Mothering Again...

[seastorm]

Thank you for your posts. It is so easy to say,"Why didn't she just walk away?"  Well, it just is not that easy. There is so much wreakage to deal with. Much of it is not in our control. No matter how much I would like to be there for my daughter when she was five and left with her dad, I cant undo it. A lot of what she feels continues to be non-verbal and she cant just lay it out for me to understand in an orderly fashion. Instead, it is sudden moods of anger and vengeful behaviour. Finally, I learned that letting her go and express these messy emotions did have an end. The healing started to happen when I stopped acting defensively. I asked her to tell me about what life was like for her. And then I would say, "anything else?" And she poured out things and events that were so hard to hear.
Of course I was absent during my abusive marriage. Of course I was absent after horrible chaos carnivals with my mother and sister. She was the innocent and vulnerable witness to it all. I was in huge denial about the impact of all this on my daughter. Naively and ignorantly I believed that children are resilient. They aren't. I could not bear the rage that would erupt out of her from time to time and actually preferred her numbed out, compliant self. Finally, she cut me out of her life and acted like I was a monster. This was horribly painful and incomprehensible to me. I did not understand her side of the story. Neither of us are monsters.
I had to admit that because I was consumed with these screwed up relationships with my mother and my husbands, I had failed to be present, alive, responsible , proactive with my daughter. This cuts like a knife. I tried to be wonder mom but I was faking it and she knew.
Accepting her for who she is and with the feelings that she has helped me get past the banishment. She slowly let out her pain and I held on for dear life.  How hard it is to love someone who is in pain and attacking. But I am accountable, even if I was doing the best I knew how.  I was a victim and I was trapped like a spider in a web. This is not the best stance for parenting. We went through the nightmares together. We talk about them bit by bit. There is no roadmap.  All I know is that she calls me twice a week and we talk and laugh and she shares pretty much her whole life with me now.  Slowly, she is beginning to trust me not to get hooked up with another narcissist. It was very lonely for her when I did..

She is coming for Christmas with her husband. He acts like he has heard the stories of the dark side of her life with me. I am tired of bridge buiding but it takes a long time to rebuild trust.

This is just my story. It is different for everybody. No judgement.

Love,
Sea storm

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, I'm sorry I ran off like that - my life doesn't have many slow times right now and I was without the 'net for a few days also.

This may come as a total non-sequitor (especially after CBs brilliant story of moms & daughters) - but I still feel like it might connect a few dots for you...

one way I learned to "cope", in the Twiggy-era, was to become hard as nails - strong as ox - able to take a licking and keep on ticking... "I don't care" and "I don't NEED you (or any help) or __________" ... was my battle cry. I learned to pre-empt all possibility of being hurt further - by rejecting first.

I'm only beginning to realize that it's because I'm sensitive, easily hurt (or moved empathetically), and maybe even "delicate" in some ways (tho this would make everyone who knows me well laugh till they peed themselves)... and that it was the fear of revealing this to the one(s) who could (or did) hurt me the most... that KEPT me STUCK there.

Illusion. Samsara. Not reality.... and it causes problems NOW that repeat the old echoes of the past, when I slip into that. It's very very very difficult to even see this the first time and get that A-ha in my head... and harder still to be aware enough of it when it sneaks in, as I go about my day/life. The only way I have right now, is to remember that I am a marshmallow... and that's OK... and it doesn't necessarily follow logically, that being a marshmallow means I'll be squashed, abused, and hurt so deeply. I don't need my tough girl armor anymore to protect myself.

Try reminding your D, that she doesn't either....

[Hopalong]

Sea Storm,

Thank you for sharing this. You emit forgiveness in both directions. I am so glad for your examples.

What confuses me is when to NOT say "What else?" because it might be an invitation to more abuse. But in the counseling sessions, I will hear her, because her cruelty is somewhat mitigated by the presence of a third party.

Thank you again so much. I am going to keep saying this to myself when I'm around her, "What else?" It also helps to remember that I'm not a monster even though I did fail her.

PR, thanks...I know she's brittle and breakable. Just 2 days before she went Mr. Hyde and began attacking me, she'd literally wept in my arms about the boyfriend, she felt so broken. I think there's a connection. Being comforted by me made her shaky boundaries just dissolve. She doesn't have a clear sense of self, so even though I offer love, she reacts as though it's Kryptonite.

Yesterday she said to the T, I just want to get out of here and never look back. The T said all she could see coming from D was hostility and punishment. I would say heartfelt, loving things and my D would just keep going, here's what ELSE I blame you for. Feels like facing a tsunami with a teaspoon. But she agreed to one more appointment, so I'm very grateful for that.

I'm okay in the daytime, but at night, my chest hurts. Heartbreak is so physical.

love,
Hops

[teartracks]

Dear Hops,

I'm okay in the daytime, but at night, my chest hurts. Heartbreak is so physical.

My prayer for you is that the tears and the pain you feel now will return in joy.

Love,
tt

[lighter]

((((Hops and dd)))))

My prayers go out to you both.

Mo2

[Hopalong]

I've been avoiding updating this thread, and can't at length because I am supposed to be writing a piece that deadlines tomorrow...but it will help to say a little. I want to check out whether I'm just stuck in self-pity.

The overt aggression and hostility from my D has lowered a lot. What remains seems to be an effort to damage me that she acts out in passive ways. The theme is the same (I hate being here, I hate living with you, and you are the source of everything wrong with my life). But behaviors are:

--I ask her to vacuum, so I can then mop. (I can do the one, but not the both, because of my back.) I leave a polite note. Twice. She ignores it. So...she just...won't.
--She dirties a big blender thingie (VitaMix) and leaves it dirty. For days. When she came I said that because we share the kitchen with our tenants, that's one important rule: leave the shared kitchen immaculate. So, I leave her a note. I fill it with soapy water. I leave another note: Please clean it now. She ignores it. So I did it. (The message I get? You say the sky is blue, I say F*** you.)

Those are minor. She does grocery shop because that's when she gets cash from me. And occasionally cooks something.

The major one: I set her up with a friend, who offered to create a real, temporary (5-6 month) FT job for her. Exactly the kind of thing she CAN do (and originally told me she wanted--a data entry kind of thing). His company is walking distance from our house. (She uses my car--just tells me, I'm taking you to work because I want the car today.) He arranged the interview. Afterward, she emailed me: I interviewed there so now you can get off my back about it. He emailed me: We were quite confused because while she was very intelligent and polite and we are ready to offer her the job, she told us: I'm not sure I want this job. (Out of pure kindness--and his concern for me--they offered her a week to decide.) I believe she's turned it down. He wrote me again and I told him I just had to stay out of it, thanked him, and told him I hoped she'd make the right choice.

I was so stunned--very angry. Because she's so venomous about wanting nothing to do with me or anything I "network" for her, I can't let her know that the CEO wrote me and told me what she said. I haven't said a word to her about it. So, I know what she did, she doesn't know I know, and she just emailed me that she needs more money for cat food. She is doing the occasional focus group (she didn't tell me this, but told my tenant's wife. She tells me nothing about anything she does, just--I have an appointment so I'm taking the car.) So, she's earning a little bit here and there. And keeps it secret. I do know she's had a few days substitute teaching (I drop her off) and one cat-sitting job with a friend of mine (whom she criticized nonstop).

Given that I'm struggling so hard financially, knowing that she intentionally sabotaged a job interview and refused to take an opportunity that WOULD allow her to: help me with expenses, save herself, and do exactly what she claims she WANTS (get enough money to leave) -- I felt betrayed. Used.

It really has been the biggest shock. Gennulman, my friend who spent 2 hours listening to her once early after she arrived, when she told him she didn't want a job here because that would "trap" her here (this makes no sense, as I've told her I can't afford to move her back to S. Fla.)...he believes that there's a dark punitive current, that she wants to harm me. Not just... not cooperate, but actually harm me.

I have come to think so too in my worst moments. So...more boundaries. Lots of agnostic praying. And...still, I remember what CB said, that this may change in time.

Her father wrote me a beautiful letter once years after our divorce, apologizing to both her and me--for quitting our last-ditch marriage counseling--telling me he saw how his absolutism and negativity had doomed our marriage. (I wrote him back total love and forgiveness.) I told her I had a letter from him that I really believed would help us, and she refused to read it.

The thing I originally this morning thought I would write on the board was just this:

I am at times so hurt and sad about this. The other night, I conjured up Nmother...and realized again, in spite of her pervasive (non-abusive, or at least never "overt" abusive) N-ness, there was a little clean piece in my mother that did love me. And that night I just cried over how much I missed having a mother. Because...even NMom, if I wept with her over how hurt I am over my D's hatred of me, she would be sad for me.

That, is true. And perhaps, it means more than I know, in my life story. (A lot of which is about forgiving Ns, finding some compassion for them somewhere deep--and thus healing myself because I too and do and certainly have N traits.)

Sorry. This really DOES sound like self-pity to me. Call me on it.

Uggghh.

love,
Hops
PS--She quit our family counseling. Told me we have to do things "without a professional present". Hence, her idea that we have a set time once a week where she talks and I just listen. This last Friday evening was to be the first, she wanted to skip it. I offered again yesterday, not the right time. I offered today from 5-7 (have a meeting at 7) and she said, I don't want to "schedule it", I just want do do it. I wrote her back that I have a deadline so it really needs to be at 5:00. She's still in bed, sleeps until 4:00. (I know she's depressed, worse than depressed. She is self-destructing and I can't help her.)

[Gaining Strength]

Hops - about the self-pity aspect.  I see some self-pity but I don't see that in a pejorative sense.  I see a person who deserves to have some solace and noone there to offer it.  I find that your turning to the image of your mother makes perfect sense.  The profound unkindnesses you are receiving from your daughter, even as you extend a hand of kindness and nurture does deserve solace.  So self solace seems to me to be a healthy and healing thing.

This may be an odd response, but do you ever watch Intervention in A&E on Monday evenings?  (It might be available on Hulu.)  I bring this up because your daughter's behavior and your response reminds me of the loops that families with adult addict children often get into.

There is no easy answer but perhaps you could turn to someone in the 12 step community to help you find your way out of co-dependance.  Though I understand how you are loath to give her ultimatums - none-the-less are you sure that you are willing to go down with her self-sabotage?

My heart and concern are with you now. - GS

[Izzy_*now*]

Dear Hops,

I am so sorry that this is ongoing in your life. My first reaction of what to say is to put her out to fend for herself, but that sounds so cruel to one’s own flesh and blood. Her attitude reminds me of my daughter when she was an adolescent and teen at home, who would never, never clean her room or make her bed, but she assisted with other chores. I gave up and just closed her door. She married against my wishes and remained on her  N-husband’s side when he kicked me out of their lives, and  I was always the reason her life was so messed up. We had no contact for over 6 months , and a weight was lifted for me, until this past January when she wrote saying she is gay.  I believe the latter was something that might have confused her in her young life, and caused a wall between us, yet she was unable to speak of it. I feel tnderness for her in this, and once again feel that we can exchange emails, but not to the extent of before.

My sister is arriving here next month and being face to face alone for the first time in eons, only God knows what will be talked about, so I have once more asked my daughter, by email now, who I ‘out’ her to, that shows my support and acceptance of her  sexual orientation.  This sister has a daughter, once married, they had a son, divorced and she has been on her own for some time. Her being alone came up in emails and the answer was she ‘had somebody’ but he was a married man so no one would be meeting him. That raised questions in my mind about my niece, and it also shows that, whatever, my sister and I have no say over what these 2 daughters do, as they are 45 and 46 this year. I just hope my daughter lets me know, so I don’t have to fudge face to face---too difficult for me, and I have already promised that I will abide by her wishes. (Perhaps I could also say she has a married man and no one will be meeting him?)

I sense a trend today for daughters to have had bad mothering., whether in fact or fiction I hear of so many N mothers on this board, your mention of some N-ism in yourself….well we all have that , need that to a healthy degree.  (Right now I am all me, me, me still in pain, and one year comes on the 27th. Backaches, kidney aches, spinal pulls and pains, neck pains, tics, tremors and shakes in the head and shoulders, all that come from either a chill, the pain my  broken and ‘mangled’ left leg  and my spine (to cause a new pain in my right leg.)

I have a wonderful therapist, 40, who has an N-mother she hasn’t seen for 18 years, plus her husband has N-parents with whom they both must deal, so we have become great confidantes.  My home care gal is living with an alcoholic. What is happening to everyone?  I value my solitude to ‘suffer in silence’ yet my life is overrun with caregivers, appointments and my lawyer. (I’ve been told I have to do my own shopping. My life is ‘run’ by the rep for the driver’s Insurance Co.)

Can you imagine yourself playing the tough love card, and kicking her out? Do you think she is N-istic, thinking only of herself? It puts me in mind of the N I lived with here for 4 years who was always leaving a mess for me to clean, except for the time he trashed the house, and I just left it for anyone to see--he cleaned it! He was always leaving things strewn about to hinder my moving around, so I would move them all to the top of the stairs down to his shop. He just jumped over it all, until the pile became too high and his customers could see it , when coming in the door. This would drive him into rages.

This is rather lengthy with no solution, as you have tenants, except that your life might run more smoothly without her there. What are the ramifications of that?

I do wish you well in dealing with this, because I believe you are hurting now -- and you might have to choose the reason you hurt!

My best
Izzy

[gjazz]

Hi Hops--it's been a long time since I've been on the board, but I just came on and happened on this thread.

I don't see self-pity, I see deep sadness and desperation.  I can only add this: your daughter is acting like I once felt like acting.  I did SOME of what you mention here, though I would never have spoken to my mother the way your D spoke to you.  I certainly ignored my part of chores and was dismissive and hurtful, even when my mother did what you have done: offered me a place to live so I could get myself back on track.  I took advantage.  I was disrespectful at times.  I drank too much and criticized her friends and her choices.  Was it depression?  Absolutely.  Does that forgive it?  No.  Here's what I wonder: your daughter may be treating you this way because lashing out is kind of the emotional equivalent of taking a painkiller.  It helps relieve the rage and frustration for a very short period of time, and when that relief passes the abuser feels even worse, so they lash out even more.  It becomes a downward spiral.  She MAY be lashing out at you because you have proven to her that you will not leave her.  Not many people would take it.  You will forgive.  And she's addicted to her rage.  Here's the thing, though: blaming someone else for her problems cannot do anything BUT make her feel more trapped, more hopeless, because if she isn't causing the problems in her life, she cannot take the steps to change them.  She must take responsibility for her life.  You cannot do that for her.   She's 29 years old, and she is a bully.  In the end, bullies act out of fear.  If she stops blaming you, there'll be nowhere to look except in the mirror, but once she starts doing that, she'll be able to move forward.  I know this because I was there once.  And Hops--my mom and I are now best friends. 

[HeartofPilgrimage]

Hops,

If it helps any, Ijavascript:void(0); feel sad for you. My eyes filled with tears as you wrote about the "little clean piece" of your Nmom that would have felt sad for the way your daughter is acting.

My sons are acting up too. One is 22 and going through a nasty divorce and custody battle; the other is 19 and has his own woes that he thinks are life-shaking. I have been the burden-bearer in the last few months, and neither one of them seems to care or feel any need to give anything back. My daughter has severe emotional and behavioral problems, and takes out her bile on me too. The only one that I feel like I have a decent relationship with is the youngest son --- and he's only 12, who knows what will happen to screw that up too. OK, that was just a bitter and unnecessary sentiment to express, I admit it.

I hope that this generation coming up develops some sense and empathy --- but the truth is, no matter how much we forgive them, they can't undo the things they've done. The relationship will always carry the memory of past hurts ... regained trust is not quite like trust in the beginning. In a way that's good --- we all mess up, and we all carry on and make lives out of what is left. There is a good lesson that mistakes and screw-ups don't have to ruin our lives. But there also is a sad side to it ... that once a deed is done, or word is said, you can't recall it.

[teartracks]

Dear ((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))

I have a lump of sadness in my heart for all the hurt you are carrying on account of and for your daughter.   

Suffering hurts from someone you love deeply is a double hurt and almost unbearable except you don't dare not bear up if only just for them.

I'm so very sorry, Hops...

tt

[Hopalong]

Thanks, GS...I will read more CoDA material and may look for some CoDA folks, too. That's a good idea. Thank you. And for the solace, this recognition. There was a little bit of mother in my mother, more than I credit her for. She would feel such sorrow for what is broken here. Even though so much was passed down through her -- she did not mean it. She didn't know what she was doing.

Izz, so far, I can't imagine putting my D out. She is suffering terribly and I don't think she really can fully fend for herself. I don't look to end our relationship, God no, I just don't know what to do. She did say she'd go to another counselor with me...just not the one we were seeing. So I'll ask my T for a referral and pray that helps. (I am stunned by what you have endured, and awed by the kindness you hold for your own child who abandoned you.)

Gjazz, your perception is acute and your last words I will hang onto. The bully part worries me worse than the crisis now...but I can't cure anything. I can only hold on and try to have faith it will get better.

Pilgrim, I know. The bile. It's stunningly painful. It's as though she is demanding I sit in a chair and allow her to pour a hot kettle of hatred over my head and I must sit, listen, not interrupt, and let it rip. When we first discussed having these 2-hour sessions on our own together, she was being gentler, and I was in a very compassionate mode, and said I would do that, I would just listen. I interrupted only a few times tonight, a few defensive blurts...but she started by having me sit at her computer and read a letter so full of hatred, twisting, indictment, blame and endless...blame...that it sucked all the hope out of me that these "talks" could help.

But she does agree to more counseling. So I will hope that helps. Otherwise, I have to keep my boundaries up.

I just can't believe she turned down the job that was offered her -- she wants me to take the blame, and carry the whole financial weight -- of getting her out of here. It just might sink me if I do, but having her stay, might too.

I do have a very good counselor, and I'll lean on his advice.

And all of yours. Thank you so much for it

With a grateful heart,

Hops

[Gaining Strength]

Thinking of you Hops. Thought about you quite a bit on my long drive home from the beach today. 

I love what gjazz wrote.  I can remember being much like that - so angry - sabotaging and self-sabotaging without realization out of such deep anger - an odd type of entitlement and anger all bundled up together.  No one could have led me out of it - only my need to get help.  Will continue to think of you both.

[CB123]

Hi Hops

I am just back from the wedding and I want to write some at length...

Love you.  There is so much going on in both of you...it feels absolutely ugly and, I am sure hopeless at times, but there is a lot incubating below the surface.  You are on the verge of this resolving.  You just dont see it.

Let me get my ducks in a row and I will be back....No you are not being self pitying.  You deserve a good cry before you pull up your big girl panties and roll....

You are good, good, good. 

Love
CB

[Hopalong]

Thanks, GS and CB...

your thoughts are getting here!

hugs
Hops