Emotions - questions

[sKePTiKal]

So, I'm wondering...

how do we know what to call our emotions? And why are some "good"... some "bad"... some sought after: "the pursuit of happiness" versus avoiding anger at all costs.? My wondering comes about after a sleepless night.

My emotions about the upcoming move engaged my brain a whole lot earlier than normal. Ordinarily, I'd say it was anxiety keeping me up; but is it? What if my definition of this feeling is skewed, inaccurate, a product of my "conditioning" or programming? What if what I feel is excitement and anticipation, instead? Enjoyment, even, of the long list of things to do in preparation as I get to dispose of "stuff" that's merely taking up room and collecting dirt and organizing the important things so I can find them and enjoy them... I don't find fear in that mix of emotions at all, which I'd expect with "anxiety".

... but I "call" it anxiety, because that's what I've been told it is... and I've also been told this feeling (for the sake of discussion)  is "bad"...

I wonder if it's possible that this is how some of our emotional "stuckness" or confusion came about. That N(p)arents might've sent a very clear message about "good/bad" emotions either during a trauma or so repeatedly that it became second nature... and so we develop specific glass half-full or empty attitudes about our various feelings...

that make no more sense than to say that inhaling is "good" air and exhaling is "bad" air... because if you don't exhale you're not breathing any more than if you don't inhale.

Another "complication" about emotions that I've been thinking about and trying to observe... is applying B&W, either/or, categories or definitions to emotions. I know that's the way my mom experiences emotions. Like a computer - one/zero, yes/no, true/false, good/bad. But emotions simply don't reduce that far... even depression can be more grayscale (256 or more distinct shades of gray) than simply black or white. Emotions are more technicolor... and they can even change depending on the amount and type of light (perspective) that they're viewed in. An infinite number of shades...

and so often, language - words - simply don't exist in our vocabulary to accurately describe the specific shade. We almost have to start inventing new words or phrases to get at the nugget of experience and the exact "shade" of what we're feeling.

Thoughts? Comments? Experiences?

[CB123]

Yes, yes, yes!

I have had these thoughts.  What if emotions are actually a thermometer...or perhaps a barometer?  They are informative, that's all.  Or perhaps a systems light on the dash of your car?  Some are warnings, some are simply informational.  What if you don't know how to read them...or they say nothing more to you than "check engine soon"?

I agree with you about being confused about exactly what emotion you are feeling.  I think we do that a lot--perhaps everyone does.  If moving produced anxiety in your mom when you were growing up, then you are going to feel anxious without knowing why...perhaps change of any sort was anxiety producing in your home.  Perhaps, if you could step out of those old garments, you could feel true excitement.

I think your thread goes with Persephone's thread about misplaced anger....I think that anger is also a catchall emotion that doesnt truly express what we feel.  It is much more empowering than a lot of other emotions, so it becomes the default emotion and that's why we "struggle" with anger.  I have wondered if it is just lack of imagination?  When I have felt "true" anger it has felt a lot cleaner than when I have used it in place of my more terrifying emotions.

I find that I am quick to settle into resentment and victimization.  They feel comfy like a pair of old, soft houseslippers.  When I am tired and confused, I feel like I deserve their comfort.  But there is no running in them, no real progress ahead.  I can't put them on these days.

I am running out the door and my screen has started jumping so that is all for me right now...I am looking forward to other comment s on this subject.

CB

[CB123]

Yuck...I hate these jumpy screens.  Makes me end my posts in a hurry just to escape them and I never end them the way I want.

PR, thanks for bringing up this thread.  This is along the lines of what I am pondering these days and it's good to have someone else to bounce ideas off of.  I love moves myself, they seem to create this kind of fresh thinking--a change in environment is a shot in the arm to me.  So, I wonder if you wont have a burst of creativity coming up?

CB

[Izzy_*now*]

I, for one, or for another, have some difficulty identifying my emotions.

The last 2 Monday mornings I had to go see a Surgeon at the hospital, and both times I had a sleepless night. It wasn't fear, anxiety maybe that I would oversleep and not arrive at my scheduled time,  but I had set the alarm well in advance to allow for my slow dressing around the pain, but once I saw the Dr. all was well. Sometimes I think it is because it is just "something different".

I felt a bit anxious that my lawyer was coming yesterday, but I don't know why. He is not one that fits "The only good lawyer is a dead lawyer" type. I always learn more about how he is handling my case to date and then I give him more updated information and I know he is working hard for me. I know it is not anxiety. It is "something different". (He likes me, I know, is young ,married with 3 little children and would like to have me attend their church Xmas Presentation on Dec 5, but surgery is Dec 1.)

I also learn from him that many thoughts I have are dead on with what he is thinking, so I am not concerned about how I am presenting myself.

I was in a state of anxiety when I was 8 and we were moving from one farm to another, and all I wondered was how Mom would move all those mason jars in the cellar without breaking them.

I have had 3 hours sleep and am wide awake with aches and pains, but am not concerned as I can go back to bed whenever I want to.

So if I am not concerned, anxious, angry, I don't know what to call the emotion that "gets me worked up" over something different--different how? Just from my previous way of living?

Make any sense?

Izzy

[Sealynx]

Hi PR,
Great thread. I was thinking along a similar line last night. My thought was that our lives were changed by something you mentioned. That something is being denied..... the simple pursuit of happiness.

More than any one emotion, I find that most people are simply pursuing happiness. They don't have to stop and examine or judge their feelings and have little interest in doing so. One of my neighbors gets up every morning and runs 10 miles because she loves to run. She also has a really bad anxiety disorder and recently lost her eye, but you wouldn't know from meeting her. That is not what occurpies her mind.

She goes for 40 mile bike rides on weekends. She loves football games. She will tell you that she is training for her next marathon and when it is. If you ask she will discuss her anxiety but dealing with it isn't her reason for being alive. If you ask her what she wants, she will tell you about a high end road bike, not about how much she wants her anxiety to go away.

In my opinion the worst thing our N parents did was both deny our feelings and make them the focus of our lives. Instead of doing things we contemplated their rightness or wrongness. What results is spending all our time worrying about what is broken and not what works. That is why I think it is so important to find a passion outside of myself. Its the reason I bought a kayak this summer. Feelings exist to show us what we want from the world. I think for many of us our upbringing focused on intangible expressions of emotion rather than their action principles. I think one healthy way to see what we feel is to try doing lots of things and see which ones bring out pleasure. In other words the reverse approach to dwelling on feeling.

I may get another kayak soon so I can take the people I love out with me to play in the surf or visit hidden spots on a river. That to me is living an emotion. It is what most people do. We were taught to look for tiny signs of acceptance or rejection and I think many of us still live at that level of being. We were never allowed to DO our emotions. I think acting out our feelings through some passion also gives us a stronger sense of self. We are doing rather than being "acted upon" and hoping that someone will spot what we need.

I also think that our emotions go where we send them. I don't know where you are moving but if it is somewhere entirely new, why not go down to the bookstore and buy a travel guide for the new area. Are there beautiful nature trails to hike? A must see attraction? How about the best food in town? I would turn that anxiety into excitement that is doable.

Best of luck with your move!!
S

Izzy,
I have felt exactly what you are feeling, anxiety about the new. Again, at least in my case, I think it is about over thinking and feeling. It is a habit that N mom taught me. Nothing can be done without thinking it to death least I do something wrong. It takes all the joy out of just doing something. It also limits the event because in my head I am no longer open to possibilities of some strange good thing happening. I have already gone through every moment of the meeting or issue at hand and decided how it will be. What is left to live in life when my thinking has it all figured out ahead of time??? Maybe we should find a  mantra of some sort to run through our minds when we start over-thinking, something to take the place of all the useless anxiety. "Just do it" the NIKE mantra, isn't a bad one.

[Ami]

Before I went numb at 14, I remember feeling emotions. I think it is natural to feel our emotions unless we have to shut them down from outside forces.
The trick is to be able to access them,again.
 A whole person has access to all of themselves. I think that is what we are trying to do by being on the Board, trying to access those pushed down parts.                              Ami

[HeartofPilgrimage]

There are some good videos --- that I have bought for teaching --- that explain at least in part the role of emotions (I think that emotions actually have such a broad role in our lives that no one topic could cover it all). One is a NOVA presentation on the brain ... there was this guy that was in a car accident and had a brain injury ... now he recognizes everything and everyone in his life, but thinks the "real" person and the "real" place have been taken over and replaced by an identical twin. The doctors treating him believe that this is because the circuits in his brain used to communicate emotion to him have been damaged. So, although he sees that places and people are the same, he can't feel the same emotion toward them so he firmly believes they are not the "true" mother and dad, the "true" home. For the most part he lives normally but if you ask him, he's just going along to get along ... and sometimes (due to his brain damage, I guess) he loses it because he gets so frustrated with all the "impostors." So, we don't just recognize stuff with our intellect, each person and thing we have encountered has an emotional marker too.

Also, we make sooo many decisions every day based on emotion ... what do you want for dinner? Well, I FEEL like having chicken. Not logical, emotional. Why seek for another parking place rather than take that one right there? Well, I FEEL that that one is too far to walk. Our whole attention and consciousness would be sucked up by trivial decisions if we had to think logically about every choice we make all day. But usually we don't think of those "feelings" as emotion but they really are, although low-level.

I personally have come to believe that emotions are neutral. They give you a heads-up that something important is happening, how intense of importance it has, and in what way. Anger says "something important and hurtful has happened"; joy says "something important and wonderful has happened"; etc. And there are so many strengths of emotions --- from irritation to rage, from amusing to hilarious, etc. So if that is what emotions do, how can they be bad? Or good? Except they FEEL bad or good. But FEELING a bad emotion is not morally bad any more than feeling bad with the flu is morally bad.

I even think the feeling of hate is neutral. I am a Christian, and I know the Bible admonishes us against hating others. But my understanding of the way the Bible uses these terms is --- it is talking about actions. In other words, love in the Bible is about the way you act toward others, and so is hate. So the way I interpret this stuff is --- we are to be generous, kind, etc. even if we don't feel like it. In fact, the few people I have HATED are the people I have loved that have seriously hurt me ... so I don't even think hate is the opposite of love, but rather only possible when you love.

Where I've had problems recently is when I set boundaries with some narcissists, other people in my life think I'm being "hard-nosed" or "taking a no-prisoners attitude" when all I am doing is refusing to move my boundaries around. I refuse to apologize when I didn't do anything wrong. I refuse to lower my standards for how somebody has to act in order for me to volunteer to be around them. Actually, I don't think this is in contradiction to my above statement about being a Christian. I Corinthians 13 says that love expects the best out of the one being loved (look it up!) ... and I think not expecting anything out of people is not loving them properly. I get really hot under the collar when people I love say I"M part of the problem because I've set appropriate boundaries and will not move them around to suit a narcissist. OK, now MY emotions are getting revved up!!!!

My emotional problem is not the feelings but that I let them run away with me. I am in a big battle with Ns right now, and I just get so worked up that I get physically sick. That seems to me to be letting them win. When you are so emotional, what are some things you guys/ladies do to help yourself calm back down? It's not that I think my emotions are bad, but I don't like them getting the best of me.

Oh, and Izzy, do you think that you just feel nervous or even just a bit anxious about the lawyer's visit just because you know you are going to have to make some decisions or deal with really important issues? I don't think anxiety 1) is always bad --- it puts you on alert when you've got something important ahead, and 2) is always directed at PEOPLE, sometimes it's directed at an important EVENT we are thinking about. Also, I think there are different intensities of anxiety --- intense when we are dreading something like surgery (or the visit from an N), mild when we know we are going to have to make some decisions, etc. I even think excitement is sort of the flip side of anxiety --- when we know something important is going to happen but we are looking forward to it.

[Izzy_*now*]

Hi,
I might be in the 'pursuit of satisfaction".

I made each trip to the hospital and arrived, as requested, 15 minutes before my scheduled time. I could not be rebuked by anyone there.

Re the lawyer, well I am 70 and he is young and tall and very, very handsome, (oh such fun for an older woman    ) and when all was said and done, regarding events, I had followed through, as he would have expected me to. No rebukes from him.

My history is to have been anxious because I would receive no 'pat on the back', no "good for you' ....which I needed back then from my dysfunctional family, not stony silence over a report card or whatever, feelings unknown, likely fear and worthlessness.

An example is that my N-sister said, after the car crash 40 years ago, that it was my fault. I disgreed and she said it was because I "was there". Sure I was there, but I had asked him if he wanted me to drive, (No) I begged him to slow down, (No). I always remember that and wondered if my thinking was all skewed. I could have chosen not to go to the dance, but I didn't think of it as taking a risk, and many things we do are risky. We don't expect to have a tub accident, or spill boiling hot water on ourselves, or take a stroll in the woods and be attacked by a grizzly bear. Things happen!

This is all new to me that all the people with whom I deal are not Ns in any way, shape or form, and I am becoming accustomed to feeling good about myself, and speaking up for myself. (I should have left home as soon as I could walk!)

Izzy

[sKePTiKal]

WOWSERS... y'all have given me a LOT to think to about and chew on. I rather expected that my post would pass into the archives... relatively un-noted. It's odd to HAVE to such questions, isn't it? (I'm OK with that...)

I want to reply to several of you individually... there are plenty of branching avenues from my original question... meanwhile, keep on discussing amongst yourselves!!       I'm learning a lot... see more about the question.

CB - I've been a gypsy most of my life: moving at least every year for many years. Back then, I was in search of "a new place, new rules, new definitions - a place where people understood me". I didn't find it. Now, my stays in places are measured in at least a decade... twice, in fact. I have the most un-natural energy right now, for getting all packed up and ready to go!  Yes, creativity is a big part of it. Hubby's been trying to "get me excited" - not feeling it's all drudgery dealing with the business end of the purchase/move - and so I've indulged Twiggy's original occupational bent: interior design. Yah buddy - this part is gonna be FUN!!  (Helen: if you're still out there... my design style is going in the direction of "Pirate's Lair"!!!)

CB: check engine soon... LOL!!! That's it exactly. How one interprets that "warning message" is what I think I've been trying to figure out. Is it a crisis? Do I call AAA? 911? or can I wait until black smoke comes out of the exhaust? or the next visit to my mechanic?

Pilgrimage: remember to breathe! take a second - or ten - or twenty... to just let yourself feel your body and feel that you are SAFE in your body... and that will help you balance the intensity and racing of the emotion - note, it doesn't ERASE the emotion... just let's you decide whether it's life/death, gives your brain a chance to see "how it fits" in the scheme of things and rate it's importance or urgency.

Ami: YEAH, feeling those emotions opens up the "technicolor" experience... it's not just "blue" or "yellow"... it's an infinite number of shades of that one color.

Iz, ma amie... I think you get what my question is about. Why do we call certain feelings/emotions certain things? Assign them a value judgement of good or bad? And most importantly - do we even have a clue if we're right or not? (Does that really matter???) What about the levels of intensity? Why don't we have good, code-type language for those? What wonders lurk if we throw our "teaching" or conditioning off a cliff... and just open ourselves to the feelings themselves? I had to laugh at the "pursuit of satisfaction"... I could think of lots of things that I felt satisfied with or about... but nothing even registered on the happiness part of the color wheel. Likes, wants... these were all verboten to me... and then I started to slide slowly into them. Next thing I knew, I was an opinionated fool about what made me happy, what I liked & didn't!! But I wasn't always accurate... BIG DIFFERENCE. The difference I think, were the "shades" of color...



Sealynx: yes, happiness... in it's pure, ephemeral form. It doesn't have to be lasting - it's simply joy in being in the moment.

[Izzy_*now*]

Hi PR
and in this 'pursuit of happiness', does one ever find complete happiness? I doubt it, so I use the word satisfaction or contentment.

I see the happiness arrives in only fits and starts and little bursts but is not an ongoing feeling, as there are too many other feelings to get in the way.

Let's say you have a jab of happiness to receive an email from a good friend, but happiness fades and you read 3-4 pages of troubles she is having. You feel sadness for her. Then at the end she says she made it all up, and you are happy once more that your friend is okay, but then you think, "Gee I outta be ticked off at her for doing this to me" and poof goes the happiness feeling again and you are feeling 'ticked off". Up and down, up and down!

That's what I think about life. We were led astray by Ozzie and Harriet Nelson and Ward and June Cleaver!

Perhaps the pursuit of happiness could be happy within itself if one is happy about pursuing it,and never feels another feeling?

What do you think?

Love
Iz

[teartracks]

Hi PR,

I've been a vagabond.  I've ALWAYS had a problem viewing where I live as 'home' in the sense that most people think of home.  When I was a child, I remember drawing the same picture over and over and over.  The picture was of me standing  outside of a home.  Inside the home the windows glowed with soft, welcoming, warm light.  But I always stood outside, looking in with what I now recognize as yearning.  Looking back I recognize these drawings as a symbol of how I felt about my FOO house.  It was a place where we all were manipulated, dominated, and intimidated by narcissistic mom.  It truly was a 'one owner' house.

To this day, wherever I am IS home.  But I have yet to actually live out what I yearned for when I drew that same picture over and over and over.

I have been diagnosed with GAD.  So I identify with your thought that part of what you're feeling is anxiety.  

I also identify with the lying awake in anticipation, albeit unconscious, of a next day's event.

I think we'll all learn bunches from your thread.  Thanks.

tt
PS-I bet you're going to enjoy hearing those tiniest remaining hints of Elizabethan brogue at OBX...

[sKePTiKal]

Ah yes, tt - the "hoi toiders" have an accent so thick that it's like hearing someone from another planet speak! As to "home"... my "nesting" instinct has prevailed over lots of physical spaces... but I've always hauled certain items with me and "made do" with what I had and then customized using my acquired crafty/artsy skills. Living with hubby kinda threw a wrench into that process, he's got great spatial awareness and ideas - sometimes I have to nix things or redirect him - but for the most part, we've created space that works and expresses both of us. This time is different in that I get to design ahead of time! Not that I won't be "making do" with some of my stuff until I decide what would "work"... but instead of creating a nest haphazardly... I get to do this intentionally. That's a first.

As to the "anxiety" - that's just the whole point of my question. I'm not convinced that the feeling I had WAS anxiety, due to the lack of apprehension or fear. It was more being excited - in a positive way... of being so full of energy for the tasks at hand that I wanted to keep going and let the normal routines of daily life take a back seat while I "do" this. And this has made me wonder how many times I've felt this way - but "colored" it negatively, by calling it anxeity... apprehension... and how that's led down an old, boring path of cyclic emotions... tension, irritation, resentment... etc.

I guess it could be scary to question something so primal, so direct in our experience of being sentient beings... because it sounds like questioning the basis of "reality" - but I don't really feel that way. I'm very, very curious though!! I kinda feel like I've accidentally stumbled onto the faint trace of a path that leads out of the dark, scary woods of projection, gaslighting, and being so dominated by my mother and her emotional restriction. Rays of light, fresher air, and a big sense of space - and possibility... are starting to filter in through the trees, you know? The forest being my "abnormal-normal" experience, so programmed/conditioned by negativity...

Lots to see... lots to think about... lots of trying to find or create words.

Izzy:
your example is a great description of how what we think affects what we feel! And what we "think" gets programmed (or shifted into a specific direction) from a lot of different sources: the FOO, the news, what we read, what we ate last night and even how well we care for ourselves. In your case, I'm sure the constant pain is an influence too. (My fingers are crossed that you find total relief very soon!!) This is the bit that's fascinating me, really... maybe it's more accurately called "perception" of emotions.

And I guess, we feel lots of things all day long - in all those different shades, intensities, or wavelength frequencies - but we rarely notice all of them in the sum total of all our perceptions. So, apropos "happiness"... perhaps it's not that it doesn't always "exist"... perhaps we subconsciously, unconsciously even... set our emotional "receiver" to other "channels". Or maybe we process, interpret what comes in through perception... with a pre-set definition of value judgement: good/bad... dangerous... scary.... or happy...

I'm a "little" happy, when I see my pair of woodpeckers playing around the feeders. I'm REALLY happy, when my kids tell me that their life is going according to their choices, and that they are succeeding at taking care of themselves. Sometimes, the channels don't come in clearly - there's static or sometimes you can hear more than one channel at a time - overlapping. It's possible - at least for me - to feel multiple feelings all at once... and in varying "shades" or clarity of channel.

It's possible that maybe sometimes the "tuner" get broken or stuck or the knob falls off. And then, there's no changing the channel... but it doesn't mean the channel doesn't exist. And it's also possible to "tune in" a channel by whacking the receiver... moving it nearer something that acts like an antenna... or even just the affects of the atmosphere...

I think. This is just my working hypothesis, so far. Am I missing something obvious? Any debate?

[teartracks]

As to the "anxiety" - that's just the whole point of my question. I'm not convinced that the feeling I had WAS anxiety, due to the lack of apprehension or fear. It was more being excited - in a positive way... of being so full of energy for the tasks at hand that I wanted to keep going and let the normal routines of daily life take a back seat while I "do" this. And this has made me wonder how many times I've felt this way - but "colored" it negatively, by calling it anxeity... apprehension... and how that's led down an old, boring path of cyclic emotions... tension, irritation, resentment... etc.

PR - just a guess but having financial freedom must play a part in it too.

tt

[Izzy_*now*]

Thanks PR,
Yep I suspect thare is an endless string of emotions in play as we make different moves in our day.
This morning I took 3 items from the desk out to the kitchen and was 'pleased' to keep things where they ought to be, took my pills, have some press out ones, and am extra careful that the the foil backing doesn't end up in my mouth (pain), or on the floor (annoyance at trying to pick it up) (feeling sloppy if I were to leave it), watch the kettle of boiling water while making my coffee (imagined pain of it slopping on me and memory of a girl, 40 years ago, wheelchair, whose kettle handle broke off as she passed the kettle over her lap) that leads to a couple of times I did scald myself, and one was with the N, dressed and clothing stuck and when I asked him to drive me to Emergency, he said, "Take a cab" (still in bed) while the other I was alone, in my nightie, and grabbed a bag of ice to apply.

That is just an example of a string of thoughts that take place in a short space of time, bringing back memories of what I might have learned from the past, but perhaps not the same feelings felt at the original happening. I doubt anyone's mind is ever blank, for real, ( well let's not make that an absolute) as I expect there is always a thought taking place. I think that the only truly happy people are outrightly insane, because they don't even know they are unhappy.

Re my pain, right now sitting with my left knee rotated outward, I have only a dull ache in it and am aware of it but am not cursing it. I inwardly curse the pain more when there seems no possible painfree way to put this leg in the middle of the night. That is when I must get up and sit it out. Then at 5:00 this morning, I forgot the brake on one side and as I moved to transfer to the bed, the chair moved backward away from the bed. There was no saving me, so I lowered myself to the floor, not upset though as this is the 3rd time. The other two I misjudged, my hip hit the mattress and knocked me back from my swingover.....but I came up with a solution and that is to push the mattress away from me, from on the floor, and now the height is cut in half. I can use my arms to raise myself to the box spring, the box spring to the chair, pull the mattress back, and try again. I am pleased I figured that out so I know if I miss, I can get out of the mess. Meanwhile there is no fear, as there might be, or let's say embarrassment if I were overweight and became wedged in the tub.

And yes, you have stumbled upon an area that interests me, as I never thought of this before. It is only the phrase "Happy 's just a moment in time" that I wrote into one of my songs, that came back to me when I read your post.

tt
I can relate to lying awake going over a conversation that will take place tomorrow, and is ALWAYS  never as I am mulling
in my mind...
...and I can tell you that money does not buy happiness, and not even satisfaction, but it does help pay the bills. We are who we are and I expect everyone goes through a range of different feelings, thoughts, memories, every day without noticing, except if they are one of us, and even then, I doubt we identify every feeling.

Right now I feel 'excitement' as my maibox has rung twice.

All the best, both
Izzy

Edit--hope it doesn't go through twice--had an error!

[sKePTiKal]

You'd think money would solve a lot of anxiety or other "bad" feeling, wouldn't you tt? I know I used to think so. I don't find what some people say - that money brings with it a whole new load of problems to be totally true, either.

My programming goes so deep, that I still struggle with spending money on myself. As though, by doing so, I'm depriving someone else - someone more deserving, you know? That feeling is programming; pure & simple. It doesn't have any basis in reality nor does it take into consideration my donations and how well compensated my employees are. I don't let that feeling - or the thoughts that go with it - hang around.

I do get to "choose" the frequency I'm tuned into - though that still takes a lot of remembering, reminders, and mental presence. I'm not helpless in the face of the old programming; the cyclic feeling patterns that spiral down, down, down... or send me quickly  into an unsatisfiable rage. But I gotta remember that I can choose....

maybe it's just "time spent" in my chosen emotions... that's slowly revealed all the variations and subtleties and made me realize just how horrible I felt when I did believe I was helpless in the face of my emotions; that there was no such thing as happiness... when I was still under the "spell" of the programming I grew up with.