Author Topic: I think I figured something out  (Read 3088 times)

Worn

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I think I figured something out
« on: May 04, 2010, 06:13:09 PM »
Talking with my T, journaling and paying attention to emotional reactions for the past few weeks...I think I've figured something out. 
That from a very early age, probably infancy, I was taught that I was not to ask for anything.

I was 'the perfect baby'.  I hardly cried, you could take me anywhere.  This comes from several people in my family.  My sister remembers giving me my bathes and I would
entertain myself the whole time.  Nm brags about how she could take me shopping for hours and I'd just sit happily in my stroller.

Somewhere, somehow I was taught not to bother people.  That I'm not important enough to ask for things.  That people will be mad if I bother them. 
That I will be punished for asking.  That I'm not allowed to ask for comfort.  That I am not given comfort.  That I am not listened too. 

Intellectually I know this isn't true.  But the emotional belief of this runs so deep. 

Still processing, Worn
You live and learn. At any rate you live.  Douglas Adams

Portia

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 08:10:38 PM »
This sounds familiar Worn. Except I don't know what I was like. I think the family that knew me at the time - mostly dead now - were ashamed of me, or treated me as a 'special' case because of my situation. So maybe i got special attention because I was unwanted; or treated as though I might screw up at any moment. Defective. I only see this now. As for the primary caretakers, they mostly took no interest in me.  I just didn't trust them so that's the reason (I think) I didn't bother them. I didn't ask for anything because that would be a basis for manipulation on their part (children know this!).  But: then I remember things like: I wanted a particular game and they got it for me - ...not true. What I remember is wanting it badly and not getting it. But the facts are otherwise. i saw the game many years ago  and was shocked. I couldn't remember receiving it. In my mind, they never got it for me. And yet there it was. Maybe I'd got over wanting it before they bought it. Maybe it was just rubbish. maybe it's not about the game at all. This sounds exceptionally trite to me, but hey. Who knows.

Logy

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 10:08:21 PM »
Worn,
I think I understand.  Your comments made me analyze my infancy and childhood.  Again.  (Though I have been doing this for several years, sometimes I just need to look at it again based on comments like yours.  And look at it from a different way.)

NM has never told me what I was like as an infant.  Whenever she discusses it, she talks about how tired she was, how hard it was for her in the hospital when I was born, how the doctors and nurses didn't take care of her, ignored her.  How her mother wasn't there.  How Dad was in the Army and couldn't get to her side right away.  So I really don't know.  I don't know what she thought when she first saw me.  I don't know if I cried, if I had any infant illnesses.  No pictures of me before age 2.  When GC brother was born.  Then there are movie pictures of him as an infant, sitting next to me on the sofa.  It was very obvious someone was coaching me to kiss him because I am looking at the camera, then give him a kiss and look back at the camera.  "Was that right?  Did I do it ok?"

What I do know is that I was taught to never bother people with my needs.  My needs were selfish.  When I expressed my feeling about something I was ALWAYS ridiculed.  How dare you have needs!  So I have spent a lifetime being a pleaser, anticipating others needs since they are always so much more important than mine.

The only story NM has ever told that has to do with me as a young child is the time she was pregnant with my brother.  I was two years old.  She was SO tired and took a nap.  When she woke up she couldn't find me.  She looked all over.  Found me asleep in the closet.  I have a hard time thinking that a two year would hide in a closet.  Why wouldn't she lay with mom, go to her own bed, or lay on the floor next to mom?

Wow, I have alot of other images from my childhood.  I'll wait for another time to talk about them.

Sealynx

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 10:16:19 PM »
I have a very similar background and I will interact with objects in the environment before engaging people..just like I did as a child. I once read that this behavior is common in children with attachment disorders caused by their mother's never responding to their cries or needs. After a while you don't expect them to come and learn to entertain yourself without people.

CB123

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 10:20:26 PM »
Hi all,

Can I just say--be careful with assigning thoughts and feelings to yourself as an infant or toddler?  It is very very hard to know what you were thinking then...it is much more likely to take interpretations from now and impose them on that tiny little brain.

Not to say that you werent ignored, or expected to be older than your years, or to never express your needs.  That very well could have happened...but I am just thinking of the needless pain you impose on yourselves when you imagine yourself falling asleep alone and exhausted in a closet, for example.  Kids are funny little creatures...they have delightful ideas about where it would be fun to sleep, or eat, or pee.  It's true...

Anyway, I dont want to take away from the soul searching you all are doing here...and, btw, I was one of those kids who was expected to have no problems and to never ask for anything...and I learned it so well  :?.

Love
CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Logy

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 10:57:50 PM »
Sealynx,

Sounds like my childhood.  I spent most of my time alone in my room.  NM always commented that I would spend hours alone as a child.  I have always been a loner.  Wish I knew if that was because that is who I am or because I had to entertain myself since I had no one who responded to me.  I am very good at entertaining myself still.  I do have very fond memories of my maternal grandmother.  She is the only adult that I remember treating me well as a child.  But she was also a pained soul.  My grandfather abused her and my NM abused her.

CB, I appreciate your word of caution.  Yes, I have no idea what my thoughts were.  I guess I am just going with what I felt as I got older.  Does the one example give me a hint of a bigger picture?  It might not.  But if I do not see more examples of the opposite, where I felt enveloped by a person or couple who included me in a circle of love, my tendency is to interpret that as just another example of being ignored.

Worn

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2010, 12:04:06 PM »
Portia, I know for sure in later childhood I didn't trust my pc's.  I remember at about 4 or 5 knowing that I would get a negative reaction if I made a claim for any kind of attention.  One of the things I used to get in trouble for on a regular basis is asking if we could get stuff at the grocery store.  And I mean JUST asking.  There was no tantrum or pouting fit.  I was just excited by all the things on the shelves and would ask if we could get this or that. 

Logy, I've always been a loner also.  I don't know either if this is my natural personality or not.  I have so many hangups with interacting with people.  I just kind of go fuzzy headed.  Working on this and getting better at it, but it is a legacy I carry.

Sealynx, yep, i will interact with objects first also.  Always have.  Too much anxiety in interacting with people. 

Thank you CB for the words of caution and support.  I will keep them in mind.  :)

Wanted to explain a little where this came from.  I've been going to a T on and off since I was 18.  I have experienced high levels of anxiety every time I go.  I thought this was the taboo of talking about the FOO.  I realized yesterday that it's more than that.  That I am breaking the rules taught to me at an early age. 

I mentioned to my T that I would start feeling anxiety the night before a T session and I always have.  She asked me if there was anything she could do to make me more comfortable coming there.  Her asking that made me feel more anxious.  My old belief system is that I have no right to be a burden, inconvenience in any way.  That I have no right for others to go out of their way for me. 

When I go to a T session I am asking to be listened too.  I am asking for attention to be paid to me.  I am asking for comfort.  All these things were forbidden to me. 

I explained to my last T that talking about my FOO and about my pain felt as foreign and abhorrent to me as if I had suddenly taken up cannibalism.  I don't really have trouble talking about nm though.  She is a piece of work and I've been talking about her for awhile now. :roll:  The good mother taboo is not really my problem I think.  Still trying to figure this out.
Worn
You live and learn. At any rate you live.  Douglas Adams

Portia

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 06:52:45 PM »
Worn, I worked out my pc's around age 5, I guess I behaved in certain ways in order to survive. I guess we're supposed to not cause any trouble, be entertaining when required, be used as objects to be shown off but carefully, so that any kudos goes to them, lest we get above ourselves or worse, get attention....oh maybe that's just me. I very much doubt it.

I daren't be weak. If I'm weak, I'm dead. What's weak? Having any needs whatsoever perhaps, beyond food and water. I think there are lots of people like me. They just don't know it. Probably lots of them are violent, addicted, sex workers, or dead (or a combo), altho it's not that simple of course. I do have needs but they feel foreign to me.I don't likebeing weak and even writing this is starting to irritate me enormously. Actually i think I'm being something like a performing seal here,writing this.

Logy

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2010, 10:18:05 PM »
Worn, Portia,
I have always felt I am a burden to others.  It didn't matter who they were.  My boss, my friend, my therapist, the person I pass in the grocery, the person who is driving the car behind me, my daughter.  If I didn't feel that way, then the only other choice for me was to act like NM.  That just felt too painful, too evil.  I chose to wilt, to suffer that pain rather than to be the person who was my role model.  My mother.
I was so confused.  "Children are wonderful.  Children are a burden.  Be independent.  Don't leave me.  Get married.  Men are horrible.  Have a career.  Stay home.  You can do whatever you want.  You are a failure."
Ha!  Even now I wonder "what is the right thing to say now?"  People here will think I am just pitiful.  Another burden.  No one wants to spend their valuable time listening to what I have to say.

Lucky

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2010, 07:01:38 AM »
Worn you experience sounds like mine, I was most of the time being low profile. Always afraid to annoy my mother.

Portia

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2010, 10:06:42 AM »
Dear Logy

I find swearing quite a lot can help enormously. Not 'at' anyone, just some well-chosen descriptives about any given situation. Such as the words I used privately today to describe my incredibly stupid, manipulative local administrative authority. They have screwed up big time to the tune of $50,000 and I could easily cost them that unless i choose to be 'reasonable', which I will choose to be. It's tempting not to be reasonable though, just for the hell of it. Especially when people in jobs start from the premise that all members of the general public are unintelligent and easily swayed <oh dear>.

Swearing can be good. What might you say?

Gaining Strength

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2010, 10:07:58 AM »
Connecting with what has been written here.
Very, very painful to read.

I recall being overtly taught not to ask for anything.
This has become clearly a part of my struggle because the outcome was to live passively waiting for the good stuff to magically fall from the sky. Going to get the good stuff still causes me panic - flips the You don't deserve - button which in turn triggers anger, frustration and shut down.

Portia

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2010, 10:11:50 AM »
GS,

what is good stuff?

Worn

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2010, 01:35:05 PM »
Portia, 'If I'm weak, I'm dead. What's weak? Having any needs whatsoever perhaps, beyond food and water.'    I feel like I've been at war with nm since I was very little.  I think part of that war was the battle for me to exist.  My last T told me at one point that it was ok now to lay my weapons down.  But how hard is that!  I was born in battle and lived it every day of my life.  How can I trust now to leave behind my defenses.  I think that's an answer I need to figure out though.  Makes me think of the Spartan boys trained in war from an early age.  Left to fend for themselves in the wilderness.  Some survived, some didn't. 

And the swearing thing, love it!  I have a bit of a mouth on me, at appropriate times, and I use it to get the anger and frustration I feel, right then, out.  Instead of letting it build up.  If I can't swear right then I will do it later, alone or with a sympathetic friend.  Heheh, I like swearing lol.

Logy, so there has to be an alternative to feeling like a burden or being like nm, right?  That the space we reside in is ours and we are entitled to it.  That we can have needs and wants.  That we can ask others for those and not feel like a burden.  I don't know how to do it, but I think 'normies' do it all the time, yes?  Thank you for your insight.  I hadn't thought of it in terms of me acting like nm or withdrawing, but I think you've hit on something there.

GS, "Going to get the good stuff still causes me panic - flips the You don't deserve - button which in turn triggers anger, frustration and shut down."  Yes, exactly!  So how do I disconnect that button?  Practice and self affirmation perhaps.  Reminding myself that that is a dysfunctional button and is no longer useful to me.  Don't know, but I'm gonna try.

So I want to practice asking for what I need.  I think one place I can do this is with my T.  Also I can do this with myself.  I tried last night a little bit.  I thought to myself, what do I need in my life right now.  My immediate internal response was, 'well you need to get off your lazy butt and go get some exercise.'  I stopped myself right there.  Remembered that there was no 'need to' in my question, just need.  So I thought what was behind my above response that I could think of something that I needed.  And I thought, 'I need my health.'  There was no blame in this statement, unlike the other one.  Because there was no blame there was no shame.  I DO need my health. 

It also changed how I reacted to this.  It was very subtle but I didn't feel the anxiety behind knowing that I need something and what I need to do to get that. 

So much to think about.  Worn
You live and learn. At any rate you live.  Douglas Adams

Gaining Strength

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Re: I think I figured something out
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2010, 03:15:27 PM »
The good stuff is all that you as a person need to be happy - a job that brings a sufficient income and personal satisfaction, a home that is comfortable and enough space and amenties to comfort and friends and a social life and all those good things.

I am determined to overwrite the wrong messages by writing the good stuff over and over and over until it takes the place of the bad.