Incest

[Ami]

Dear River
 I am so happy you started this discussion. It is very important and very honest.
 I hear you talking about a moment in time when you shifted . I can relate to that one moment, too. It was when my F whom I idolized and trusted  told me that my M was fine.
 I split in some way then.  I went in to shock .
 I had to think my F was on my side. I could not retain my sanity without it. He showed me that he was not and i could not stay in reality without being numb.
 I was 14 and have lived in a state of  shock ever since.
 I think the way out is Mirroring. You are a blank to yourself. That is the biggest problem, IME.
 *I* could not see myself. That is one reason people have addictions. They want to FEEL. They want to feel real. They want to connect with themselves and another person but it is as if they are walking through split pea soup. It is dense and foggy.
The Bell Jar by Slyvia Plath is my favorite book.
She could not get out from inside the bell jar.
I found a friend who mirrored me. He loved me with a pure kind of love and I started to be able to see myself.
God brought him as I believe God will direct us to healing if we will listen and follow.
I still feel numb and not in touch with my feelings BUT I am a little better, for sure. I wish I could PUSH away the numb and come running out like football players at the beginning of the game. "Here I am. I am not  numb"
That is my dream--beyond all dreams. Thank you so much for your posts (((River))))) x o x o Ami

[river]

Yes, I feel its important too, has a lot of meaning for me. 
It was this moment in time that I first remember, like a flagship moment that helped me to understand the rest. 

  I had to think my F was on my side. I could not retain my sanity without it. He showed me that he was not and i could not stay in reality without being numb.
 I was 14 and have lived in a state of  shock ever since.
 

     
Yes.  This is about betrayal.  Its about a lot of things, but I believe a kind of betrayal is at the root of this, a cause of #'the basic fault' in our foundations.   Betrayal is a kind of moral corruption - isnt it? 

  I found a friend who mirrored me. He loved me with a pure kind of love and I started to be able to see myself.
   

And this comes over clearly how one needs anothe human being or other relationships to believe in, to be real and stand by us, (not betray the principle), in that dark place where we really need to be able to trust. 

And thats such an imagery 'hit the ground running', being clear, and real.   I have had the fog problem.  I also recognise this as an important issue. Its like being caught away from reality, and cant get back in.  But I believe I have needed that vital thing, the healing relationship that could make me real, or able to engage with reality.  Each healing relationship I've engaged in before now has involved a betrayal in some way.   

God brought him as I believe God will direct us to healing if we will listen and follow.
   

   Yes.

[river]

...........And, when you were writing that last post, how real did you feel then?   

        xx0 r.

[Ami]

Dear River
 Are you saying that IF we access our realness, we can become real?In other words, if we act real, we can BECOME real. Thank you.      Ami

[Ami]

Dear River
 I wrote the Blackie/Whitie thread ,in part ,as a way of becoming real.
 I am so blessed with wonderful people coming to to my life. Are you?
 Also, I have stomach problems cuz my stomach FEELS my feelings to keep me safe, I think. Do you know what I am talking about?
       Ami

[ann3]

Sorry to butt into your conversation, but the discussion of betrayal reminded me of an excellent book:
"The Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships" by Patrick J. Carnes.  For me, this book explained a lot.

http://www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Bond-Breaking-Exploitive-Relationships/dp/1558745262

http://www.enotalone.com/article/4291.html
What Trauma Does To People
Excerpted from The Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships
By Patrick J. Carnes

Exploitive relationships can create trauma bonds-chains that link a victim to someone who is dangerous to them. Divorce, employee relations, litigation of any type, incest and child abuse, family and marital systems, domestic violence, hostage negotiations, kidnapping, professional exploitation and religious abuse are all areas of trauma bonding. All these relationship share one thing: they are situations of incredible intensity or importance where there is an exploitation of trust or power.

In The Betrayal Bond Patrick Carnes presents an in-depth study of these relationships, why they form, who is most susceptible, and how they become so powerful. He shows how to recognize when traumatic bonding has occurred and gives a checklist for examining relationships. He then provides steps to safely extricate from these relationships.

[bearwithme]

This is all so interesting.  Ami & River, you delve into so much.  The "numb" factor is complicated and a reality of realness.  Betrayal is almost like it's own entity functioning in places we could never fathom existed but then we were exploited as we were betrayed in that secret place, wherever that place is for each of us.

Ann3: That topic hits close to home for me.  I SEE the connection now!  I have a toxic person in my life and the bond is strong between us only because of this toxicity and I can not shake the relationship loose.  Is this right? 

As I see it, I will forever be a victim to this person because I may, or may not, be facilitating their power over me and so the bond continues and that leaves me wondering why this person won't leave me alone.

Don't know if this makes any sense as to the subject matter or even if it's right on point or not, but it just got me thinking about how this "bond" works and why I feel that a toxic and hurtful person has this POWER over me?????

As for my turning point or "shift" if you will.  I believe that I became real and reality told me that it was reality, when I was hurting so bad that I literally blacked out. I pounded on a wall so hard I bruised my hands and wrists to black and blue. I looked around my bathroom and there were dents in the walls and my teeth chattered for 5 hours while I was at work and I shook like a leaf.  I finally FELT the shock and awe my NM was imposing on me.   

I have a lot more to say about my "shift" in thought but will end here for now.  I hope I understand this correctly and am not off subject. 

Bear

[ann3]

Hi Bear,

"I have a toxic person in my life and the bond is strong between us only because of this toxicity and I can not shake the relationship loose.  Is this right? "

Yes, that's essentially what the books says.  When we go thru trauma with someone else or if someone causes us trauma, we can have a 'trauma bond' with that person.  If someone who was supposed to protect you causes the trauma (or enables it) then you have the trauma + the betrayal, which amounts to the 'betrayal bond' with that person.  It's really hard to break this 'betrayal bond' with that person:  they keep causing us pain, yet, we stay & can't leave:  this is because we bonded to them via trauma & betrayal.

"As I see it, I will forever be a victim to this person because I may, or may not, be facilitating their power over me and so the bond continues and that leaves me wondering why this person won't leave me alone."

Yes, Bear, I see what you're saying, but let me put it like this:  We may facilitate their power over us like a kidnap victim facilitates Stockholm Syndrome.  So once we become conscious that we have become subjected to Stockholm Syndrome or the Betrayal Bond, we can set ourselves free.  So, I don't want to say we are forever a victim because once we see the Stockholm Syndrome or the Betrayal Bond, we can start to change ourselves & set ourselves free.  

I agree with you in that if we remain unconscious of Stockholm Syndrome or the Betrayal Bond, the bond continues & we can't understand why they don't leave us alone.  Perhaps we 'can't understand why they don't leave us alone' because we don't see that WE can leave them & walk away & go 'no contact'. We don't feel/understand that we hold the key to our own jail cell.

(((((((((((((Bear)))))))))))  So sorry for that shock & awe experience

This book really helped me, so hope you read it because it's amazing.  It opened doors & I never felt the same.

xoxo,
ann

[river]

Dear River
 Are you saying that IF we access our realness, we can become real?In other words, if we act real, we can BECOME real. Thank you.      Ami

What I was wondering was that as you wrote, it sounded like a flow.  and I imagined you feeling fully present, with expression, with focus, with motivation   .... ?   

[river]

Anne, Yes I've read that book,  In fact worked thro it.  I found it briliant, he's right about a lot.   tho it gave me understaning, it STILL didnt change me inside.  Thanks for the links.   Reading about and understanding the disorders of the self, that gave me some lift off. 

Sorry to butt into your conversation, but the discussion of betrayal reminded me of an excellent book:
"The Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships" by Patrick J. Carnes.  For me, this book explained a lot.

http://www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Bond-Breaking-Exploitive-Relationships/dp/1558745262

http://www.enotalone.com/article/4291.html

[Ami]

Dear River
 Are you saying that IF we access our realness, we can become real?In other words, if we act real, we can BECOME real. Thank you.      Ami

What I was wondering was that as you wrote, it sounded like a flow.  and I imagined you feeling fully present, with expression, with focus, with motivation   .... ?   

I have many present moments now, River. I feels really good. I am swimming up from a long time underwater.I am so glad you are on the Board !  x o x Ami

[river]

Bear, theres a lot here for me too. 
This is how I understood myself re getting caught in those types of relationships. .  After many years of trying, seeking groups healing etc, I cam home after yet another WE work shop that promised so much, and as i put my key in the door, I realised nothing has changed, later I came to call it an 'emotional anatomy'. 
 Im a humanist, I believe in high ideals about how humans should treat one another.  Yet, this was like a second bone structure inside me, my physical and emotional attraction towards a relationship that was emotianally abusive. 
It was years later, I found the books that described it.  It had a scientific name 'intrapsychic structure'.  I understood that it was in me, but still, not exactly really me. My life involved so much loneliness, the 'self in exile', the other side of the coin.... its described here with a picture....

http://www.selfinexile.com/Characteristics_1.html

As I see it, I will forever be a victim to this person because I may, or may not, be facilitating their power over me and so the bond continues and that leaves me wondering why this person won't leave me alone.
As for my turning point or "shift" if you will.  I believe that I became real and reality told me that it was reality, when I was hurting so bad that I literally blacked out. I pounded on a wall so hard I bruised my hands and wrists to black and blue. I looked around my bathroom and there were dents in the walls and my teeth chattered for 5 hours while I was at work and I shook like a leaf.  I finally FELT the shock and awe my NM was imposing on me.   

Bear