If YOU Don't Like Me---- Do I Still Exist?

[Ami]

I want to talk about  the topic of seeing yourself even if no one else sees you.
: having inherent worth in the face of other's trying to take it from you.
: a stable self which exists independently of the world--to a large extent.
We are social creatures. God made us that way BUT when you can't see yourself, you are a glob of amorphous water  waiting for a container in to which you can fit.
This has to be what co-dependence is.
 I, for one, am tired for being co-dependent.
Maybe some of my soul sisters on here can relate.  ((((((((The Daughters of NM's))))))))      x o x o x Ami

[Nonameanymore]

Hi Ami,

I do relate a lot with what you say.
I don't know exactly how it works but ironically the days that I see myself, others see me too, and it never works the other way around. There have been only a few instances recently but when it happens, it feels good. Unfortunately (and maybe fortunately) it has to do with something good I did, mostly for myself, like I have achieved something and I feel good about it, which means I have to find the place to draw the strength to keep doing valuable and useful things. As I grow older it gets harder and harder to accomplish this. I really I had some insight to offer but I really dont....

P
(I have sent you a personal message re something completely irrelevant)

[Ami]

Just responding means a lot ((((((P)))))
We are NOT gonna figure it our overnight LOL                   Ami

[Ami]

This is another thread about having a fractured self--a deep type of pain. I am hoping that little by little --it is healing!         Ami

[swimmer]

Ami- I think you have a lot of insight into yourself and others.  It is healthy to be in touch with yourself, and self aware.  For myself, I'm terrified of becoming my mother so I'm sometimes afraid of just being myself without thinking....

Swimmer

[Ami]

Ami- I think you have a lot of insight into yourself and others.  It is healthy to be in touch with yourself, and self aware.  For myself, I'm terrified of becoming my mother so I'm sometimes afraid of just being myself without thinking....

Swimmer

   Thank you (((Swimmer)))
   I probably repeat myself over and over cuz I am struggling so hard to heal. I know what you mean about being like your Mother. When I was healthy ,a long time ago, I used to repeat over and over "I am NOT like my Mother".When I could not see that anymore, I got sick, really emotionally sick.
 It is all about differentiating ourselves from them!!!!. I really think that is an important key.   x o x o   Ami

[Logy]

"I am not like my mother."

Ami, the worst thing my daughter has ever said to me is "that sounds like grandma".  It struck me to the core. 

For most of my life I have wanted my mother to like me.  If she didn't approve of me or made negative comments to me, I was crushed to my core.  So I worked hard to make her like me.  But.....when she approved of my comments, my decision, and decided to like me then I didn't like myself.  And when I acted like NM when we were with others (to gain her approval), I could feel the burning disdain of others.  I was in a no win situation.  If NM liked me, no one else did.  If others liked me, NM didn't.

Reading information about daughters of NM's, talking to a gentle therapist who seemed to think I was ok, just as myself, gave me some courage to pay attention to ME.  I found the more attention I paid to ME, the more I didn't care if people liked me. Because I liked myself.  The more I liked myself the more others liked me.  Even NM seems to like me more.  Oh, but I know this is just manipulation from her so I am constantly on guard and analyze every word she says!  She waits for me to say anything that she interprets as encouragement for her behavior and opinions.  And then tries to suck me back into her control.

All the healing I have had to this point has taken over 5 decades.  For 4+ of those I thought I didn't deserve to exist unless everyone approved of me and liked me.  I am far from healed but I feel better.  I can't wait to see how I feel when I'm 90!!!

[Ami]

(((((Logy)))))) Thank you!   x o x o Ami

[Lucky]

I can't wait to see how I feel when I'm 90!!!

  that is exactly what I often think!

[HeartofPilgrimage]

I think I am feeling a bit of what you are describing. With me, it only happens with certain people. If they are not happy with me, especially over key issues that set me off, I have this urge to conform to whatever they want. I had sort of an argument (not really fighting, but disagreeing) with my husband last night, and a bit of his N came out, at least IMO. He has some rigid ideas about values and morality (OK, I do too ... both of us had parents with raging narcissism, mine was just my mom but he had both parents as Ns) and if our oldest son is not "toeing the line" my husband feels personally rejected. One of his issues is bad language. I don't really LIKE bad language but I think my husband focuses on "dirty words" and makes it into a huge moral deal. I think honesty, kindness, etc. is much more important, and that he shouldn't take it personally when my son uses foul language (he really only does it when he is angry, which may not be OK but it's not like he uses foul language in normal everyday conversation).

My husband was shocked and hurt when I said that I didn't think bad language is as big of a deal as he does. He said I was jumping on him because of his standards. He says he thinks he should set his standards "as high as possible" and that he doesn't think it is bad to be very idealistic. I asked him what it must be like to be the eldest son of a father who believes in setting standards as high as possible. Obviously hit a nerve. As recently as 5-6 years ago, he could not bring himself to confront his own father after his dad was rude and mean to me in my own home ... he was his father's eldest son.

Today I am feeling very very tempted to apologize to him, and pacify him because I feel like I am going to become a non-person if he doesn't approve of my values. Yet in my heart I don't think that making every single thing (like dirty words said in anger) something to go to the mat for. If I apologize I will be betraying what I feel in my heart (I didn't mean to criticize him last night, I was just attempting to raise his consciousness about what it must be like to be in our son's situation ... although maybe I did sound critical).

So, I am thankful that I don't feel this way every time I get cross-ways with somebody. Ami, it must be a terrible internal battle if you have such an enormous and overwhelming need to be liked by lots of people ... if I have to feel that fear of annihilation, at least for me it is only with a chosen few people.

I am sitting hear with tears in my eyes as I think about what it must be like to be both my husband and my son. I think possibly that what you are talking about, Ami, the fear of annihilation ... I think my husband's definition of self is so tied to what he sees as important moral values ... that to him, if our son uses bad language (and that's not the only or biggest violation of our values that this son has done in the past couple of years!), he is rejecting his father personally. My husband has actually been very supportive of our son through the pregnancy-out-of-marriage, the "shotgun" wedding, and now the divorce/abandonment by the wife. I don't know if I could have been that supportive if all along I was feeling personally rejected because my son messed up like he has.

I don't mean to hijack this thread, it belongs to you, but I started musing on what you said and that is what came into my mind.

[Ami]

((((HOP))))
 PLEASE hijack the thread. I am fine with threads going where they will.
 You bring up a brilliant point about annihilation.
  For me , the root  is a fractured sense of self which NEEDS outside sources to validate it.
 I think you are dealing with  FOO  issues with your feelings about your son and H. *I* think bad language is not a big deal .
 I think in N families, if you disagree--you are disloyal or the ENEMY.
 I bet that some of this black/white thinking is going on with your H and you, too.
 IF you take your sons' "side"--you are AGAINST your H.
 This just hit me, out of the blue. Usually ,when that happens,it is God giving me a message to give to someone. If it is helpful, I offer it with love. If not, drop it in the circular  --lol       x o x o  Ami

[Logy]

Hop,
I'm not sure you actually need to apologize.  You stated your opinion.  Why do we always feel we have to apologize for our opinions?  (Well, we know why.  Nparents.)

Maybe if you tell your husband that you admire him for his values, and it is a good thing to be idealistic he'll be appreciative.  On the other hand, we all live in an imperfect world.  And every young person needs to search for their own truth.  That involves experimenting with things (bad words is one thing).  But if your husband focuses on his own values and lives the example rather than criticizing different opinions, he might find that his son will grow to admire that example and strive for it (instead of being criticized for stretching his wings). 

Hmmmm..... read back over that.  Sounds idealistic to me.

Anyway, sounds you have great insight into your husband and how he is taking all this.  Does he know how much you must care about him to understand him this well?

Logy

[HeartofPilgrimage]

Logy, I think most of the time he knows how much I love him ... but when he feels I am criticizing him (about something important to him), I can see in his expression that he can't hold the thought of my love in mind while he's absorbing my criticism. Black or white thinking. And probably if other people could peek in at the conversation they would tell me that I don't have a delicate way of disagreeing!

Ami, yes, I think your insight is exactly on target. Only I wouldn't say it was him-against-son, but rather his-opinions-vs.-other-opinions. If I don't agree with him about something important like that, then I must be against him.I tried to explain it is not a matter of thinking he's wrong as much as thinking it's not a huge deal.

I think both my husband and I used principles/ideals/opinions/ideas as a way of bolstering or reinforcing our sense of self. Hubby was a golden child who somehow turned out not to be as screwed up as his parents ... and I think that his faith commitment is a big reason why he's so much healthier than them. But sometimes I think he clings to the "letter of the law" because he feels like he will fall apart if he's not absolutely right about some of those right/wrong issues.

SO, Ami, while you look to other people to tell you who you are, you could say the same thing about us except we use ideals/principles/etc. in the same way ... to tell us who we are. I am learning to flex a bit ... but I admit that every time I learn to bend a little more, it feels like I'm losing a bit of who I am. It's hard to explain but if anybody can understand what I mean, it's the people on this forum.

[CB123]

HoP,

One of the biggest things I have learned in the last couple of years, is to let other people have time to absorb conversations.  Particularly when you hit on something that is pretty accurate, or on something that hurts, many people will immediately become defensive or even offensive.  I am learning to step back and give them a chance to recover their balance.  Many times, it results in changes in thinking. 

I dont think I would apologize to your husband for expressing your opinion.  You might think through what exactly you are tempted to apologize for: making him feel badly?  (you didnt)  breaking an unspoken agreement to not mention some areas?  (hmmm--that could be)  not appreciating all that he does do for your son?  (I didnt hear you saying that)  For me, when tender places like that get scraped, I just want a reminder that the other person still loves and accepts me.  Maybe doing that for him today would give him the reassurance that you support him. 

I have noticed, with myself and with others, that our first kid of the same gender gets a double whammy since they are a stand in for self.  If your husband has very high standards for his son, he is probably just transferring his own impossible standards for himself.  Which is probably what his own father did to him.  I'm glad he has you.

CB