Narcissism- Codependency- Voicelessness

[Meh]

Cleaning out some of my old paperwork last night, came across an old pamphlet on the codependents 12 step program that I have had since I was about 22 years old. I read it, it made a little more sense to me then it did when I was 22. But when I was 22 I hadn't heard the term voicelessness and I hadn't identified my mother as Narcissistic.

When I read about codependency I wasn't really able to completely separate it from Narcissism and Voicelessness, it all seems to be the same mess of a problem.

Is every person who is in a relationship with a Narcissist codependent?


"LET-GO-AND-LET-GOD" Does this work for voicelessness also? And how does one apply this with discernment or does one not discern?

I think I have codependent tendencies even after all these years, even after reading and meditation and yoga and psychotherapy.

It's exhausting, all of it, maybe I need to say to myself you know what I am F'ed up and that is just the way it is. I'm flawed and there is nothing that is going to "FIX" it. So I just accept it and live with it.

OR something like that.


In fact I feel relief in saying to myself "I am F'ed up and that is just the way it is". Seriously it's a relief to not try to be "healthy".

Maybe it's healthy to not be obsessed with becoming healthy-minded.

I feel better already.

I'm a mess, SO WHAT?

I'm flawed, SO WHAT?

My life has not gone according to my plan, SO WHAT?

So-and-So what's their name..does not LOVE me, SO WHAT?


There also must be things that one fights for.
Let-go-and-let-god has a disengaging quality that may be very helpful but it also has a passiveness in it.

[CB123]

Actually, Helen, that's kinda where I have arrived!  So what.

Everyone is messed up.  Every single person.  Why do I have to be perfect?  I can make mistakes, say the wrong thing sometimes, apologize, pick myself up and keep moving.  I am finally to the place that when someone says I am overly sensitive, I dont come out swinging!  Yeah.  I AM overly sensitive.  That's me.  So what?

Mostly, I am learning to be okay with who I am and how I got here.  And okay with other people.  Maybe we are each at a stage in life where we don't "mesh".  Maybe I cant be close to everyone.  So what?  I am learning to look at myself and say: boy, I sure am being a pain in the butt today. 

I think the acceptance in "let-go and let-God" is applicable in almost every situation.  I think an awful lot (if not most) people are codependent.  The difference seems, to me, whether or not we realize it or not.  It helps me, too, to think of the whole thing as a life-long journey rather than a sprint toward normalcy.  Whatever that is. 

I think discernment comes in when you are avoiding psychopaths.  There are a few of those thrown into the mix of run-of-the-mill N's.  I dont think that there are a lot of them, but I think we each run into a few in our lifetimes and they make an indelible impression.  We look over our shoulders for a long time after an encounter like that.  But most people are just everyday run of the mill types.

Love
CB

[Ami]

THIS is my current problem and relates to what you are saying. *I* feel guilty when I WANT and NEED things that are important to me IF I hurt other people as a by product.
 I am ravaged by guilt.
 What am I?   A Mother Teresa on acid?????????
 Why can't I just be a person who loves themselves and tries to meet their needs ? Sounds simple--doesn't it?   
      I am   feeling Like I am Coming from a crazy place BUT maybe I am healing?           Love to you ((Helen)))))       Ami


PS Thank you for your wise response on my thread ,Helen.

[sKePTiKal]

Well, I think we're all "interdependent" - you know, I need the farmers to grow veggies & feed cows - that kind of thing. Being "dependent" is part of the human condition - blissfully so, in some instances.

Co-dependent, to me, is a relational state where two people NEED each other in negative ways; for negative reasons... and can't stand as separate individuals. The "other" is always responsible for one's own shortcomings... or whatever.

You're on to something about obsessing on fixing ourselves, I think. What do you suppose this obsession holds out as the goal? Does anyone have any hopes of attaining that undefined goal? Sometimes, I think it's a good thing to take a time-out from that - and just plain old live. Just like it's possible to work out too much physically - making ourselves ill, I think it's also possible to overdo inner work to the point that we simply create new issues.

[CB123]

PR,

My "time out" is to do something "sensual"--not sexual, but something "outer". 

Make myself a supper with a good cheese, fruit, baguette, a little sweet.  Climb into bed with a good book and a hot cup of tea.  Curl up on the couch with a blanket and a chick flick.  Take a long walk in the snow (we have had some of that lately--I decided to drive down some impossible roads with classical piano music blaring while I soaked in the sights of icy trees and fields.  Breathtaking!)  Go shopping in one of my favorite shops that have lots of my favorite colors and fabrics.

There is nothing introspective about any of that, but it is somehow balancing to just enjoy something beautiful and not look inward.

Good thread, Helen.

CB

[Nonameanymore]

Hi Helen,

I attended CODA in London on and off for 5 years...
Thanks so much for reminding me of LET GO AND LET GOD.

P.x

[sKePTiKal]

Aw shucks, CB... thanks!

The "time-out" concept sorta came to me as I evolved from the "glass half empty" perceptional stool... to the "glass half full" one. I think it was Lighter who pointed out my immense obsession with naval-gazing (how ARE you, Lighter??). Took a while to sink in and for me to understand... and then my brain dredged up something from my buddhist readings of many years ago.

Totally independent of my experiences - inner, outer, emotional, intellectual etc - there are always examples of life's beauty, simple joys, and splendid mysteries - waiting to be appreciated. It's part of my job - my responsibility - as a human to appreciate it, look for it, seek it out. I think in some way it completes some natural cycle... and it's not work, at all; not a burden. It's more like play. And it can happen in those split-second awarenesses, in the midst of all kinds of other activity.

It's like changing the dial on the radio to remove static; a particular frequency.

It's a very useful self-defense (and self validation) technique especially since it seems the media and people who make use of the media are indulging themselves in excessive negativity, blaming, looking for more "monsters under the bed". If only that energy could get directed toward solutions... giving without getting... doing what needs to be done, instead of trying to shift blame. TV is on too much in my house - but I've been shutting it off more. Even as background noise, the negativity filters out & around. Yuck!

But, before I'm guilty of totally hijacking Helen's topic... I don't think it matters that much about labels: "co-dependent", N, etc. Once, you've seen how the "trick" works... (it's like some emotional, interpersonal sleight of hand)... you're able to choose to "change the frequency" and tune it out, avoid being hurt by it, see it for the "trick" that it is... and change your action/reaction accordingly. Not that you always have desirable choices! And sometimes, you have to let an N win the emotional push-hands... to stay free within yourself.

But no matter what - the birdies sing, the sun shines, the rain & snow make "pretty"... and there are nice people who smile & connect - who appreciate being noticed and treated like a fellow human being. All the time.

[CB123]

PR,

I like your analogy to the radio frequency.  I have never thought of it that way--but that is exactly it.  I struggle to explain it in a way that doesnt sound like I am telling myself a fairy tale....but you have done it so well.  Its like both the confusion, struggle, weariness exist at the same time as the beauty, rightness, joy.  Sometimes I am too overwhelmed by the hard things to do anything but put one foot in front of the other...but most of the time, I can choose how I fine tune the dial. 

This kinda goes along with the "pain body" thread.  Your experience there makes me smile, too, PR.  Isnt it amazing how these life transitions (so joyful: retirement, new home) can be so earth shaking and hard?  My oldest son is getting married next month...my second to the youngest is moving three hours away...my daughter is going to graduate school 5 hours away.  All good things--the very things I have worked my whole life for.  And yet they are a struggle, as well. 

Many, many good beautiful experiences to you in your new home, PR,

CB

[river]

   There also must be things that one fights for.
Let-go-and-let-god has a disengaging quality that may be very helpful but it also has a passiveness in it.

 

........... it does, but it depends on the situation.  For some situations,   I find a more helpful saying is: 

  we do the footwork and we leave the results to God.

           and for me the 'footwork' I also call self activation, and it can mean a whole host of things, but ... its acting rather than reacting.   Sorry, havent got time to read all of this thread right now, but wanted to say this... will try to get back and read more respectfully

[Meh]

But, before I'm guilty of totally hijacking Helen's topic... I don't think it matters that much about labels: "codependent", N, etc. Once, you've seen how the "trick" works... (it's like some emotional, interpersonal sleight of hand)... you're able to choose to "change the frequency" and tune it out, avoid being hurt by it, see it for the "trick" that it is... and change your action/reaction accordingly. Not that you always have desirable choices! And sometimes, you have to let an N win the emotional push-hands... to stay free within yourself.

This above statement about the "trick" is pretty darn interesting.

You can hijack this thread, I don't mind.

[teartracks]

Hi Helen,

I attended a 12 step program for codependents for a little over a year,  8 or so years ago.  Letting go and letting God became real to me about 4 years ago when in frustration I cried out, God, why do I have the terrible feeling I'm having now on the heels of putting myself out for another sacrificially and at the time I thought unselfishly?  I was driving a long distance back from a trip where I'd poured out my sacrificial/unselfish  acts.   I felt disappointment and frustrated with the results.  What had transpired, well within the bounds civility,  had come to an end, yet I felt emptiness on every human level.  The results I'd wanted just hadn't happened.  So the disappointment and frustration were what made me cry out for answers.   I got one answer.  Put as simply as I'm able, the answer was, tt, you have a knack for seeing train wrecks about to happen in the lives of others.  All your life, you've jumpen on the tracks ahead of their trainwrecks and tried to stop the train.  You're trying to put yourself in the business that only I (God) can handle.   I (God) never designed you to do what you're trying to do.  Their life is their life, however they choose to run it is their business, not yours, furthermore, you're killing yourself trying to perform this super-human feat.  Let Me (God) do this work you've been trying to do.  Continuing to drive, I wept sad tears for all the times I'd put myself at risk, doing things I wasn't designed to do.  I turned over the reigns of that part of my 'bent' to God.  This was one lesson that turned into a milestone.   Some lessons come easy and some come very hard.  In my experience, it's the hard ones that allow us to turn memorable corners in life.  This was one of mine.

I was my mother's caregiver for years, in the same house.  You could say we were two adults living in the concentrated eye of dysfunction, narcissism, codependence, and God only knows  how many other manifest,  un-named  symptoms.  I spent part of those seven years jumping on the tracks of her life, hell bent and determined not to let her fall.   She was in her 80's and I knew that a fall spelt the end.  I simply didn't want her to die.  I didn't want her to suffer the misery of trying to recover from a fall (or any other trauma).  I wanted to spare her suffering no matter what it cost me.  Where my own health is concerned, it cost a lot in the end.  Anyway, toward the end of her life I was able to let go (by now you could pretty much say that I was living on the tracks) more and more, but not entirely.   Then when she passed, I sat in the house hardly moving, making no plans past the immediate half hour.  I spent a year like that, making no plans and not wanting to.  I had a wonderful kind neighbor who checked on me.  In the aftermath of her death, living in the grief, and basically living in a dormant state, I emerged having turned yet another corner.

During that year, without purposing it I let go of the reigns to my life.  I'd already developed trigger finger from holding on so tightly.  As is the case with a number of life lessons, this one seemed to seep into my being quietly and for the most part unobserved.  It happened while I was  just being and I suppose unconsciously absorbing what I needed to learn.  Things I couldn't have learned in earlier times when I was busy jumping in front of the train.  In that year of dormancy, as far as I know, nothing catastrophic happened in my life on account of it and  as far as I know nothing was left undone because of MY inertia.  This was another memorable milestone in the way I think and perceive life.   I learned that if I allow it, life has a way of stabilizing or adjusting itself whatever our circumstances and as far as I can tell, living in the knowledge I think I've gained, the outcome is far superior to what it was for me personally before I learned these things.  Almost a year to the day after her passing, I went to live in another state where I know many people and have a nice circle of old and now new friends.   By now, I've spent the best part of two years with my new level of understanding, at least the part about staying off the tracks.  

Zoom forward to this minute.  Am I truly able to live IN the lessons I think I learned and which are outlined above?  Well, I'm laid up in bed with complicated Labyrinthitis.  I have poor balance and have to have assistance walking.  I may be stuck away from home for a week or several weeks.  Before coming here, I had the year 2010 completely scoped out with various plans.  I had to cancel all of my short term plans.  I have to start over again as far as planning is concerned.  So, am I truly able to live in the lessons I think I learned?  We'll see...  In the meantime, in this, I'm looking to learn new  lessons.  

Hugs,

tt

[Meh]

Hi, TT,

Thank you so much for your heartfelt response. I'm digesting what you just wrote.

[sKePTiKal]

Helen, my experience of the "trick" goes like this:

N pokes at one of my "buttons", usually triggering outrage or defensiveness or some deep-seated fear/anxiety about myself... this usually takes the form of some delusional accusation that completely denies facts. The outrage version can be a.) N tries to co-opt my support in some grievance toward a 3rd person or b.) is a direct, unfair and unjust attack on me.

All of these are really the "distraction" aspect of sleight of hand - direct the attention away from the real intent and hide the manipulation. (Sounds sort of like push hands, huh?)

Then, while I'm immersed and overwhelmed with my emotional reaction and not thinking clearly... N realizes that I've taken the bait... and proceeds to set the "hook" - i.e., getting me to side with N and support their N-ish goal or do N's bidding without concern or self-awareness of what it is I want/need in that situation.

There are variations; the one that comes to mind is a grandiose scheme that "must" be accomplished without regard to the impact on people or the potential flaws, problems, or "catch-22s" inherent in it. The only thing that matters is the grandiosity of the scheme and some questionable benefit. All attempts to discuss, plan for contingencies to deal with potential glitches or problems in the plan are dismissed, diminished and denied. Until, that is, they occur - then there's plenty of blame to go around.

The dead give-away of the "trick" while it's being performed, is that N can't/doesn't hear anyone else in the process. They may acknowledge that you've spoken, tho. But they don't really hear what you've said. It - and you - are of no consequence because they are enthralled with the glorious "dream" they're having.

I stayed in a situation where I was subject to this trick multiple times, to learn exactly how it worked and what I could do to protect myself from falling for it, hook line & sinker. Understanding, defining, and constantly declaring my boundaries (for myself and to N) helped me to stave off the emotional confusion of "pushed buttons" - and it declared a line in the sand that I wouldn't be pushed from or over. It also helped me see that even what appeared to be a "negative" result from this boundary maintenance wasn't necessarily all that negative at all, in reality. I gained clarity, through that practice, on what it was that I really wanted - in and out of the N situations - and the likelihood of that actually happening in the N situation and how much power I really had (more than I was aware of).

Confidence grew. As that grew, and as I tiptoed gingerly out of my old compliant, self-defeating comfort zone... confidence grew more - which helped nurture a sense of inner security; an "I'm OK-ness **" and an "It's gonna be OK - no matter what happens". Then, encounters with N changed. I wasn't nearly as vulnerable to the "trick" anymore. They were still an annoyance - like a fly or mosquito - that you can't quite swat. And the attempts to perform the trick started to look pretty pathetic and like so much flailing around for something that really didn't matter. It was even comical at times.

And maybe this is my own egotistical, self-delusional myth, you know? I know I'm still susceptible to getting sucked into the trick; some days I do better than others at stating my boundaries. But that's OK, because I am learning and refining, seeing more details.

** and by "OK-ness", I mean I'm OK with the fact that I have these vulnerabilities; that I'm f'd up from the screwy childhood I had - but not so much that I'm powerless to gradually, over the rest of my life, try to change myself and "how I am".

Hope that helps explain about the "trick".

[Meh]

Hope that helps explain about the "trick".

Hi, Phoenix, Thanks for sharing your experience!

[Meh]

Hi ,  river,  CB 123,  Persephone, Ami:

Thanks for your thoughts!