LC vs NC

[swimmer]

I've been NC with my NM for about a year and a quarter.  I'm in the section of (lack of better words) people who just walk away, no explanations etc...

The birth of my daughter was the catalyst for this NC (I was very LC in my 20's for about 5 years).  I was expecting the birth of my daughter would give me new appreciation for my mother for the things she did for me.  Instead I've felt so sad over the flashbacks of how my NM treated me, and her critical nature of EVERYTHING I do.  I've exhausted every avenue of dealing with difficult people, and all of it turned to her advantage.  She saw how I could take the high road and not argue or get involved in family drama or gossip.... and she used me.  She would claim she had a disease, & when she couldn't get my attention like that, she would be really psychologically needy.  While I was pregnant I remember almost everytime I talked to her on the phone, she would complain or glorify my brother's sad situation in life (won't waste time explaining this one).  It's just an example of what my daughter should not see, a really needy mother competing for my attention. 

I was starting contractions on my way to the hospital while driving (water broke first), and somehow I was listening to her BS.  I was like.... Gotta go, we'll call later.  When my daughter was 2 weeks, my mother was talking about who knows what and I was trying to get off the phone cause my daughter was crying.  It's like she didn't hear me talk or the baby crying.  What a wake up call, to have my daughter have to compete with Grandma for my attention.  With other big red flags (I mentioned here in another post) I followed my gut and walked away.   from her.

I don't think my NM realizes I'm left with nothing to work with.  In the case of a malignant NM, there really is nobody there to work with.  I feel kind of sorry for her, there were so many years I had the bandwidth for her and she always led it in a direction I could not lead back to midline.  Now that I'm a mother, I really think with my NM's history it's not a good idea to have her involved with our life.  I just get overwhelmed with distraction around her games.

I just don't understand the point in having contact with my NM.... whose peace is it for?  What is the point if I feel okay about myself, then get berated by her.... don't let it outwardly show.... then she is more motivated to pull a stunt (which takes sometimes months of planning and seed planting all over the place!).

I've picked apart my weaknesses over and over and just can't stand myself around her.  I just think, why did this person bother getting up this am?  I've been kind and assertive, never aggressive.... To prove I'm not the one who is out of control (she loves this).  It's weird, she is so sneaky, some of the conversations (probably most) I've had with her were nothing but a grand scheme to get her something in the future.  What is the point????? 

I just feel like such a failure I can't "handle" my mother enough for LC.  I'm a very hopeful person, but have none for my own mother....this is the part I feel like I must be the crazy one.  I kinda hate her actually.     

[Portia]

Hi Swimmer
I wonder why *you* feel like a failure for not handling your mother for LC. I see that as being strong, you knowing what, perhaps, you don't want to handle, to deal with. Maybe some part of you still wants some small kind of contact. Perhaps it's the part that yearns to be loved (like you love yours); maybe it's the part that says you're a bad person if you don't have any contact (but you know you're not a bad person)?

Mothers are just people. I'll swap my mother for your mother, okay? And then neither of us are likely to feel bad, or want love, from either of them!

So you don't have hope for your mother; why is that crazy? It sounds reasonable to me.  And if you kinda hate her, well, that would seem pretty 'normal' too. Hopefully in time you won't hate her because you will see her even more clearly: as someone who happened to be your mother, but beyond that, just another person and not one you'd choose to spend *any* time with. I think a lot of the feelings people like us have are about what we wish for, instead of the reality of what we had. Do you spend any time around what I'd call loving mothers, women of your own mother's age? Comparing can be helpful.

[swimmer]

Yes Portia, you're right.  I really think I'm a bad person sometimes for not 'doing what I'm supposed to do'.  I'm hitting a cross roads now as my relatives which don't know everything, and I fear being judged and I have these horrid thoughts that people will tell my daughter how horrible I really am (ridiculous thought I know).  Clearly I have to use my time wisely to build my self confidence, I've had before..... It just got knocked loose with this adjustment of motherhood.

It's clear I need more faith in life itself, that people in my family may want us to have contact for their own comfort.... and they really do see right through her.  I'll focus on more positive thoughts about what I need to do to model healthy behavior for my daughter.  Maybe thought stopping has worked in the past, doesn't solve it but it will help.

More later, thx Portia.  I like your down to earth no nonsense resonse.

Swimmer  

[swimmer]

ugggh......... I'm right back where I started!!  I think it's best not to share too much at once.

[Baddaughter]

I'm up because my mom is dying (again) and has the whole family on pins and needles.   (She'll SHOW you)  I am no contact since July, so officially I have nothing in it, so why am I sitting up?  I don't know.

But I thought many times I could do low contact because lots of adults have less than constant contact with their parents and everyone seems to survive okay.  I hear some plan their own lives and time and make respected decisions about their own welfare. 

But that involves NM accepting my choices and to date and possibly now, for forever, she could not or would not do that. I found that it was not the level or quantity of contact that was destroying me.  Heck, she can't even HEAR me, ever.  I've been talking to myself all this time.  By daring to set a boundary with her, she has been forced to go to strenuous measures to dictate the quantity and quality of contact.  That takes me out of the planning of my own life and is very painful.  (Good Grief, I'm 52 -- I'm strong, resilient, etc.  Nobody dictates anything to me!)   

So in July I went NC for the third time.  She did not learn anything about me being an individual, still has not recognized that I can make those decisions and is now apparently dying without me being there.  Sigh.

The alternative is that I go there and she goes out "with a bang" torturing me to her last breath.  If I were positive that she were actually going to die this time, perhaps I would give her that final gift of one last blast at my emotional health? 

So you are right about being where you started from.  It is the tiger or the tiger.

Biddy

PS:  Thanks to all who have welcomed me in my newbieness -- it is like what I imagine a warm embrace would be like at a genuine "homecoming."

[Twoapenny]

Hi Swimmer,

I think the fear of being judged goes back to the childhood thing where you were constantly being judged by someone who often had a very arbitrary set of rules that changed without notice.  I think it leaves most of us with a strong sense of fear that what we are doing or saying is wrong, and that we often don't have the confidence we should in the decisions we make.

My situation is virtually the same as yours and I have had more or less the same thoughts. fears and emotions.  Some of the things that have helped me deal with all of it are:

Reminding myself that it's not down to me to sort out all the problems and keep everyone happy and informed.  What's gone on between me and my mum is our business.  The decisions I make about my life are my business.  The decisions I make about the kind of people I want around my son are 110% my business.  Feeling that you are somehow in the wrong for not being strong enough to deal with her abusive behaviour is part of the old NM "it's you with the problem, not me".  All your mum would have to do to have you in her life would be to stop being abusive.  Maybe it would be too late now, but she could have done something sooner.


The problem with abuse is that you are sort of brainwashed into believing that you deserve it or have created it in some way.  It's really hard to shake that feeling off.  Whenever I'm in a quandry  about something someone has done to me I think "would I be happy for this person to do this to my child?".  The answer's always no because it's usually some sort of behaviour that I've been programmed into accepting is okay when it actually isn't.  Sometimes it's easier to see if for what it is if you imagine it being directed at someone else.

If you find it hard to remain NC for yourself, how about doing it for your daughter?  This was really my big wake up call, there was no way I could manage to raise my son well and cope with my mum in my life because she was just too demanding and too toxic.  I'd find myself distracted after I spent time with her, tearful, angry etc.  I asked myself if the relationship between me and my mum was one I'd like my son to replicate with someone in his life - the answer was NO!  Children learn from our examples, if we are in destructive relationships they will learn from that and follow in our footsteps.  I don't want my boy to ever feel, even for one day, the way I felt when I was growing up.

What you've done is given your daughter a future.  You've given her a chance to grow up with a mum who is strong enough to make tough decisions, confident enough in the decisions she makes to stick by them and who is able to deal with some really big issues so that her daughter won't have to.  I think all of us on this board would have loved to have had a mum like you.

The only other thing I can say is that it gets easier over time.  I've been NC for three years now.  It took a couple of years to really start to unravel it all and this last year I spent trying to work out what my own thoughts and feelings realy were.  It's a long process and it's hard work but life gets easier and I personally am in a good place with it all right now.  I think it's been worth it.

[Nonameanymore]

Hi Swimmer,

Ironically I just posted about chat I had with a priest recommending LC as, welll not the Christian way, but the better way to do it.
You know what? I am very religious and very spiritual at the same time and am really aware of karma issues bouncing back at me (e.g. I am not talking to someone, then people will not talk to me etc), but I am pretty certain there is no way LC is going to work with NM. What I am saying is that I may not be so sure about other areas and aspects of my life, but the NC I have enforced (or trying to because I still get stupid group invites from her facebook - at 59? this is ridiculous but I completely ignore them) I am pretty damn sure about it. And I don't care how anyone judges me on that because I am on the only one who went through the experiences living with NM so no one outside of me can really feel how poisonous it is to be in (even limited) contact with this woman.

I don't hate NM, I just wish her as far away from me as possible.

P.

[sKePTiKal]

Hi swimmer...

I heard several important themes, issues or topics in your post. Too many to swallow & digest thoroughly, all at once time, methinks, without overwhelming yourself. Take it easier on yourself and separate some of those out... let one thing lead to another more slowly... and you'll get the clarity - and peace with yourself - that I think you're looking for.

Biddy - you go girl!! I like your attitude! And you are spot on, in your observation that the typical NM doesn't accept that we are individual people with the ability & rights to be & do things differently than they THINK we should be/do. What sucks, is that they blame us for their non-acceptance... leaving a vague sense of anxiety, self-doubt, self-questioning that persuades us, sometimes, to think there really IS something wrong with us or that we are the ones at fault.

I'm still working on that boundary with my own Nmom... and you know, it's OK that I haven't perfected my X-ray vision and ESP to know when she's launching a "sneak attack". I don't think I want to spend that much energy and time trying to suss out all the ways she's able to get to me... make me crazy|angry|sad... I am LC and have been for 30 years... and there still isn't any way to "fix" mom - but I've learned how to satisfy that weird need to have contact that I still have without letting her incapacitate me. I think letting go the idea that somehow an Nparent is "God" and somehow have total control/final judgement over us, helps a LOT.

Last time I saw my mother in person - she didn't even recognize me until I told her who I was. REDICULOUSLY hilarious, don't you think?

[Portia]

Hey ((((((Swimmer)))))) there's nothing wrong with you; the 'problem' is not with you. Maybe you don't need to do anything you don't want to? Be easy on yourself, how about doing that, if you want to?

[swimmer]

Hi everyone:)

I'm having a busy hectic day, not bad overall..... But just wanted to say I'm blown away at each and every one of these posts.... How validating for one thing, and that people share this issue in life.  I'm healing from so much shame now.  You guys are a powerful group of people in a very good way.  What a blessing:)

more soon, these posts have provoked so much thought I must meditate and process, and of course share what I've learned very soon.  What a blessed gift, thank you deeply.....

Swimmer

[bearwithme]

Swimmer:  How your life is so parallel to mine.  My entire way of thinking changed when I became a mother myself almost 2 and a half years ago.  When I was nine months pregnant and making arrangements for everyone to be at the hospital, etc., my NM tried to make it all about her and what attention she would be getting the day my baby was to be born.  My dad and his wife (he remarried and NM is ragefully jealous) were going to be at the hospital and she asked me "why are they going to be there?"  My NM wanted to be in the birthing room and I said no.  No way was she going to be the first to lay eyes upon my child and no way was my child to see her first!! 

I truly thought having a baby would give me the insight to NM's soul and appreciate her in a new light with less pain and resentment.  I actually thought we'd bond due to us both being "mothers" and would have a new friendship with something special in common.  Instead, it somehow, someway, in some twisted, bizarre way, she found a way to feel slighted and made things all about her and that I "wasn't doing enough for her" etc. 

I am LC right now and feel terrible about it.  BTW,  it was easier for me because we had to move 500 miles away due to my husbands job.  But that doesn't mean that I don't feel bad.  I don't call NM as much as I used to and I don't go out of my way to make arrangements for her to come visit.  She calls and wants to talk to my daughter and loves her dearly (so she says).  I struggle as well with LC vs. NC.  You are not alone.  I don't get the point and I don't understand how to cope with the guilt of cutting her off of my child's life.  She is the only grandchild so how could I do such a thing?

I so get your point that "there's nobody to work with."  There isn't, is there?  It's like this person is so far removed from your reality that you can't possibly reach them in any way, shape or form.  NC wouldn't teach my NM anything and she would go on with her life like nothing and just "keep busy" as she says.  She doesn't get it.  Her way of thinking is to insult me and make fun of me like she always has.  She doesn't love and has no ability to love unconditionally.  Her insides are empty.

My brother has a difficult situation in his life and she makes it all about her.  She pouts and talks as if she should be getting all the attention (this one I won't explain either) but she can't fathom that she is to love my brother unconditionally.  She's rotten.

I can't stand myself around my NM either.  I feel weak and tired.  Although I can be assertive and establish the many boundaries, lo and behold, she somehow beats me to the punch and later I kick myself.  She plants her seeds like an expert and I'm slow to see where she has placed them and then--boom!

When she's out of control, I'm in control.  It's weird.  I look at her like she's some crazy monster that has no brain.  I get very detached from her and think "oh my good gawd, I came from this hideous creature....God help me."  I feel sorry for myself, really.  Then I feel sorry for her, she's so pathetic and sad.

I know this isn't about me and I didn't mean to hijack your beautiful thread here.  But I think we are going through the same thing here and maybe we can commiserate with one another because I don't have the advice you seek.  I need help myself.

The only thing I know is that I love being a mother and my NM did not.  She used me to make her look good and still tries.

I am working on NC and am slow with it at this time.  I don't think I'm ready yet but my brain tell me differently and my heart says "not yet."

Bear.



 

[Logy]

You are so not alone!!!  Loved reading everyone's experiences and supportive views.  We all struggle with this decision, flipping between the two, trying to make a decision - what's best for everyone. 

For me it came down to what felt healthy.  What felt good for me.  We are so used to accommodating others and their needs that our needs and feelings are pushed back, so far back.  We just focus on doing the "right" thing.  Oh, how I was programmed to do the right thing!  But what I learned is that it was the right thing for NM, for what would make her look good, what would give her honor.  So I had to evaluate what "the right thing" meant.  Did it mean that I didn't matter?  My priorities didn't matter?  My friends and husband didn't matter?  After spending decades wondering about this, I have finally learned that I do deserve to feel good about myself.  I deserve to raise my child the best way I can.  I deserve to have outside interests.  I deserve a pedicure every now and then!   (when I said I got a pedicure I was ridiculed for taking good care of myself)

SO.....back to the decision.....LC or NC.  I don't think you should pressure yourself to make a final never-changing decision.  Pay attention to your feelings.  If it feels bad, it probably is.  If you feel bad and need to back off, it's a good decision for you.  If you advance a little to your NM (knowing your own worth and strength) and it still feels bad, then you may get an answer. 

I have often been accused of being a procrastinator (usually by NM).  I recently read an article about procrastination.  Procrastination is viewed as negative by society.  The article said that it may not be procrastination, but incubation.  We need to process our decision, our feelings, our thoughts.  So we let life go by while we "incubate".  Letting things incubate may let us make a better decision.  Process our feelings.  Weigh the options.

Don't be afraid to let things incubate.

With love,
Logy

[river]

I also relate to lots of whats been said. 
Swimmer/ Bear, what do you mean when you say " no-one to work with"   I think I understand, but I want to check this. 

My view, is, protect your children, yes.  Your children come first.  My NM was a vamp to children, iether that or she rejected them entirely.  I learnt this too late, like so much of what I learnt in life, I mean much later than I wish. 
If you cant entirely protect them, you can explain to them, in a calm realistic way if possible. 

[swimmer]

Hi River-

"Nobody to work with" basically means a one sided relationship.  The person doesn't hear, or won't hear anything said..... and won't make any effort when called on it.

Swimmer

[Logy]

river,

My NM is a vamp to children as well.  Her license plate says "Children First".  She tells everyone she contacts that she "loves children".  She volunteered to support a group of children at a Wednesday night church event.

Well, I was a child under her care.  I suffered.  Before I understood everything about NM, she had alot of time and influence over my daughter, and daughter and I both suffered.  NM and I had alot of disagreements over her handling of my nephews (after my daughter was grown and I had finally learned the truth about NM).  NM told her new neighbors ("He's a doctor" - NM's adulation of someone she can associate with who has status) that she loves children and would love to babysit their children anytime.  So they took her up on it one night and were gone for 2 hours.  Well, NM couldn't stop complaining about how long they were gone and how difficult it was to deal with these children.  Ha, these intelligent parents never left their children with her again, and actually stopped all communication with NM.  Poor kids.
 
So NM volunteered to help with church and the children's night.  All I hear is how these children (4-6 years old) expect her to wait on them.  "They just sit there like princesses and wait for me to put the food on their plate."  How many of you know 4 year olds who will go to the buffet and dish up their own food?

Sometimes I'm surprised that I am LC and not NC.

Logy