Feral Children of Narcissists??

[Gaining Strength]

Sealynx - I have come to believe that a key to this process is identifying the emotion attached to memories.  In the two nursery school memories that you write about can you remember what emotion you felt?  When that toy was taken away - how did you feel?  When you tried to intervene in that fight, how did that feel and how did it feel when you were sent to the corner as a punishment for your kindness?  Do you know how you felt?

[Sealynx]

Yes, GS. I do remember. In all cases it was a feeling of resignation. Perhaps more telling was something that happened that ended my time at nursery school. I used to love to swing really high (perhaps providing the pleasurable stimulation that was missing in my life?). I fell off the swing one day on the playground and badly skinned my thigh. I did not cry or seek help and no one saw me fall because I got right up as if nothing had happened. My first feeling was not concern for my injury which I hoped would just go away, but fear of what my mother would do when she saw it. I told no one and did not cry. Of course my mother saw it when I got home, threw a fit and removed me from school. Even though I was very bright, the world didn't make great sense to me back then, probably because of my mothers sudden rages. My only defense was to hide things.

As I grew older this became my mother's favorite criticism of me, that I was too passive and didn't stand up for myself. That very physical feeling of resignation still attacks me when I sense something going wrong in a relationship. My body wants to give up immediately and save face in what it suddenly "feels" is a hopeless situation. I don't think we can separate the mind/body connection.

[CB123]

I get it, Sealynx.  I hadnt understood completely what you were saying.

I find that I dont look forward to being with a lot of people either but it doesnt really upset me that I dont.  Does it bother you to not enjoy or look forward to that the way you see other people doing?  Is it kinda like you wish you were different, but you dont know how? 

This is a very good topic with a lot of possibiilties.

CB

[Sealynx]

Exactly CB,
I wish that the thought of being with people filled me with the same contentment I feel at waking up to my pets in the morning. I don't ask to be exuberant with everyone just what I think may be the way someone with a better maternal response is able to feel. I know I missing a level of feeling in-between madly in love and indifferent (or perhaps resigned?).

If my theory is correct it also brings into question the value of dwelling on early negative patterns. I think it is important to consider what happened but I don't personally see the value in extensively reliving the emotions related to those feelings...after all, they are with me every time I meet people. If my theory is correct, the best fix for this (if one can be had) might be something similar to what is used with a person who has anxiety reactions to bugs or  spiders. Building short positive experiences with the phobia rather than dwelling on how scared I am. The problem here is that bugs and spiders are easy to come by and practice with in controlled situations, people are not and part of the problem is an inability to attract the people in the first place.

[Logy]

Helen, your comment -  "I would bet that children who always had a pet did learn nurturing, eye contact, empathy, intuition and a host of other relational skills from the pet. This did not stop the brain from labeling social interaction with people as a cause for either no endorphins or added adrenal secretions because it was unrelated. So the skill set is there to relate to people, but the reward isn't."

I do agree.  I do have the skill set to interact with people but don't feel that reward and peace that I feel when I interact with animals.  I have always had a pet (from age 2 on).  I always felt rewarded and acknowledged when I reached out to them.  No matter what the reaction - a tail twitch, eye contact, coming over to me, rubbing up against me.  Of course, people do interact with me when I approach them.  But I don't feel the "ah, I'm happy" feeling I get with animals.

I remember when I was about 8 years old telling NM that I was never going to have children, just lots of animals.  The message given to me as a child was that children were a burden.  What is interesting to me is to watch old home movies - and specifically after my brother was born.  NM doted on him, made eye contact, played with him, while I stood in the background or by the side.  NM never looked at me.  The only time I ever received any attention from her was when I was paying attention to brother.  And as a child and an adult, brother is a social butterfly.

[Gaining Strength]

Sealynx, could it be that heavy sadness and hopelessness are underneath that resignation?

[Sealynx]

Gs,
 I don't think the underlying emotion is what is important, if I'm right only its biochemistry remains embedded in the brain.. Whether it was hopelessness, sadness, anger or something else, if my brain was trained to respond to interpersonal encounters by producing the chemicals related to one of those feeling AND this occurred at a neurologically vulnerable time, when my brain was (like the speech example) imprinting relational responses, then I may well produce those chemicals in response to thoughts of being with people even today.

GS and All,
Hopelessness is a good example. Say the underlying chemical feed to me is hopelessness. When I approach others, no matter how lonely I am, my biochemistry produces some approximation of the the physical feeling of hopelessness that I must resist and overcome. It doesn't matter if I understand that I had a reason to feel hopeless and everything is fine now because it is not an intellectual response, it is a neurological response that may be reflexive in nature.

If the other person who meets me was at that same critical time treated to loving touch and a responsive environment, they will likely feel hopeful about the encounter and expect that it might contain a cocktail of relationship maintaining opiates that allow it to grow. No, they don't think that, they just expect to feel good while talking to someone new.

Therein may lie another interesting thought. It isn't just the approach that generates positive brain chemicals in children who were responded to in a positive way...It is likely that there are relationship maintaining chemicals that keep them engaged. How did their biochemistry change after being held for 5 minutes? 15? After feeling safe enough to fall asleep???

Since we were never engaged by our mothers what we know biochemically is likely to be something like bad feeling chemical followed by cut off.  In other words our brains may not have been trained to continue responding and we find ourselves hard pressed to build on the initial encounter. Biochemically we may not have a relationship path other than to skip up to sexuality.

Certainly we all wouldn't have the same kind of responses here as not all of us were limited to one caregiver in childhood.

So...even though I can give a list of things I felt as a child and have come to terms with my crazy mother, and don't feel depressed or angry...I have yet to change the chemicals that flow out of my head when I meet someone, because those chemical may be set for life.

If something else, like a hobby or sex keeps me attached to the person and I have enough fun with them, I can probably increase the positive flow of anticipatory chemicals for that person and form a relationship with them... But the question may be...will they feel my lack of initial engagement, sense that I am not acting like our initial engagement is building and walk off before I have a chance to do all that???

[Logy]

"Biochemically we may not have a relationship path other than to skip up to sexuality. "  Interesting comment - hit a nerve for me.  From age 13 until I was in my thirties, the only way I felt connected to another human was through sex. 

I may have missed a point in previous comments but..............Sealynx, can you explain further?

Logy

[Sealynx]

Logy,
I think sex is a good example. We think that our partner is responsible for orgasm, but actually our brain is responsible for orgasm. If we are not particularly motivated to have sex, our partner can do exactly the same thing they would when we are "in the mood" and nothing big happens for us.
Here is an interesting reply on a site run by Columbia University about the uses of sex...

http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/0483.html

In the above, a student asks if too much masturbation is bad and the answer talks about how the endorphins released can be addictive if sex is used to relieve depression rather than for pure enjoyment. It also talks about how laughter and other things release endorphins.

As we know, sexual feelings BUILD to orgasm, we don't just join some parts and instantly have the big one (as some men are prone to believe!). I couldn't find a link to it but I believe that in one of Dr. Christiane Northrups books (famous gynecologist) she talks about the different chemicals the brain puts out to SUSTAIN our interest during sex.

So back to the idea of endorphins maintaining and building on an experience. Since the increasing rush of endorphins leads to orgasm, could something similar be happening when people have an enjoyable conversation with each other. Certainly they don't at some point fall down writhing in ecstasy but if you look at the example I used in another post of the mother and baby, their brains have probably been trained to prolong pleasurable contact with another by making them feel better and better.

 So if the first part of a conversation goes well (for a person with positive parenting history) then those chemicals that allowed the baby to relax in mother's arms kick in and build an increasing sense of comfort and security. If I'm right, we start out having to overcome the negative chemical related to our early imprinting and then have to literally jump start the happy part of our brain and keep it happy until something about the other person strongly interests us. Many of us probably lack the ability to look forward to being with another human automatically and we don't necessarily move naturally toward greater engagement because we never went there in infancy and don't have that brain pattern. It is all about the pattern in our brain.

So if this is true...what can we do about it...I'm thinking on that one.

[sKePTiKal]

Hi Sealynx - I've been reading & pondering - this is an excellent topic! One thing stood out to me:

I don't think we can separate the mind/body connection.

Well, yeah - there are so many connections, conscious & unconscious between the mind & body that it appears futile to even think about it. However, it IS possible to watch, observe, & study those connections - and also learn where the "switches" are that generate our ingrained mental, emotional, relational "habits". After learning where those switches are, it is also possible to intervene in reflex flips of the switch... to whatever our "pattern"is. (I'm sort of reminding myself of this too, as I'm explaining...)

This kind of observation is best learned through a physical activity that requires proprieception (awareness of the body) like yoga or tai chi. I'm sure those aren't the only ways... but I do know this HELPS. Even in relating to, interacting with, other people.

Your original post really connected with me. It's something I've thought a lot about - repeatedly - and have no hard/fast answers. The idea that because of flawed attachment to mother.... we never learned certain social cues or skills, that affect our present lives in ways we'd change - if only we knew how to re-wire our brains. Well - we can rewire our brains, however the process isn't magical, easy, or quick. Just like stroke victims can re-establish neural pathways and recover speech, the use of an arm or a leg - with enough practice.

Logically, one would ask: if you've never experienced that feeling of peace, connection, or "being with" someone - how do you know when you "get there"?  Sometimes - you don't - until reflecting on the experience later. But when you're aware of it in the moment - you just "know". It's all part of the learning & rewiring process.

And the question of "is this (connecting with others) important"? winds up being one of personal preference. Some people like being connected to lots of people, being very busy socially, having their phone ring constantly with another friend... some of us actually DO LIKE and even NEED more solitude than that... and that's OK, too. My "processing" brain gets overloaded & overwhelmed when in a large group of people... so even though I would like to be more comfortable in groups and continue to try different things to "make it so"... I also know I'm allowed to ask for and maintain my restorative "cone of solitude" until I get myself recentered.

I'm wondering if there's another question behind the question you asked?? Like maybe you're really asking if it's "OK" to be a hermit?  Or deciding how important those connections are to you....

  Anyway there is a ton of food for thought in this thread and it's sounds like it might be a relief to put it out here for you. Your posts always get me thinking about things, sometimes from a whole different angle.

[Sealynx]

However, it IS possible to watch, observe, & study those connections - and also learn where the "switches" are that generate our ingrained mental, emotional, relational "habits". After learning where those switches are, it is also possible to intervene in reflex flips of the switch... to whatever our "pattern"is. (I'm sort of reminding myself of this too, as I'm explaining...)

Yes but look at all we have to do in order to do that. And I have found that recognizing the pattern and knowing what the switch is aren't that helpful. The switch is encountering another person. Perhaps practicing Yoga every day and upping my meditation sessions to four hours a day would put me in a state of eternal bliss where I would love everyone...but then I wouldn't have time to go out and when I found my endorphins running out while the other person seems to be becoming more engaged I couldn't stop and do a quick lotus position!!!

Let's take a quick look at what we know about a real disorder involving the inability to form close personal relationships. Granted this  is much more severe than we are dealing with here but the suggestion that something that goes wrong in childhood may not be repaired later is there....

Here is a quote from the Mayo Clinics info on Schizotypal personality disorder, which is an extreme form of interpersonal dysfunction..

Definition
By Mayo Clinic staff

Schizotypal personality disorder is a serious condition in which a person usually has few to no intimate relationships. These people tend to turn inward rather than interact with others, and experience extreme anxiety in social situations.

People with schizotypal personality disorder often have trouble engaging with others and appear emotionally distant. They find their social isolation painful, and eventually develop distorted perceptions about how interpersonal relationships form. They may also exhibit odd behaviors, respond inappropriately to social cues and hold peculiar beliefs.

Now look at what is says about treatment...

Schizotypal personality disorder typically begins in early adulthood and may endure throughout life. There's no cure for schizotypal personality disorder, but psychotherapy and some medications may help. Some research suggests that positive childhood experiences may help reduce symptoms of schizotypal personality disorder in affected young people.

Why only young people??? Could it be that at some point the brain will not let go of a relating pattern and keeps pumping those negative feelings?? Could it also be that unlike using good spiders to overcome a fear of spiders, that our limited ability to attract and keep people makes it much harder to build a neurological inventory of good associations in adulthood???

I do enjoy my time alone and don't feel the need for people very often, but I do wish I could feel their fascination with each other. I think that with enough motivation nothing is impossible but in this case we have a lot working against us. Like the child..we need to build positive associations. That means that bad relationships may damage us much more than the average person because they support our existing emotional predisposition. We may also need to avoid dwelling on those negative feelings from our past.

This brings up an interesting question about therapy. Once we know what happened and make the association between our current feelings about being with people and negative parenting...Is it good to dwell on all the pain and negative emotions which appear to be our natural inclination?  Does that just make it stronger and our attitudes more entrenched? Would it be better to engage in supportive therapy that focused on expanding the happiness in our lives as many New Age philosophies extol???

In any case I think this strongly suggests that we should work very hard to guard our brain from negative emotions and people of any kind.

 

[Portia]

Sealynx, two questions occur to me:

is there such a thing as a 'good' spider? (I think not.)

Seriously:
I do enjoy my time alone and don't feel the need for people very often, but I do wish I could feel their fascination with each other.

What is this thing that you see happening between other people, this 'fascination'? Can you describe an example of what you mean, because, I wonder if you're missing out as much as you may imagine. Because if you can see it, I would guess that you're capable of it, that you have it. On the other hand, your perception and interpretation of other people interacting may not be accurate.

Negative people can bring you down for sure. But then you get to practice running your own brain and deciding its status regardless of other people.

[Sealynx]

LOL...Sounds like you don't like our spider sisters and brothers!! Actually some cultures consider them to be lucky! Most of the ones who don't hide in the dark, or have a big red hour glass on their back are harmless.

Perhaps fascination is not the right word and it would be wrong to assume that my level of interest in this topic is equal to the amount of suffering it causes me. I'm not fascinated with my pets in the morning but the thought of being with them gives me a feeling of well-being. I automatically feel good when I think of visiting with them. It is not a huge feeling. It is a subtle comfort zone that is missing with people. I would hate to leave this life missing anything!

I also like ideas and the more I read about this one, the more it intrigues me. I learned yesterday that there is a "Reward Deficiency Syndrome". While it is related to genetic issues in children of addicts, the concept is interesting. It could be, as the Mayo Clinic data suggests, that there is a relationship between age related intervention (brain development?) and deprivation that is not related to genetics.. A lot of research into addiction suggests that addicts are seeking to avoid depression or anxiety by providing their brain with "substitute" feel good chemicals. No major studies that I can find have been done on the genetics, brain function, or addiction patterns in children of N's. There are also addictions that often are not treated, such as eating and shopping.

I've also read things on depression that suggest that the younger someone is when they suffer depressive episodes, the more likely they are to repeat. Brain patterning again?? Of course none of this is useful unless you can change it. Studies suggest that often you can't without medication. While I certainly don't advocate not taking medication if you need it or discussing feelings with a therapist...I do think all of this suggests that we take REALLY good care of our moods and avoid the people, places and things that produce depressive chemicals.. That strongly supports going NC, leaving Mr. Wrong, dissing friends who put us down and generally protecting ourselves from negative environments rather than blaming ourselves for not being able to handle them.

[sKePTiKal]

That means that bad relationships may damage us much more than the average person because they support our existing emotional predisposition.

This is a very important statement in the thesis you're developing, Sea. IMHO. In some ways, those early relationships make us more vulnerable and sensitive to later "bad" relationships. And yes, reinforcement of a belief that somehow people aren't safe or fun to be around... can get, let's say, "out of hand". The statement is important, but I can't yet place it anywhere on the "good/bad" scale... whether it's opening a possibility of shooting oneself in the foot or not.

I wouldn't go so far as to throw myself into sappy, "everybody be happy" fantasies either - because they're just as distorted, to my way of thinking, as the other extreme. But on the other hand, I've found that sometimes I've worried excessively, needlessly, and flat-out wrongly about what other people think/feel about me in relationships and their motives - what their "payoff" in the relationship is. My perception is skewed by that reinforced belief and the more I retreat into solitude and my own little bubble of existence... the more I sense I'm missing an opportunity to get out of my own boring rut.

Slowly but surely, I think I'm seeing that there simply aren't any "rules" about relationships and how they're "supposed" to be. That crap belongs to the universe of neglect/abuse between people and it frightens me, when I hear public figures start talking about making those kinds "rules" for other groups of people... I don't want to digress into that topic, though.

A couple things I'm learning at the moment about how people work together: communication - learning the language of the other and teaching the other my language opens a gate or a door between us. The opening is between our boundaries as individuals. Some people will freely pass through that opening, being self-confident, comfortable or attracted enough to enter into my shoes, my world as a visitor. Some people need an invitation - engraved, with RSVP too - before they are comfortable doing this. Some people enjoy being in another's space more; some people want to have company in their space instead.

I seldom invite people into my space. (makes for an interesting relationship with my husband!!) My fear & distrust of my own ability to tell trustworthy people from the other kind... was the ultimate reason why. Well, that's changing now. My MIL lives here full time. We are still working out routines, customs, etc. We respect each other's space, though that's becoming less formal now. I am also being visited in my new house by many people... and as hostess, feel that I am obligated to completely opening my "boundaries" to accomodate what the vistor(s) wish to do. That's uncomfortable, sometimes - but I can manage that better, for my own sanity I think; I'm still learning. Then, being in a new neighborhood, we're being invited to many more social activities than I'm accustomed to... it's a pretty social group, here and I've lived the last 30 years of my life being a hermit. I don't want to give the impression of rejecting them - sight unseen - but on the other hand, I'm very tentative and worried about my ability to relax in situations with groups of new people; I usually tend to retreat to the "tried & true" old strategies that I know are self-defeating...

... but such are the constraints placed on me by my past conditioning: that I am such an outcast, misfit, that I'm unfit to be around "normal" people and should be ashamed of myself for thinking I belong with them. At the core of my social hesitation and discomfort - that is the feeling that is controlling me - and that I'm trying to let go, outwit, trick, and work through.

[Sealynx]

PR,
As I noted to Portia, this is not about ecstasy at the thought of other people. It is more of a subtle base feeling that things will go well and spending time with people will most likely be more rewarding in a feel good sense than staying home alone. I have heard over and over on boards that the base feeling is not even a mild anticipation...more of overcoming either indifference or mild apprehension. I think is very different from what most people feel.

Good luck with those neighbors and don't hesitate to instigate a new boundary even if you tolerated the behavior yesterday. Neighbors can be difficult learning material because you often don't realize their shortcomings and the need to establish a boundary until they've trampled it. Many things you don't notice at first can become problematic. For instance I learned too late that one of my neighbors is an alcoholic and is not someone I want at my home, especially when entertaining colleagues! He helped me put up a ceiling fan when I moved in and I ended up giving him far more access to my social life than he could handle. Another neighbor was quite friendly and even introduced me to people outside the neighborhood I enjoyed meeting and have become friends with. Unfortunately she has no sense of decorum and freely disseminates information about me to relative strangers that I consider private and personal. Asking her to stop doesn't work. There is no filter between her brain and her mouth and I have seen her do the same thing to people who have emphatically asked her not to say certain things...one is even a cancer victim who doesn't want his condition known. Once gets going..she forgets!!  In general the people around me seem to enjoy getting together for alcohol every afternoon. I have nothing against alcohol but I need more emotional and intellectual engagement than it provides.

When I moved here I didn't have any support system in this new community, but neighbors aren't always the best friends. If I had to do it over again I would keep to myself and seek new associations by reaching out to people via special interest clubs or organizations.