A Bombshell

[Twoapenny]

Hi all,

I thought I would share this with you as I feel I have been given the key to the gates of freedom 

Saw my T today.  We were talking about my problems with relationships, anxiety, over-thinking blah blah blah.  She posed this question to me:

"Imagine you walk into a room with ten people in it.  These people know nothing at all about you and, before you speak or do anything, three leave because they don't like you.  Seven stay because they do.  How do you feel?"

We then had a lengthy discussion which basically revealed that, for me, not being liked is worse than death, and that I wouldn't give a moments thought to the seven people that did like me, but I would tie myself in knots finding out why three didn't, what it was about me that put them off and what I would do to try and put that right.

Then she dropped the bombshell.

"It's perfectly okay for people not to like you.  You don't have to please everyone all the time, or change to make them happy.  You are great just as you are.  You don't need to make yourself different.  Someone doesn't like you - so what?  No big deal.  It's not your job to make other people like you.  They either do or they don't.  Concentrate on the ones that do."

I feel like I have been kicked in the stomach, assaulted, turned around upside down and set free all at the same time.  I am thirty seven years old this year.  I cannot think of a single minute of my life that has not been spent making myself mould to fit someone else's ideal of what they want me to be, or ever accepting myself exactly as I am, or worrying incessantly about someone not liking me and wondering what I did to make them feel that way.  I'm in my tenth year of counselling now.  I have worked through some horrible, horrible stuff but this has shaken me to the core.  Have I really lived my whole life for other people?  Is there really nothing I have done just for me, as I am, regardless of what other people might think.  Have I ever stopped to think about how I feel about other people, rather than how they feel about me?  No!!!!!!!!!

My head is spinning.  It feels so beautifully simple yet so utterly terrifying at the same time.  Is there actually a chance that I can break free of myself and let myself be who I really am?  Aaarrgghh!!!!!!!!!  This is scary stuff!

I'd love to know your thoughts 

[JustKathy]

I have this problem. I've managed to work through it over time, but it's still there in the back of my head. When someone doesn't like me, or doesn't want to be my friend, I beat myself up over it, wondering what's wrong with me.

As I've gotten older, I've developed a thicker skin, but when I was younger I would be absolutely devastated if someone rejected me as a friend. I know it was years of my NM whittling away at my self esteem. I grew up being told that I was ugly, stupid, worthless, and that no one would ever want to be my friend. So when someone in school didn't like me, I naturally blamed myself. That kind of brainwashing is pretty hard to shake. If not for my many years in therapy, I probably would have never come to the realization that my mother did this to me, and never would have learned how to break free of those thoughts.

[Twoapenny]

Hi Kathy,

I know what you mean.  My mum lurved me - as long as I did exactly what she wanted, when she wanted and how she wanted. If I didn't she withdrew.   When I started to rebel she began to hate me with a passion and has tried repeatedly to destroy my life.  The idea that other people aren't like this is hard for me to get my head around.  The thought that other people don't need me to be incredibly sycophantic around them or that they won't try and wreck my life if I don't do what they want is very new for me 

[JustKathy]

It's so sad that many of us don't come to these realizations until we're well into adulthood. I never heard the term NPD until I was 35. I had gone to therapy before that, and had a lot of bad experiences, mainly therapists who didn't believe my stories. Then I finally found one who knew right away that my mother had a specific disorder. That's when I threw myself into books and online research, and my eyes were finally opened. But I still spent the first 15 years of adulthood thinking that I was a bad person, a loser, someone who would never have friends or never succeed at anything in life. It makes me wonder how many victims of Ns NEVER get the information they need to recover. At least learning the facts in my 30s, I was still young enough to work through the issues. I really feel for the people who never get that chance. The world must be full of children of Ns who spend their entire lives blaming themselves for everything.

[nolongeraslave]

My mom and exes used to threaten me, "Nobody will like you if you don't do _".....It's amazing how I thought nobody liking me would be the worst thing ever, so I resorted to doing these ridiculous things.

Now, when my mom pulls that trick, I just say "So what?" 

[Hopalong]

Hi Kathy,
I relate to your frustration about Neducation. There is knowledge about this PD, but it's just not widely known. There are TV shows about eating disorders, OCD, hoarding, obesity, and of course a zillion built around psychopathy and sociopathy...but the culture's just not chatting about narcissism. A few references here and there, but it's not common language as it needs to be.

I wonder if that's because the culture itself has NPD? "We" are voicehogs (entertainment and messaging driven), lack empathy (or we'd live different kinds of lives and have different priorities), think we're really special (best country, best people, best blah-blah-blah), are grandiose (we can bend the world, avoid natural consequences), etc.

I did not know what narcissism was until about age 53. It turned my world upside down and I've been rearranged ever since. I'm incredibly, incredibly grateful I found out at all.

What a different life I might've led if I'd known.

love,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hi Hops,

I think you're right, I think we do live in a very narcissistic world where focusing on the superficial and the material is actively encouraged.  I have a lot of friends who wouldn't dream of paying for a private therapist (hidden, no-one knows, what's the point) but think nothing of spending the equivalent on new clothes every month (look how good I am, how successful, how much money I've got).

I've thought more about this thing about people not liking me and I've realised it's not even about the way I feel if someone likes or dislikes me.  I think I have a deeply ingrained moral duty to ensure I do not displease anyone at any time.  I am assuming that this was just hammered in to me from a very young age by my mum and I have just carried on with it as my default setting throughout my life.  I've been thinking about every bad experience I've ever had.  All could have been prevented by me being more assertive and proactive.  I don't mean that in a way that I am beating myself up about it, but just that if my focus had ever been on me, rather than the thoughts and feelings of everyone else around me, my life would have been a whole lot easier.

I feel quite spaced out.  It's a lot to take in.  It's a volcano moment, rather than a lightbulb moment, you know?

[Hopalong]

I do.

Be very gentle with yourself.

It will sink in, you will integrate the knowledge.

And when you have had enough time with that, pretty soon instead of looking back in regret, you'll be saying to yourself, And here I am now. So what do I want to choose now?

Now will still be with you. Now is faithful.

love,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I think I have a deeply ingrained moral duty to ensure I do not displease anyone at any time.  

It's not just you Tups! I see this in institutions and politics, quite a lot - with the same kinds of results in life - affecting so many more people! - that each of us has experienced individually and personally. I believe it contributes to entropy in all of the world's essential systems... but then, I'm given to wild theories about things that are way beyond me!!

I'm happy for your earth-shattering insight and YOU! The spaciness will recede in a bit - it's a lot to adjust to, isn't it?? - and it might just help to take a deep breath & simply allow yourself to feel grateful for the surprisingly reassuring truth "everything you knew is wrong".

You DO have a right to be, take up space, and just be yourself and PEOPLE STILL LIKE YOU (like me!) - and NO, there aren't any engraved in stone rules about how to do that. I've been trying to learn this 40-50 years too late. Nothing bad will happen, if you just express your SELF... no exile, excommunication, no annilhilation, no lightning strikes... in fact, it's kinda comical to watch myself go through bits of that process... being shy, awkward & gawky... but REAL, instead of some clone of what I thought was expected of me.

This bit of the work, can actually be FUN. I'm so happy for you!!!

[JustKathy]

There are TV shows about eating disorders, OCD, hoarding, obesity, and of course a zillion built around psychopathy and sociopathy...but the culture's just not chatting about narcissism. A few references here and there, but it's not common language as it needs to be.

I've found that when the word "narcissist" gets thrown out on TV, it's almost always misinformation. A lot of people confuse the word for snobbery, which of course isn't accurate. I was watching a recent episode of Joy Behar's show, and she had some woman on who was the host of some reality show called, I think, "Millionaire Matchmaker." They were talking about the current bachelor contestant, and how he was only interested in trophy wives. Joy Behar said, "He's a narcissist, isn't he?" The woman replied, "Yes. He has NPD - Narcissistic Perfectionist Disorder."

WHAT?

All I could do was shake my head. Horrible, misinformed comment. I hesitate to tell people that my mother has NPD, because people just think it means you have a big ego.

[Hopalong]

You DO have a right to be, take up space, and just be yourself

Awww, PR... I love you.

Kathy, don't it make you wish there were a short wallet-sized handout w/the DSM-IV criteria for NPD?

Hmmm.

Would take 5 minutes to make one, wouldn't it. Could come in very handy in life.

xo
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hi all,

The spaciness and shocked feeling is starting to recede and is being replaced by anger.  I have been in a foul temper all day - luckily there was lots to do in the garden so I have been able to keep away from people and take it out on my weeds.  But I just keep thinking "what did she do to me to make me feel that nothing was about me - that my sole purpose was to please others.  How did she manage to convince me so totally that nothing about me mattered - it was all about pleasing other people?"

I've had relationships with men that I didn't really like because they wanted to and so I went along with it. I didn't even stop to think whether I wanted to, I just did what the other person wanted.  I've taken drugs because other people were, regularly drunk myself into a coma because other people were and generally not made decisions based on myself or what I wanted.  I don't mean that to sound as if I'm refusing to take responsibility, I accept those were my choices.  Only they weren't, it never ever occured to me to even think whether or not I wanted to.  Others wanted or expected me to so I did.  I feel like I have been everyone else's shadow, mirroring what they do and copying their actions but not having any substance or being of my own.  How did she manage to do that to me?  And, even worse, how is it that I've only just realised?  If you'd asked me if I follow the crowd I'd have said no.  But I suppose it's not the crowd I'm following, just individuals I didn't want to displease.  I can't think of a single thing I've done in my life just because I wanted to.  There's always been some sort of suggestion from somebody else.

[Hopalong]

You're preggers with yourself, Tupp.

These are labor pains.

Pretty soon you'll be "pushing" so hard you won't be focused on her any more, you'll be overtaken by New Life.

It's going to happen.

But stop to breathe...rest between contractions.

Weeding is a brilliant idea.

Hops

[ann3]

Oh, Tups,

I know how you feel.  Just feel your feelings & think your thoughts, ride the wave, piece the puzzle.  Good thing is that a new you is emerging, blossoming, growing.

xoxo,
ann

[Patrick]

Hi Penny and everyone else who is voiceless,

I’ve been a member here since last fall but I am essentially a newbie as this is my first reply.  I had been posting to an MSN NPD board some years ago but have been taking a break and working on my writing skills which tends to be more essay like. Hopefully some here will find it helpful.

The question your therapist put to you is an excellent way of opening our eyes to our thought processes regarding how others view us and why we need to know how others view us.

While this subject can be dissected into many parts I think it is easiest to explain by breaking it into two components which I believe are validation and self esteem.

We always appreciate the acknowledgement of others whether it be a smile, a hello, a pat on the back or an uplifting remark.  These acknowledgements are affirmations that let us know that we are still on the path which we believe is the right one such as I’m dressed OK, I have friends, etc. It’s good for our self esteem.  If we are still developing our ego (our self) as when we are young, or if it is fragile, we especially need and desire others to validate us.  When this validation does not occur, as when the three people left, we may be dismayed and desperate to find out what caused them to deny us this validation.  Are we faulty in some way?  We need to know.

With this topic it is useful to understand self esteem which has been described as “the way that we evaluate ourselves and measure our own sense of self-worth by comparing how we are and how we aspire to be” from Emotional Intelligence by Christine Wilding.  But, how are we to know if we’re on the right track without the validation of others?  Without others to let us know can we be trusted to evaluate ourselves?   Our imagination can delude or deceive us, as seen with NPD persons who evaluate, elevate and esteem themselves too highly. 

In order to reduce the need for validations or the anxiety of unfulfilled validations we need to develop the self-confidence (as I had to develop) to honestly evaluate and take charge of ourselves and our own lives and not rely on others to validate us.  It is begins by firmly setting our own goals and knowing that we are diligently working towards them.  Aspiring to live as a good person is one of the easiest goals to attain.  It can be done in a second and it can easily be honestly measured – how we are vs. how we aspire to be.  Am I a good person yet? + I am a good person! = Self Esteem
Believe in your self


It is with a bit of trepidation that I publish my first writings in several years but hey I’m taking a chance and I know that I can’t please everyone.

PG

p.s.
It was during my own rebuilding process I came across a list of “Personality Traits in Victims”   http://www.sociopathicstyle.com/traits/victims.htm  which opened my eyes to my “need to please” along with other traits which made me vulnerable to my N.   It’s worth a look.