survival mechanisms - and letting them go

[wondering]

One thing I want to point out is the irony of the complaint about interrupting someone being made by a person who is a narcissist.  I point this out because I want others to be aware that not all complaints are valid.

Think about when you find yourself interrupting someone while speaking.  Does this only happen with certain individuals?  If so, are they the ones who talk AT you, feel only what they say is important, or go on and on?  

In other words, perhaps THEY are not very good at communicating OR the way they communicate is similar to how the "Ns" in your life did.  Maybe their air of superiority irritates you and causes you to be more aggressive or nervous.  

In other words, be gentle with yourself.  Do not automatically blame yourself.  It takes two or more to have a conversation and there is no "perfect" number of words or manner of speaking.  

I have one dear friend who lives in Australia and when we discuss ideas we interrupt each other and we ENJOY the way we communicate.  She finds slower talkers boring and actually enjoys me just the way I am.  That makes her a joy for me to be around.

There is no one "right" way to be.

[mighty mouse]

Wondering asked:

At some point isn't it best to just forgive them for our own sake? Holding on to resentment and anger only hurts us. Resolution is not possible because they aren't healthy enough to resolve anything.

I think this has been hit upon before here. But I prefer the word acceptance over forgive or resolve. I do accept that my Nmother doesn't love me. I accept that she has and always will say stuff to alienate me. I accept that she will not change ever.

People are usually hurt when expectation doesn't meet reality. You would expect that your parent would love you and not say and do things to hurt you. Accepting that that is indeed the case, it is a big pill to swallow and takes a long process to ...well, process.

I don't see myself forgiving my mother. But I no longer hold on to resentment. I don't know if these people choose this or not. I'm not a pyschologist or mental health person and I don't know if even they are sure about this. All I know is that I must protect myself. Some people regardless of a personality disorder, mental disorder or just evil and destructive are best avoided. That's just reality for me. Sad, but true.

MM

[les]

Whew! That's more like it!  Sometimes the depth of honesty here, the bravery, just opens up new places in me.

Wondering said: "Conversation was a battle."  Absolutely.  I still feel like I'm in a trench with bullets whizzing overhead constantly!  If I pop up for air or to make a comment -Zing! so down I go.  So my survival strategy has been, duck and cover. And don't bother to say a word. It's just becomes a target.

However, I am changing this. Just on the topic of conversation battles - my 2 daughters used to fight like crazy. Then they learned some techniques at school.  One was "I " messages. ie. 'I feel very hurt when you ....." instead of "wtf you are such a !!**  So it works even with kids.  Geez, I just realized once again how much like a child NM is. At 91 she's still into name calling.  Not so long ago she called me a "Limp Wimp." Well, she had a point of course! But  that was pre-board. I'm learning to speak clearly, firmly, and in full sentences for the first time!  Like Only Me I assume I have a 2 second window.  (pops up from trench... "hold your fire!"... pops down again - little Goon's moment there)

Les

[mighty mouse]

Batten down the hatches.....damn the torpedoes. Geeze, this military talks has got me feisty, Les.

MM

[Anonymous]

Ellie - not logged in.....

Wondering said:

I know it is difficult getting through all the pain and anger. One thing we must understand is that the "Ns" in our life are the way they are because of how the "Ns" in their life raised them.

They also are doing the best they can. They honestly cannot do any better because they are so damaged that it appears they cannot even ADMIT or SEE what they are doing.

Would anyone really consciously CHOOSE to be the way they are? At some point isn't it best to just forgive them for our own sake? Holding on to resentment and anger only hurts us. Resolution is not possible because they aren't healthy enough to resolve anything.

My only comment to that statement is:
Why should we be expected to forgive them because they suffered pain while growing up when they will not respond to our cries for help?

How can it possibly be that we should be better able to cope with mistreatment than they were? After all they are our parents, they taught us to be mean by their own actions and words. When we tell them over and over again that they are hurting us, and they refuse to listen, why should we consider forgiving them?

Some might say "Because we know what they are..." but they for the most part know what they are also. They are just too high and mighty, mean and angry, selfish and self-absorbed to give a second of themselves to anyone else. They refuse to love anyone for fear it might take some of their love away from them. They want it all!

No, I don't think the excuse can be made that they suffered, therefore we must suffer, then rise above them and forgive them. No, my Nparents want me to suffer way too much for me to consider forgiveness. They hate me because I am alive and they cannot own me.

I will not hate them back and live in their dungeon of self-righteousness. I will make my life better for the sake of those who care about me. I will rise above the pain and suffering they brought into my world. But I will not take any responsibility for their continuing to suffer.

Saying:

They also are doing the best they can. They honestly cannot do any better because they are so damaged that it appears they cannot even ADMIT or SEE what they are doing.

to me implies that if we do not forgive them we have the ability to make their life worse.

I'm sorry for debating this issue if it offends anyone but I have evil people in my family. I love to love and be happy and enjoy life. These people have attempted and sometimes succeeded in destroying anything happy in my life.

They do not deserve the moments I spend thinking about how much they disgust me.

[wondering]

I am thankful that for whatever reason we have realized, become aware, and are capable of change.  

I am sorry that those with NPD seem unable to even admit or acknowledge what they are doing and have done and therefore are probably incapable of change.  

I do not believe that it will make much difference in THEIR lives what others choose to do or not do because they are so self-absorbed it makes little impact.

I do believe that how WE either do or do not give them our time and attention impacts our OWN lives.  

"There but by the grace of God go I..."

[Anonymous]

I do believe that how WE either do or do not give them our time and attention impacts our OWN lives.  

"There but by the grace of God go I..."

Very bold statement.  Very true.  And if we have the courage to accept it, very "freeing."

findingme as guest[/quote]

[Wildflower]

There are some really great points here, Ellie and wondering.

How can it possibly be that we should be better able to cope with mistreatment than they were?

I completely agree.  We're their children, so what's their excuse?  If we can get better, so can they.  I believe that if my parents had the courage to face themselves and make positive changes in their lives, they'd be able to get better.  Yes, it hurts like heck to realize what you've done sometimes, but it just has to be done.  I'm convinced that's what keeps an N from healing.  They just can't handle facing the pain of what they've done, so they have to construct a reality in which they're above reproach.  

I will not hate them back and live in their dungeon of self-righteousness. I will make my life better for the sake of those who care about me. I will rise above the pain and suffering they brought into my world. But I will not take any responsibility for their continuing to suffer.

This is really well put.  I think what prevents me from forgiving them is that by doing so, I end up feeling like the parent again.  Maybe that's not what forgiveness is about, but I don't think I'll really be able to forgive them until they act like the adults they are and recognize that it's not my job to take care of them or even help them become better people.  That was what they were supposed to do for me.  I no longer want or expect them to make up for lost time and take care of me because I don't really need them to anymore.  I just expect them to take care of themselves and learn to stop treating people in hurtful ways.  How can I honestly forgive them if I know they're going to continue their hurtful behavior?

I do not believe that it will make much difference in THEIR lives what others choose to do or not do because they are so self-absorbed it makes little impact.

I do believe that how WE either do or do not give them our time and attention impacts our OWN lives.

This is so true.  This is why it's about changing OUR lives instead of theirs.  When I'm around them, I try not to change to suit their behavior.  It's a lot like the point made on another thread about being firm and clear.  I try to treat them as I would any other adult, and if they choose not to respond as adults, there's nothing I can do about that.  If at some point they decide to step up and act like adults, then I think it'll be easier for me to move forward with them than if I'd continually fought with them and tried to get through.

Treating them like adults and not really caring if they choose not to take care of themselves is as close as I can get to forgiveness right now.  I'd much rather spend my time and energy learning how to be a better adult in my own life.

Wildflower

[Ellie]

I remember talking to Nparents this summer - last conversation we had - and Nmom saying I was acting like a little child because I was admitting the truth for the first time in my life. She was SO unable to handle the truth that her self-defense was to accuse me of acting like a kid and refusing to grow up.

Ironically, I was being adult enough to face the truth and tell thm I didn't want to live a lie anymore. I was admitting to a lifestyle they detest - partying, having fun, laughing, loving life. I always hid everything from them so I would not be in their bad graces. After 45 years I realized I couldn't continue to be one person to them, another to the rest of the world anmd no matter what I did, I would never be in their good graces.

But Nmom was so upset that I had the guts to admit that I lived differently knowing she would be upset, that she just accused me of being the immature one.

When I reminded her I was 45 she said I sure didn't know how to act 45, admitting to smoking and drinking alcohol. Wow, I did this stuff as a teen, and that was immature. Now I'm an adult and old enough to make my own choices and she calls me an immature kid.

What survival mechanisms can one use against this insamity?

[Anonymous]

How can one survive their insanity?

By letting them have their 'truth'.

Alcohol, smoking, partying is childish.

Their opinion, their truth.

Is it your truth also???????

If it is then you'll feel bad

If it isn't then you can live the life you want - alcohol, smoking, partying til you're 92.

Are you having fun and living life or are you being childish?

Choose your truth then live your truth.  They won't embrace yours and you don't want to embrace theirs.  That's the end point of true psychological separation.

[bunny]

They also are doing the best they can. They honestly cannot do any better because they are so damaged that it appears they cannot even ADMIT or SEE what they are doing.

to me implies that if we do not forgive them we have the ability to make their life worse.

to me it means these people have severe problems and it's futile to keep hoping they will get better. That's all I read into it....

bunny

[bunny]

When I reminded her I was 45 she said I sure didn't know how to act 45, admitting to smoking and drinking alcohol. Wow, I did this stuff as a teen, and that was immature. Now I'm an adult and old enough to make my own choices and she calls me an immature kid.

What survival mechanisms can one use against this insanity?

My survival mechanism is to give my parents minimal access to my personal life, since they are very disapproving and critical. They know what I want them to know.

bunny

[wondering]

I completely agree. We're their children, so what's their excuse? If we can get better, so can they.  

I don't know what the difference is; only that there appears to be one.  Perhaps the world has changed significantly; perhaps we made different decisions earlier and they are further down the road to denial.  

Whatever the reason I just feel it is better to accept that we can only change ourselves and to release any expectations attached to the behaviors of others.

I believe that if my parents had the courage to face themselves and make positive changes in their lives, they'd be able to get better.

I agree that if they could "hear" how their behavior affects others and cared they could change.  From all I've seen they are too set in their beliefs and refuse any input that contradicts what they WANT to believe.  

It is a lot like trying to discuss politics, religion, or any other emotional issue.  Many have already decided what they want to believe and will not only not debate but will not even consider any evidence that could affect that belief.

Yes, it hurts like heck to realize what you've done sometimes, but it just has to be done. I'm convinced that's what keeps an N from healing. They just can't handle facing the pain of what they've done, so they have to construct a reality in which they're above reproach.

Are you sure they would feel any pain?  From what I can tell because they have no empathy they don't seem to have any remorse or guilt at all.  If they did at least some of them would at least stop doing what they're doing even if they would never admit what they had already done.

It appears to me that they are missing a sense of right and wrong for themselves - that they truly believe in their double standard of entitlement and judgement of others.

[Discounted Girl]

I have really been jolted into recognition here about this "hyper-interrupting" business. I have a few obsessive compulsive quirks (like checking the stove 2 or 3 times and the iron and the coffee pot) but nothing that I thought was enough to worry over. I do remember that when I was about 10 I used to have to do things in multiples of 5's -- I remember trying to stop but, if no one was looking, I did it anyway. I stopped doing that though when I learned to type.    Stop laughing, I learned to type and then sometimes I would type in my mind or like a mime with my toes, somehow it felt calming to do that. Okay, now I am a certified fruit cake -- haha. I will worry about it when I go around squinting one eye and yelling "Aargggh maties, I yam wot I yam." Makes no matter -- after what most of us have been through we are lucky to not be drooling in a home somewhere. I have this interruption problem though, and I was totally shocked to see so many postings about it.  It's not a "butt-in cause what you have to say is not important" thing -- it's a hurried interjection that feels like I have to hurry and do it before the window of opportunity closes. I don't like it when it happens, but it is a very poweful urge. I also have noticed that others don't seem to mind when I do that, which also surprises me. Maybe I don't do it as often as I think.

[Ellie]

Guest said:

How can one survive their insanity?

By letting them have their 'truth'.

Alcohol, smoking, partying is childish.

Their opinion, their truth.

Is it your truth also???????

If it is then you'll feel bad

If it isn't then you can live the life you want - alcohol, smoking, partying til you're 92.

Are you having fun and living life or are you being childish?

Choose your truth then live your truth. They won't embrace yours and you don't want to embrace theirs. That's the end point of true psychological separation.

Hi guest,
I'm having a hard time with this response. I guess I feel like it was a slap to my face, but I don't think it was meant that way, not sure.

I read this as telling me to stop listening to them. Guess what - that is why I'm here. I have these voices telling me everyday that everything I think and do is wrong! So I'm trying to get the voices out by talking about them. Never have I read so many posts from folks who have experienced like circumstances. Talking about it helps so much.

But reading something that hurtful - assuming we are just to read a response and BINGO - we are HEALED is not the way it happens.

Were you attempting to be sarcastic and hurtful or is this just the way you respond to everyone?

Maybe I phrased the question wrong - how can we survive OUR insanity created by our Ns? The question was more of a statement - we will never get the voices to go away - we just talk about them and learn that they are no longer as damaging as before. Each day gets a little easier to handle.

By the way, this is very painful for me because over the past 6 months I have lost all of my family - mom, dad, and sisters and their kids. There is no relationshpip with the family anymore. I accept this but it is hard to live. I am an orphan - I have a right to talk it out. This is the healing I am experiencing.

I have a right to discuss my hurts regarding my family. They no longer control what comes out of my mouth. They can no longer silence me and hide their destruction!