Another layer of the onion

[Gaining Strength]

Inward - feeling great hope, very strong
Outward - time will tell - looking for outward shifts that's the sign of real change

[Hopalong]

Brilliant, GS!
Your detailed realization that self-sabotage in the past actually led to things being accomplished -- by someone else...and PR's response.

One thing I've absorbed from the Dave Ramsey classes (FPU) is that no matter where you are financially, there is a way up. It may be very slow, but this is about tortoises, not hares. The long view. Not tomorrow.

Another human being, to sit with you and look at the list of debts and needs--in all their glory--and help you "walk through" to a simple starting point (clearly not from your parents unless they are giving you a predictable monthly sum--and even then, you may kick in to an emotional place where you are determined to also find a way to generate your own stream even if it's tiny), sure might help. (There are trained DR facilitators/advisors who do this--but the classes themselves are the place to start.)

He described that once he had a system for climbing out identified (simple debt reduction steps that had nothing to with creditors' demands but ONLY to do with what he was capable of, with his CURRENT ACTUAL circumstances--which also involved an attitude of reality-based self protection, and a How to Answer Their Calls script) ... a huge weight was lifted away. (Before all this? He was bankrupt twice and had experienced every conceivable level of guilt, and of being hounded by creditors, terror for his family, shame, etc.)

He finally knew what to do. Knowing what steps to take, and IN WHAT ORDER, is such a relief to those who've been so disabled by anxiety (in my case, that plus ADD) that they didn't know they could still, always, make a plan.

His "baby steps" are brilliant, imo, because they simplify the whole "big picture" into pieces anyone, even me, can understand. My daughter went to the classes with me even while she was unemployed and had nothing financial happening except interest mounting on her debts. I believe it was empowering for her anyway, and might be for you too. There's comfort in the way he presents it all, zero shaming, and so many, many things to grab onto. It can be transformational, imo. We laugh a lot. It's not abstract. He makes it all utterly, utterly concrete, and with compassion.

And what a thing to show your son, that he doesn't need to grow up in fear of money or its lack. All that to say...if you visit www.daveramsey.com and click on Financial Peace University, then Find a Class, you'd never be alone with this again.

hugs
Hops

[Gaining Strength]

I love Dave Ramsey.  Great suggestion.  I know there was a class in my town that started several months ago. I need to keep my eyes and ears open for another one.  Great suggestion.

BTW - no monthly stipend.  Iwas  off their radar when I turned 23.  they forgot to mention it to me and their parents provided my parents with wealth but none-the-less there was definitely no pass through.  And I do know that they had NO obligation.  Absolutely none.  BUT, b/c they did not prepare me for a future explicitly and b/c they fought me tooth and sabotaged whenever I got a decent job, and because I ASSUMED (part of the legacy of "do not discuss" rule of the house) that there would be wealth that would materialize out of the blue for me (as did/does the community I live in) and b/c that is what happened to my piers who were hand-selected children of my parents piers - I ASSUMED that they would be a pass through for financial solvency.  THAT is a HUGE psychological issue that I have been working on specifically for 15 years.  Clearly no simple nut to crack.

[Gaining Strength]

Another insight. 
In a conversation with my mother yesterday she was being pitiful and helpless.  I saw this a an attempt to draw me in to do for her what little she can still do for herself.  But I knew that if I stepped in she would then use that as an opportunity to metaphorically step on my head.  That has been her pattern with me in my adulthood - be pitiful, draw me in, become a dragon, refuse to tell me what I need to know to help, refuse my help and then blame me for the entire situation to her friends and family.

What is that pattern?

She is not an N, my father is, but she has been officially diagnosed as having N traits and she has NEVER had a mothering bone in her body.  The closest thing to "mothering" is her "femine" pitifulness and helplessness.

[sKePTiKal]

'morning!

To me, this sounds like the parentification role reversal: she comes on to you like a wheedling child... expecting you to meet her needs... and then when you try to, it's never "good enough". Sort of like a cruel game of "kick me". Not telling you how she wants "it" done... just another form of kick me.

What I've wondered a couple times about this aspect of your story, as you've told it, is why "how she wants it done" is so important? Was she an immaculate housekeeper? A gourmet chef? What about how GS wants to do it and GS's standards of "good enough"? What about GS's "I like it THIS way"?

Seems to me, that this is an alternative "way out" of playing her kick me game to simply saying no or ignoring her. And as to why she does this - well, sounds like she was married to a flaming N; this might just be "pecking order" - deflecting & sending it on down the chain... or it could be how she chooses to defend her own self identity - to confirm that she is important to others.

And I'm gonna go out on a limb here (you're welcome to tell me where to go) and also question the perception that you were totally "unprepared" and tossed into the deep end of the pool. You seem to me to be insightful, deep thinking, and even have the sort of dry humor that I so enjoy. You've learned lots of things - through experience or reading or self-reflection - all by yourself. I would question this perception about yourself - this part of your thinking about yourself - in the wider scope of life beyond your parents and their insulated society. Beyond their values; ways of "doing"; what they think is important. After all - look how they treated you! What's so attractive about that value system???

And while I hear clearly that you're not where you want to be - emotionally or in life - I'm also hearing you forming a clear picture of what matters to YOU and what you WANT. The "how-to" get there comes after you know that without a doubt yourself. And there are as many ways of how-to as there are individual people. What you've been through would completely sink a lot of people - but you aren't sunk. There's courage for you! You keep on going, trying - that's persistence and determination. As difficult as your journey has been, I've never heard a nasty word out of you - you've not "taken it out" on others, just to blow off steam and relieve the pressure of rage. I think you've got a lot of positive things working in your favor, about how & who you are. Time to list those and put them on the scale against the things you think you lack - I think the positives will out the negatives by a whole bunch!

What worked for your parents isn't necessarily what will work for you. I'm very glad that your path - the one that makes you who you are - is different. You have a great wealth of compassion - I think you might be able to spare some of this for yourself and still have plenty to share with others.


((((my friend))))

[Gaining Strength]

Thank you so much for your thoughts PR.  Where I'll tell you to go is right where you are.  your thoughts and responses help me sort this mess.

What worked for your parents isn't necessarily what will work for you.

A truer statement could not be made. 
This is the thing.  I find myself toggling back and forth between my thoughts and perceptions as and adult and those from my childhood.  As an adult it is perfectly clear that your statement is absolutely true.  But the reason I go there is because as a child I could only see what they had as what I expected and wanted for myself.  I could not see any "other".  I am trying to get at the connective tissue to that child's perspective so that i can look for and find the strings binding the elephants foot that I once thought were heavy chains.

Your points about the section on feeling "unprepared" are most helpful.
I have been really struggling with the dichotomy or choice made clear through the dream where I am in my apartment and can chose to stay a Cinderella or servant to my sabotaging father/brother or to give up that longing for family/belonging and chose friends.  It is like a vertical integration choice over friendship (horizontal) where thinks are tenuous and based on acceptable behavior , where relationships are accepted and rejected like currency in an open market.

I must find a way to see myself as prepared  but the NOW is not the problem.  I must find the right "energy" or "perspective" to do this as a child.  It is the child who was dependant on survival.  It was as the child that the extreme anxiety and immobility kicked in.  So I think I can take what you have written and go back and see that what I longed for was not necessarily what I needed.  I can formulate a craftiness that would allow me to srvive that childhood without getting sucked into their system.  I am pretty sure I can do this becaue I find myself trying to teach such craftiness to my own child.

re: my mother.  How she want things done has to do with things for her.  She has no interest in things concerning me.  About herself - every week people in our commnity comment to me about what a great person she is and how capable she is and what great things she accomplishes.  (It's all illusion and that is not sour grapes on my part.) But when it comes to very simple things that she has done a million times she cannot do it.  Things as simple as ordering flowers for a family whose adult son died on Sunday.  (By the way, she has a personal friendship with her florist who has done work for her for decades.)  She was not going to go to a club meeting on Tuesday at a friends house.  Protocol requires that members call the hostess and regret.  She NEVER does.  I asked her to call the hostess (so I wouldn't feel embarrassed yet again.)  Our group has a small yearbook/directory printed every single year.  She said she would.  Do you have her #?  No I am in the car.  How would I look it up?  (She has known this woman and her mother for 40 or 50 years.)  She knows how to do all of this but she wants me to do it all.  It goes from this sniveling stuff to things important like health insurance.  I certainly understand wanting help with insurance - it is a pain.  But she (capable though she is) sloughs off the entire think and then refuses to give the necessary information to get it done.  It is frustrating if I choose to get into it with her but I have chosen  to put it backon her and not step into the "responsibility" trap that I was trained to do.  Putting it back on her or doing only what she gives me the information to do and then stopping has been very successful for me.  But the other stuff still needs processing because it all has triggers from the past when I felt so helpless.  When I wanted so to please so that I coudl find a place in "family".

[sKePTiKal]

OK - you just gave me idea. It's silly, nuts and crazy maybe... but what can it hurt to try it? Nothing.

What about... IF...
you helped the child-you write out or design the kind of family and friends she wanted? Even draw pictures for the story - even if it's only stick people! There are journals - I've seen these in art supply stores sometimes - that include lined pages with blank sheets for illustrations. Tell the story - from the child's perspective - of what she wanted then (and still does) and what she wanted to have for memories about that time in her life - now.

It doesn't have to take a lot of time. Just allow a small bit time a day - more if you have more time - but always try to tell the story from the child's voice about "the perfect family" for her. Make believe and fantasy - sure. But in the process, you might find those missing pieces you're looking for. No deadlines - no requirement that it be completed - no requirement that you HAVE to write every day - just something that you're working on - for you - as time allows.

As for your mom - I can SOOO relate! Infuriating, isn't it? No matter how much I want my mom to be a grown up and be able to take care of herself (oh, and maybe give a damn about me sometimes) she's just not able to. I think you've got the right approach - enforcing those boundaries and not just jumping to please her, on command - but yeah, there's still the issue of the of wishing that this time was different and that funny empty place with the wind whistling through it. That's when I have to do some little thing to comfort myself - either connecting with a "real" human being who's not like that or a cuppa tea and watching the birds... something... anything that reminds me I'm a whole person without pleasing her or meeting her needs.

Gotta run for today! We're beginning the process of moving my MIL in, with a trip back "home" next week and there's still lots to do between now and the day we leave. I will try to check in as much as I can, while I'm online, to see how this part of your "travels" are going! Hugs & smooches... you're going to be (already are, probably) just fine. It's the parents who have the real insoluable problem!

[sKePTiKal]

Hi Ann,

your last statement - about what wouldn't we do to gain a real place in our family - hit me and richocheted into a question about families in general. Something to ponder on... as I don't have a definitive answer... and maybe my rambling will provide something helpful for GS, too.

The whole concept of "family" is pretty old, isn't it? The "Leave it to Beaver" image from TV; the Norman Rockwell - ization of family came to almost sanctify this concept and to hold up an ideal that most families (I believe) can't really match. But historically, it wasn't always that way. Young boys would be apprenticed out and leave home at 10 or 12... etc. And then, there's the idea that family is the "safest" place... the most enduring connections... and well, I guess we wouldn't be here online if that always held true. Biologically, of course, the purpose of a family is to provide the safety and protection and material needs of children until they can fend for themselves. But when is that? Does it vary? Due to the child him/herself? or society? or circumstances?

Sometimes I see this connection to family in terms of plants - some plants spread by sending roots & ryzhomes underground and new shoots grow from those. But sometimes, plants spread by seed - and the seeds can be blown along by the wind to find new areas of fertile soil, to germinate, sprout and begin to thrive... with absolutely no connection to family.

And then there's the tribe.... I've sometimes defined family for myself, as the "tribe" of friends in my life. They've often been more supportive and caring than my own family. It's not a "lesser-than" substitute, either. Time and distance don't seem to impact those relationships... for example, in the current facebook "reunion" of my 5th grade classmates. I hadn't seen or heard from these people since 1968.

I've "gypsied" around a lot in my life - lived a lot of different places and had different lifestyles. I've become something quite different (revert to type or hybridization??) where I've been "planted". And no, my family hasn't always "approved" or even accepted some of those different chapters in my life. They don't have to -

---- 'coz it's MY life and I'm the only one who gets to, has to, live it. So I also get to choose what matters, is valuable, is important, to me. If they disagree or don't understand - oh well!!!! To each his own. I don't understand my FOO, either, and the choices they make and how they choose to live. Not a requirement for being related; for having been born, I don't think.
Didn't see that on the birth certificate, you know?

Sorry for the ramble, GS... it's even incomplete... there's a wealth of stuff to ponder in what Ann in brings up.

[Hopalong]

Hi GS,

I wrote a new post inspired by you, "Phamily".
It started as a reply to you, then I realized it might make a new topic.

love to you,
Hops

[Gaining Strength]

able to get much done yesterday.  Would like it to stretch it into a week of action.

[Gaining Strength]

Through  a series of dreams last night I tapped into the huge sense of being rejected and the feeling of desparation to get noticed and included with people who are considered friends and family.  When I woke up I felt the heavy weight of that feeling of despair, the hopelessness of being left out.  It is such a Cinderella feeling but from the 1st half of the story, where she is made to do all the drudgery.  It is like being invited to a ball and once I arrive I am handed a bucket and mop.  But the dream images find me doing things that are not me in order to be allowed in or to keep the contact.

I see so clearly how this attaches to my experience of life.  It is painful and hopeless.  I am so isolated, right out in the crowd.  And yet right now I feel some of the burden lifted.  I don't know what that is about.  But I will hold on to it as long as possible.

[sKePTiKal]

Hi there...

I was reading yesterday's post and wanted to tell you that it's OK if you don't get as much done, as you set out to do... it will be there later... but you can celebrate - always - the bit you did accomplish, right? Enjoy that bit of satisfaction for what you did choose to do.

But you just posted about your dream, too. I think the lifting you feel, is you turning loose the idea that only YOU are the one responsible for the Cinderella drudgery; that you can dress, and dance, and play too - just like everyone else. The "Cinderella" role isn't who you ARE; and you can choose not to partake of that role - for an hour, a day, a week. I mean, what's the worst that can happen if you walk away from the tasks & to-do list today and enjoy the sunshine and warmer weather? Doesn't mean you're a slacker, does it? It does completely describe YOU; the tasks are just tasks. If I leave the house today and don't wash the coffee cups - the worst that will happen is that I'll come home in a few days and have dirty cups in the dishwasher or sink; so what's different than any other day? Doesn't make me the world's worst housekeeper (I hope!!).

One trick I guess you'd call it, that I use on myself sometimes - is to satisfy that craving to "enjoy" myself FIRST - before starting a task that I don't want to deal with. Put the reward up front and then, it seems easier to "pay up" with what I agreed with myself I'd do, in exchange for being able to take some time to enjoy myself. Doesn't have to be big or an all-day shirking of "responsibility" (that can cause a guilt response for me that sinks me even deeper into "cinderella"). I sorta have to work up to that all-day-off mode... even with no kids to care for; no job to go to... still. I keep chipping away at this and it is getting better.

It will get better for you too!  You'll find the way - look at far you've already come! 

[Gaining Strength]

Thanks PR.
I think shifting into a sense of appreciating how much I have accomplished will help alleviate the self-criticism.  That is a great suggestion - celebrate what is done.  I can do that.

The issue about house tasks is unfortunately more than a dirty coffee cup.  It is much closer to the homes of Hoarders with the primary difference that I don't bring stuff in but to say it is sluttered is not even close.  It is somewhere in between.  The state of the house is quite simply disgusting.  I won't allow anyone to come over.  It is really gross.  But the issues are not simple they run very, very deep and are difficult to get at. 

In fact, yesterday my gas was turned off.  I can't possibly get it turned back on.  the bill is way too large.  I no longer need the heat and I can manage to do without hot water but I have to find a way to get a stove and oven.  But to tell the truth, a whole new electric oven can be had for less than the gas bill.  I'll have to do something until I can get the gas paid.  I have until next winter.  It is definitely more important that i keep the electricity and phone on while I find an income source.

Meanwhile I must still work through this psychological stuff ....

[Hopalong]

You are extremely courageous, GS.
Thank you for sharing this with us, the true state.

I am so proud of you for writing that. I am glad every time I see you state more detail.

What would be the worst that could happen if you went to a local social services counselor and said, after getting his/her commitment to confidentiality:

I am educated, raised in a privileged family, but I have no resources. I need help. I am not a hoarder but I am psychologically disabled. I literally can't clean my house. Would you be willing to guide me to any resource that could help me tackle this? I have been so ashamed that I haven't realized before that it's okay to ask for help. I am not able to pay for services but once my home is clean and safe, I would be volunteer. One day, I will have resources I can use to give back. I need help. I need it more than I need to hide my secret any more.

love to you,
Hops

[Gaining Strength]

That's a great suggestion Hops.  The big problem is that I can't qualify for help because I am behind in filing my taxes.  It is such a huge snowball.  There is so much more mess all knotted in.  It is just a huge mess.  I am working towards a solution but it often feels like a chicken or the egg / double-bind.  So i just keep me head believing that there is a way out - however slow. 

But it is a great help to be able to have a place to write about it all.  It helps me feel connected to the human race