he said 'your life is weird'. I said ' when you grow up with an N, this is how your life is'. He misunderstood and sort of accused me of using my uprbringing as an excuse not to progrees. I said 'NO, I said my life seems pretty normal to me!!!!'
That plane crashing comment was horrible!

Bones, poking is horrible too. I find every kind of physical teasing disgusting and appaling. Maybe she thought he was a turkey???!!! Sorry to joke about it, but they see the world distorted so maybe she saw him with wings, coming out of the oven...

Binks my NM used to love to slap 'a la Italiana' which is with the back of the hand that really hurts. She didn't do it often but when she did it hurt like hell. Tell us about the sociopaths, that must have been a horrible experience...

TaP, thanks so much for the kind words. All I feel is that I have enough life experience but no real accomplishments like friends and social acquaintances have so far. Upon returning to Greece, my best friend accused me of not having financial security by now. In a way she is right but I feel I have been on a very rich emotional journey that is priceless. But who can get us when they grew up with loving parents who are always there to support and offer love and tendenrness?
Strangely enough most of the times I don't mind being so alone. Not that I want to live isolated it's just that I don't get crazy when I am left alone. It's a given for me, I got used to it.

Irrelevant but does your screen jump when you reach a certain point in the post? It's really difficult to write after line 15 or something ...

P.

[Ami]

Dear P
 Dr G said if you make Fire Fox your default one, it may help the jumping.
 *I* am so used to my history that the plane comment does not seem that bad BUT your hair shaving thing seems horrible.My things seems so much less than other peoples' but perhaps we are all like that, minimizing our own history as part of our denial. What do you think?       Ami