Do N's realize the harm they have done ever? Maybe this will help...

[Anastasia]

For years, like everyone else on this board, I wondered if my Nmother realized how cruelly I was treated by her and my step-father with all the belittling and put-downs--not to mention the physical abuse where he broke my nose and gashed me in the face with a flashlight.  And then there was the sexual abuse with him peeking in my windows all the time.  I was always so freaked out that I had a mother who allowed this to happen that I could never figure out if she really was aware how painful this was for me. 
I used to wonder if she cared at all?  Did she not see what was happening I wondered as she never made any comments of empathy to me.  Did she not understand how harsh they were to me?  Did she not realize what lousy parents they were? 
Now that I have been near her for 5 years--and she has aged to the point that she has lost that ability to think in such a pattern that she can cover her tracks, which is why old people become blunt and direct--I have finally realized that, yes, she did know how abusive and cruel she and he were to me.  Why do I say this?  Because when a conversation happens concerning some cruelty either she did or he did to me (say, when he broke my nose or some of the belittling comments she made to me on a daily basis are repeated to her) she hides her face and gets very quiet.  She just withdraws into herself.  She is aware for sure. 
So, now I have the answer:  she knew how cruel they were.  So, she participated in abusive behavior and also condoned it from her husband towards me. 
This is very interesting to me because for years I would mention different instances where I was treated unfairly, and she would tell me how wonderful they were to me (huh?) and how wonderful my stepfather was and what a good mother she was.  I knew this was untrue, but wasn't sure why she was saying that as she surely knew what the reality was. 
The only conclusion for me to come to is that she realized how cruel they were to me, and she was plain and simply lying to get herself off the hook and trying to convince me that my lying eyes weren't telling me the truth.   
And the other conclusion I have come to is that she didn't care about me, which is the exact thing my mother's mother (my Grandmother) and my uncle, her brother, told me when I was about 12.  How right they were.

[nolongeraslave]

We will never  know, because N's won't admit their true intentions. It's all about presenting themselves well on the outside. I believed my Narcissistic mom when she would preach to others about her kids are everything.  When I paid attention to her actions though...she had "Be my slave, or I will kill you" written all over her.

I'm sorry you had to endure all of that, and it sucks not knowing if our parents were conscious of what they did or if it was unconscious.

[Anastasia]

"It's all about presenting themselves well on the outside" is a total understatement.   

[Ami]

Dear Anastasia
 I think that I have been in actual shock since 14 and prior to that going in to shock. I am just seeing how eveil my M is. I can't even eat it feels so gross and disgusting to face.
 My M wanted to destroy me. She wanted to hurt me.
 I really can't fathom it all but am seeing a little. As I see it, I see myself as more real.
 It is really, really hard. My heart and love goes out to you !                     xxxoo   Ami

[Anastasia]

Yeah, I get you totally.  I realize that Nmom was insanely jealous due to her insecurity over every woman--and I got to be the special victim.
I'm old now and have really examined this dysfunctional parent thing for a long time.  I've made peace with it and have lost, frankly, my anger and fight.  It's odd, but I have come to a place where I feel:  I know it happened.  I know why it happened.  I know it was unfair.  But I have accepted what happened and no longer worry about it or mull it over.  It happened.  It's done.  I have moved on to better and more interesting subjects.  And I'm NOW in a good place about it as I just stopped thinking about it awhile ago.  Finally free...................................

[Ami]

I want to be where you are!!!!!!                                   xxoo  Ami

[bearwithme]

I want to be where you are!!!!!!                                   xxoo  Ami

Me too!!   This is my goal.

[nolongeraslave]

If I trust my gut, I think I do know that my mom purposely wanted to hurt me. A part of her hates her kids, even though she won't admit it.

I have no proof, b/c she will sugar coat things. All of this material says N's are unconscious of what they do..maybe that's true for SOME of the things they do, but not all of it. They have to know what tortures us, so they can control us.

Sick people.  The day my NM dies is the day how people felt when mary antoinette got beheaded. Sorry.

[Hopalong]

I think my Nmom wanted to primitively stamp me out.

But I think she couldn't help it.

And after looooooooooong years, I forgive her.

And I can love her memory.

I can see her trying. I know she tried. I know she had damage and genes and horrors that made her do this animal thing.

I know she wasn't capable of loving me like Mother Mary. She was just a confused little girl with a really sick father, raised in dire poverty, grasping for dignity and control and a better life. She got one.

She didn't OVERALL mean to hurt me. At some times, she did...

But I also heard her saying her prayers, when she was an old woman...I'd hear her as I went down the hall, I'd realize she was still just a very confused child.

She was accountable, but I don't blame her any more. I think they're different.

It's a release to let her go. Poor woman lived 98 years, and her last 14 months were more than enough punishment. I don't want to punish her, or her memory, any more.

She baked bread. She made clothes. She strove and tried and was brittle.

More to the point, she was of a generation and background that never, ever, would have considered therapy or counseling or dishonoring thy father permissible.

I am the lucky one. I grew up in a time when the world of the inner self opened up, and we were given tools to heal our hurts, and understand our pain...

She wasn't a sadist. She just turned out an N. Poor thing.

(I can also forgive her because she was nowhere nearly as bad as some of the cruel and sadistic Nmothers there are...so I'm not suggesting it for anyone else.)

love,
Hops

[Anastasia]

If the computer had been around 40 years ago, I would have been able to get this done faster.  To think that I'm 65 and finally understand it all. 
Of course, if I had stayed close by--I lived far away from them all those 40 years--I would have gotten to the bottom of this faster, but I didn't so it too my coming here and talking alot.
You younger generation are so lucky to be in an age where computers and help is so much more available to you.  Take advantage of all your resources.

Please understand that I was so far away for so long it enabled me to repress my experiences.  In fact, I had to repress them in order to get on with my life.  Repression was a good coping skill during those years for me.  Fortunately, coming here brought back so many bad memories and, of course, she got right back into the belittling and putting me down and insults again; so, issues came to the forefront and alot of memories came back quickly which I started working thru right away.  I've had plenty of time these past 5 years to work on them.  I did and I feel I'm done.

Once my duties are done here, I will plan to never revisit all the horrible memories from my life again as there is really no reason to.  I've done the work.  And I've gotten the answers I needed.

[Portia]

I love the strength and conviction coming from you Anastasia. Does mine realise the harm? No, never will do (harm to me or anyone else). For that to happen, she'd have to realise that other people are separate entities who do not react and feel as she does. Impossible. If she felt that, she'd lose her mind. Could she lose her mind and survive? I very much doubt that.

[Anastasia]

Portia, my computer crashed and it's taken almost 3 days to fix it with Dell customer service.  Not their fault as the weekend when it crashed was super busy and you couldn't even get thru.  Sorry for the slow response, but that was it.
Regardless, there is hope for ACN children.  I hate to say that if I--with a classic Nmother--could figure this out and come out of the hole we all can.  But I put alot of work into it the past 5-6 years I have been here trying to dig to the bottom of all these questions.  It helps tremendously that my Nmother has grown old and has lost the ability to lie more or less, too.  She dropped clues without realizing it, and I just slowly put it together.

***It isn't that my Nmother didn't realize the harm she did, she didn't care about the harm she did because it was all about her, her, her and her needs.  I came into the equation only when it was something I did that would reflect poorly or positively on her.  Otherwise, I was an unimportant entity.
Sadly or humorously enough (depending on how you look at it), my biological father I wasn't raised with was also a total Narcissist.  How the heck do two Narcissists get together anyway?  Or as I put it, "They were so in love:  him with him, her with her." 

[Anastasia]

I think if any of us ACN children are waiting for the Nparent to fall on their knees and apologize for their behavior or to stop and say, "say, I realize how much I have hurt you and I'm sorry," well, it might be a cold day in hell before that happens.  Again, to paraphrase Portia, they just are too self-involved and narcissistic to realize anyone else has needs but them.  And it is so all about the "show" to the outside world (who thinks my Nmother is so "sweet"). 
Eventually when you see thru their "game," you will find some of their actions actually amusing.  Trust me...you will. 

[Sealynx]

I think the empathy thing makes it hard to judge them. A better question than do they understand cruelty might be what does cruelty feel like to them and how long do they feel its effects?

Empathy is what makes us feel bad for the things we do. We don't insult someone because we have been hurt by insults and don't want to pass that bad feeling along. We sometimes set out to hurt people who have hurt us but this requires empathy as well. So I would say that the ability to intentionally inflict damage on someone has to be based on a knowledge of what that feels like.  So I would ask, "What do they feel?"

What always amazes me about N's is their ability to let go of a feeling the minute it is in their best interest to do so. I always use the example of my mother being able to pick up an incoming call from someone she likes during a heated argument  and completely change her mood and voice. While I would stew for weeks over what was said, her "suffering" ends with the phone call and if it is an invitation she is likely to hang up and talk about what she was going to do as if that was more important than anything that was being said prior to the call.

This suggests to me that N's don't really have persistent emotions like we do. If she only feels the pain of our argument until something new comes into her life to distract her, then she probably doesn't understand why I can't do the same and therefore can't fully know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of her behavior.
S

[Lucky]

What always amazes me about N's is their ability to let go of a feeling the minute it is in their best interest to do so. I always use the example of my mother being able to pick up an incoming call from someone she likes during a heated argument  and completely change her mood and voice. While I would stew for weeks over what was said, her "suffering" ends with the phone call and if it is an invitation she is likely to hang up and talk about what she was going to do as if that was more important than anything that was being said prior to the call.

This suggests to me that N's don't really have persistent emotions like we do. If she only feels the pain of our argument until something new comes into her life to distract her, then she probably doesn't understand why I can't do the same and therefore can't fully know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of her behavior.
S

Their only persistent emotion seems to be their hatred for us.