Reactions (or lack thereof) of other family members to Ns

[JustKathy]

Sealynx recently made a good observation in another thread, saying that other family members may realize that something is "off" with the N in the family, but will opt to take the easy way out (side with the N) rather than have the N turn on them.

This was interesting to me because I have an Aunt, my NM's sister, who has always known that something was very wrong, but basically decided to remain completely neutral. She would occasionally make generic statements about M "having her moments," but it never went beyond that. I always wondered how much she really knew, and how she really felt about M's mistreatment of me.

Well, something interesting just happened. Some of you know that my NM has terminal cancer. She was diagnosed back in June, and given a month to live, 6 months maximum. Technically she should be dead, yet she's apparently doing quite well, and is sitting around spending her time trying to guilt everyone into giving her non-stop attention.

Anyway, M's sister, the Aunt I referred to above, has a 49-year-old son who went missing about five years ago (he apparently got fed up with the all the family drama and took off). A few weeks ago, that son (my cousin) not only resurfaced, but announced that he's getting married. I emailed him, filled him in on some things, and told him that I'm NC with my mother. Also that I've been kept pretty much in the dark when it comes to both my sister's battle with breast cancer and M's cancer. This was his reply:

"As I understand it, your sister lost both her breasts due to cancer, then had surgery to have 'replacements' implanted, but that an infection occurred and she had to go back to for additional surgeries.  She's not doing very well. As for your Mom, I don't know as much, but it seems like she has been a bit of a 'drama queen' (surprise!) based on what my Mom has said...."

WHOA! Snap! I just about fell off my chair. Nothing said about M's cancer, only that she's behaving like a "drama queen?" Wow. My Aunt has always been very diplomatic, and very careful with her choice of words. For the first time in my life I feel that I'm not the only one - that my Aunt DOES know, and DOES see it, and in fact, seems pretty annoyed with it.

This is what I suspect may be going on. I think my cousin's sudden appearance, doubled with the news of his wedding, has taken the attention away from my mother, the dying queen. M has always hated my cousin, so I can visualize her stamping her feet and steaming "how DARE he steal my spotlight." Obviously her behavior must be pretty bad for my Aunt to comment that her terminally ill sister is a drama queen.

Which also makes me wonder about this terminal illness my NM has. She seems to be doing awfully well for someone who should have died months ago. I'm beginning to wonder if things haven't been exaggerated for the sake of gaining attention.

Sorry this is so long. I just thought I'd pass that along, as it was a huge light bulb moment. I now realize that yes, my Aunt DID know, and yes, was taking the safe road. All this time I thought that my Aunt was siding with M. Based on some other things that my cousin said to me, it now appears NOT to be the case. She was just playing along, so as not to incur the wrath of M.

[HeartofPilgrimage]

I sympathize with your aunt because maybe she didn't know what the heck to do. If she knew that your mother was not right, she might not have known what was wrong, and she might have thought she was making it easier on you to "not rock the boat." If she didn't think there was anything she could do to get you out of the situation, maybe she thought it best not to rile your mom up.

Of course, I don't know what specific things you are thinking of ... it's just when someone is irrational like an N, it can be confusing to know what to do.

[JustKathy]

I don't think my aunt had any idea what was wrong with my mother, clinically speaking. She had told me that M had been a problem child growing up, had "moments," and general things like that, but few people know what NPD is unless they've sought the help of a professional.

My aunt definitely knew that M was mistreating me, especially when I was a teen. She did what she could to help me, but definitely didn't want to rock the boat. For example, my mother held a family boycott of my high school graduation because she was mad at me for some petty thing. My aunt made the drive from San Diego to L.A., met me at work, and brought me a graduation gift. I think you're absolutely right that she didn't know what to do, so she looked out for me in her own way, without making waves.

I never knew what she really thought of M - if she were just a little "off," or had a genuine mental illness. It now looks like she may have suspected something more serious,  but kept it inside. I can't say that I blame her. She only saw bits and pieces of what my mother did to me. Without the full story, there's no way to know, or to even guess at a diagnosis.

Kathy

[Twoapenny]

Hi Kathy,

My whole family adopt a very head in the sand, don't rock the boat, don't cause any trouble kind of approach to every situation, not just to my mum.  I sometimes wonder how many generations ignored abuse and what sort of effect that has had on family members, in different ways?

Even my mum, who I consider to have NPD (she's never sought help so have no idea if a doctor would diagnose her with it or not) completely blanked out any kind of problem for as long as I can remember.  Throughout my life I've had to deal with my problems on my own because she just couldn't cope with reality.  Her fantasy world got bigger and stronger over the years and I think it competely pushed any kind of reality out altogether.

I think it can be very validating when someone else mentions something that makes you realise they see it to.  It shows you that you're not imagining it, or being oversensitive or that you think everything revolves around you.  I also think it's very scary that your mum may have embelished on her illness to get more attention - my mum has done this as well and I think it's a pretty low trick.  Your cousin sounds like a very straight talking kind of a bloke - it's a shame more people aren't like him!

[BonesMS]

I have this sinking feeling in my stomach that the NWomb-Donor just MIGHT be FAKING her "terminal" illness as a way to GRAB THE SPOTLIGHT AWAY from your sister while your sister is battling her breast cancer.  I have a feeling that the N-Snake would not hesitate to stoop that LOW!   

Now that your cousin is getting married, who knows what other histrionics she is going to pull as the wedding day gets closer.

Bones

[sKePTiKal]

Hi Kathy - how've you been?

I woke up this morning with reminders of how I felt I was going insane, back when my mom was insisting that her fantasy was reality and forcing me to accept it. It truly would've helped if there had been people around me to say conclusively that she was unfit to mother because of her illness. But instead, I sought out what help I could... a neighbor who advocated for me; a friend that I could call early in the morning ('coz mom wasn't up) to just talk current events with and have my feelings, ideas, and thoughts validated; an aunt who told me (though I'd forgotten) that everyone knew my mom "wasn't right" - but no one knew how, why or what could be done about it.

The neighbor tried hardest to "re-educate" my mom... but of course that backfired, as my mom would twist things to her own motivation and purpose, distorting the good things and making even the most basic human caring instincts seem to be irrational, manipulative for some "ulterior motive", or promoting what she called "spineless weakness". It was part of her paranoid world-view that you should never accept compliments or gifts from others because then they'd "have something over you"...

... pot calling kettle black, really - more of her projections...

... and eventually, she even turned me against this neighbor in her attempts to make me "just like her", even as she continued and deepened her relationship with the neighbor - jealous, maybe?

I really think that - in general - we have a NEED to have someone confirm or validate that our Ns are "wrong" or "off" or "ill"... it's a need that doesn't really go away, when the N is a parent. It lessens as we heal, but remains a sensitive area. And this is at a much deeper level than likes/dislikes, cultural fashion or tradition, or the child's tendency to expect parents to be "perfect". The communication of an awareness on the part of other people that the N is an N... or mentally ill... helps us really empathize with ourselves about ourselves and opens the door to being able to a new experience of ourselves - sans the impact of N - when we stop questioning ourselves and begin to accept that there are simple "good things" we can accept from others and give to others - without that fear of repercussions.

Ns just pretend to be humans - and they are very good actors, deceivers. People outside of the FOO don't have enough information or data - the whole story - and are more easily persuaded by the extreme rationalizations and fantasy-constructs of the N's litany of injustices and paranoia. The gaslighting effect, you know? Projecting their own emotions/actions onto others, too. So that they themselves aren't responsible for the mess they've created.

Sorry for rambling; but this touched a current thought-process for me...

[Ami]

Well said, Amber.                                                         Ami

[JustKathy]

I have this sinking feeling in my stomach that the NWomb-Donor just MIGHT be FAKING her "terminal" illness as a way to GRAB THE SPOTLIGHT AWAY from your sister while your sister is battling her breast cancer.

You know Bones, I hate to say it, but the thought has sure crossed my mind. I know that she DOES have cancer, but am beginning to doubt the prognosis. The only reason that I feel certain the cancer is real, is that my father went to the doctor with her, and called to tell me that she was terminal. However, the information that he has given me has changed with every phone call - she has a month to live, she has 6 months, and sometimes, he calls without mentioning it at all. He also downplays my sister's cancer, acting as if it's nothing worse than a common cold.

I do believe that my NM's cancer is inoperable/incurable, but I'm starting to think that she may have years, not months. She acts less like someone who is dying and more like someone who has been given a gift - the ultimate attention grabber. The drama has been unbelievable. And yes, she's probably quite jealous of the attention being paid to my sister, who has had a very difficult battle with breast cancer. My S works for my Aunt, and they are very close, so it stands to reason that my Aunt has great empathy for my sister, and is possibly fed up with M's insistence that it be all about HER.

[JustKathy]

People outside of the FOO don't have enough information or data - the whole story - and are more easily persuaded by the extreme rationalizations and fantasy-constructs of the N's litany of injustices and paranoia

Yes, and that will always be a problem for those of us who are victims. We DO want and need someone to believe us, and validate what has happened to us, but no family member could ever possibly know or understand the complete truth.

My cousin sent me my Aunt's phone number, and said that she would like to talk to me because she "understands." She does understand, but she only understands that I have had some "issues" with my mother. She has no way of knowing about the horrible, vile things that M did to me. Let's face it, some of the things that N parents do are so out there, that therapists often don't believe us. I'll call my Aunt when the holiday dust settles, and I may tell her that M has something called NPD, but I can't even begin to go into 40 years of both emotional and physical abuse. Even if she felt like spending all day listening, I wouldn't feel right doing it. It would only serve to make ME look like a drama queen, and that's the last thing I want - to be just like M.

[Sealynx]

Hi Kathy,
I think we always want to seek that validation, but perhaps the best we can do is to seek out what someone wants to give us and not burdening them with the whole story. Could your aunt become the confidant and mother you never had without having to agree with or even listen to that story?? We here understand and so does your therapist. The rightness or wrongness of a fact is unrelated to how many people believe it.

That graduation situation was enough to let your aunt know that you do not have a loving parent and allow her to show that she doesn't need a record of horrible abuse to show love for you. When your mother does pass over, aunts house might be a great place for you, your cousin, father and sister to spend holidays with a real family. I have a feeling she may invite you.

As for your mother exceeding her expiration date and being upset about your sister getting attention.... When my dad was in the hospital ,critically ill, my mother got tired of him getting all the attention, faked chest pains and got herself checked into a hospital...across town. She then called me constantly to bring her make-up and other items, knowing full well that I was his sole caretaker. I wouldn't put anything past them.

[JustKathy]

Could your aunt become the confidant and mother you never had without having to agree with or even listen to that story??

Yes, definitely. I don't want to burden anyone with the details, though in this case, I don't think I need to. There have been several times in my life when she DID assume the role of mother.

The biggest moment for me (and my entire family), was when I was 21, and my Grandmother held a family reunion back home in Canada. At the time, I was under "the silent treatment," with M refusing to speak to me. She would not allow me to travel to the reunion with my own family, so my aunt paid for my airfare, and I went with her and my cousin. Suffice to say, many distant relatives who came from other states were horribly confused, not knowing who my mother was. Closer relatives, my Grandmother and M's sisters, were outraged. That was the first time that I was told by other relatives that M "wasn't right."

I also spent two summers with my aunt when I was a teen. One summer at her vacation home in Hawaii, and the other at her home in San Diego. I don't know how that came about, or whose idea it was. M just told me, "You're going to your Aunt's house for the summer," and that was that. That *might* have been M's idea, as my aunt is a doctor, and M decided the day I was born that I was going to be a doctor, or was going to marry one. She always sucked up to my aunt, and ordered me to do the same. She carried around this stupid fantasy that my aunt was my ticket into medical school, would give me a job, yada yada. Regardless of the reason, it was sure nice to be away from the abuse for a few months, and live in a normal home.

So anyway, my aunt definitely knows that I wasn't a bad kid, actually quite the opposite. She's also seen some pretty heinous stuff coming from my mother. I mean really, who goes to a family reunion and pretends that her daughter belongs to someone else?

[JustKathy]

When my dad was in the hospital ,critically ill, my mother got tired of him getting all the attention, faked chest pains and got herself checked into a hospital...across town.

You know what's so sad about this? I read it without being the slightest bit shocked, just shaking my head up and down saying, "uh huh, yep." Anyone else would be horrified, but to someone who knows Ns, this is textbook behavior. Such a horrible thing to do to you and your father, yet she probably thought nothing of it.

[Sealynx]

Kathy,
I think that is why it is so hard to talk to anyone who hasn't experienced it. Trying to explain just one thing they do to someone who doesn't "get it" takes more time and energy than its worth.

[Hopalong]

I wish there was a wonderful essay/summary of NPD that goes beyond the DSM-IV criteria but not as far as v achin the usual author, (intentionally misspelled), with anecdotes + half a dozen examples of each criterion, enough different ones (short ones) that a general reader might see a pattern in severe Ns...

Would be so nice to have a "handout" to give other people that explains this personality disorder, as people who have various physical illnesses have access to.

I bet we'd each make 100 copies and always carry one!

Hops

[Sealynx]

Tell them to read Merrel Markoe's book "It's My %##ing Birthday. That book has plenty of examples!