I knew this day was coming and I still can't deal

[bearwithme]

Hello.

I just don't know where to start.  *sigh*  As many of you may remember, I was the one who "snapped" one night back in April and kicked my NM out of my house, threw luggage onto the lawn along with all her belongings, told her off, etc., and in doing so, I also scared my 2 year old daughter and husband with my screaming and yelling.  I walked guilty of hurting them for weeks but have recovered thanks to your support.  I believe they have forgiven me.  That's the good part.  The other good part is that it has been nearly 3 months of NC with my NM.  This is a first for me.  Going NC had been knocking at my heart for years and I thought that my "snapping" episode did me in with ever seeing my NM again.

I also posted that 2 weeks after my "snap" night, NM called leaving a message only directed at my 2 year old daughter which is NM's ONLY grandchild.  She left a sweet, sappy message only for the baby with no mention of me whatsoever.  3 days later, another voice message left by NM for my daughter but at the end of her message, she said, "Bear, if you need me to fly up there (300 miles) I will be happy to help you if you need my help with the baby, I miss her and I am willing to stay at a hotel just so that I can babysit for you if you need me., please let me know if you need my help..."  Still no mention of what happened.  I did not call her back.

Now this.  On this past Tuesday, she left a message for my husband, mind you, she never calls him but considers him her alli in a way since he stays neutral.  She said, "Steve, Hi!!!!! This is "NM" and I just wanted to know how the family was doing and how is the baby, how is she, I miss her soooo much [NM starts to cry in her message barely getting words out] I just miss my baby so much....and for Bear, I'm willing to forgive and forget, I'm willing to start over just for the sake of my granddaughter, I'm having a hard time with this and for Bear, I feel her pain, I want to do something and will write her a letter and/or send her a card, I know she is not happy with me right now  and I know you care, Steve, so that is why I'm calling you [more crying] now please call me to let me know how the family is...I miss my granddaughter and will do whatever it takes for her sake..."  My husband hates the fact that she put him in this position.  I believe that she will not send me a letter because that would give me a "voice" and a chance to rebut and she does not like my having any "voice."

Okay.  She parades around constantly  proclaiming her rights, "myyyyy granddaughter, she's myyyyy granddaughter, I'm entitled to myyyyyy granddaughter...."  NM's last words to me on my front porch was her pointing a finger in my face saying, "you can kick me out but DON'T YOU DARE TAKE AWAY MYYYYYY GRANDDAUGHTER!!!"  That's when I slammed the door in her face and she had to take a taxi to the airport.

What is this?  what does this mean?  What do I do?  It's seems like she will do anything for HER granddaughter but could give a rat's ass about her own daughter.  She feels so entitled to my daughter just because she's , quote, "mmmyyyyy granddaughter." 

She never, ever called to talk to me after the blow out.  She only addressed my daughter then asked if I needed her help; then she called my husband to beg and cry her way back into our lives, no wait!  I take that back.  She doesn't want back into MY life, she wants back into HER granddaughter's life!!!  This is of ultimate importance to her and I know this.  I believe this is true. 

I feel as though I'm punishing her.  I feel as though I hold the Golden Key and am playing some sort of keep-away with it.  I feel bad.  Yes, I go up and down with "yes, no, yes, no, yes, no...."  Sometimes I'm strong and can make it through the day with feeling good about my decision and other days, I feel like shit.

I feel like shit because I know in my heart she is hurting very badly and misses my daughter tremendously. Or does she??? Can N's feel this pain or is it a facade????  NM prides herself with my daughter but can't seem to respect me and hasn't the bloodiest idea about why I did what I did that April night.  She is clueless and thinks I have problems.

I know NM is sick.  She is basically less mature than my almost 3 year old daughter and can't fathom why I have these feelings.  She is handicapped, essentially.  So I feel a sense of duty to at least understand her illness instead of punishing her for it...or is that what I'm doing here????

Help me figure this out and come out with some peace.
 
And why is life doling this out to me??? Why is God doing this...I feel tortured inside and I want to break free from the burden, the guilt, the shame, the test he is putting me through.  Why do I have to go through this when I thought I kicked her out of my life (so to speak). 

I'm not overly religious but I think God has his hand in some things and it confuses me beyond belief.  Why couldn't he just let me make my decision and be done??

Sorry if I'm emotional here and a bit philosophical, etc...

Bear (with me)

((((((((hugs to all)))))))))))))))00

[mudpuppy]

My experience is a true N doesn't care a whit about anyone else and will not hesitate to use a grandaughter as leverage to make you feel precisely the guilt you're feeling and to try and drive wedges in your family.
Is her relationship harmful or healthy for your daughter? That's the only question you need to answer because your daughter is the one you are responsible to protect, not your NM.

mud

[Logy]

Bear,
I feel your pain!  What NM is doing is triangulation.  Going to your husband, talking and reaching out to your daughter, yet for you...nothing.  Classic N move. 

What struck me is her comment to your husband "I am willing to forgive and forget".  Hey, NM, how about acknowledging and apologizing for your contribution to the situation.  My NM used to do the "sob, suck in her breath, and then go on talking about her and her needs.  And, yes, she is putting him in the middle.  His role is to support you in your decisions on how to deal with this sickness. 

My NM also "claims" everyone in her life as hers.  "My son"  "My granddaughter"  "My house"  "My friend" .  Sounds innocent enough, unless you know the source. 

Please push aside the guilt!!!  After all, if you feel guilty, you must be the one in the wrong.  But you are not!  You deserve a mother's love, care and respect.  If you dont receive it, if you are made to feel less of a person and decide you need to reach out and grab that respect, don't let anyone stand in your way!!!!!!!

The phone message from NM.  I see 2 choices.  One, hubby ignores it.  Two, hubby responds and tells her that she needs to discuss this with you.  That could take him out of the middle.  But he would probably get more messages.  In which he will need to cut contact.  I think it will be increasingly difficult for him to be neutral with NM's tactics.

It's a difficult, sad place to be at for you.  If you don't expect respect, you will never get it.
Love, Logy

[Sealynx]

This is very common behavior. They do and say everything from a position of self-interest No matter what has happened or the consequences that are due, they will go back to how "THEY" feel, what "THEY want and what you need to do to make "THEIR" life work. No matter how valid your argument is for or against something, they will quickly revert to some form of "well I wouldn't" or "I've never" or "no Christian person would" etc. etc. They do this to steer the discussion away from critical thinking and unto some quasi moral ground were they have room to emote rather than repent.

I think it helps to remember that we now have a new NPD cult figure to think about when we are tempted to let an N get away with something....

Just look at  Joran Van der Sloot.... That girl looked at his computer while he was in the bathroom. What could he possible do with his rage at such a huge violation but strangle her to death and beat her head in with a baseball bat until HE felt better.

They have no sense of proportion in their behavior. It is all about what THEY feel the need to do at any given moment.
Good Luck!

[bearwithme]

Mudpup wrote:

Is her relationship harmful or healthy for your daughter? That's the only question you need to answer because your daughter is the one you are responsible to protect, not your NM.

Good question.  I think it is healthy FOR my daughter as she is barely 3 and loves having her grandma spoil and love her.  However, what is not healthy is that I don't know if I will "snap" again and have my daughter witness her mommy doing something like that and learning that her mommy can not control herself, etc. 

Perhaps I feel a bit more guilt because I want my daughter to have a grandmother in her life because my grandmother (NM's mother) is the ultimate N and never visited her grandchildren and I always wanted have that bond like my friends had with their Grandmother's; my father's mother died young so I missed the chance.  My husband's mother lives across the country so visits are limited to vacations, etc.

Hey, NM, how about acknowledging and apologizing for your contribution to the situation.  My NM used to do the "sob, suck in her breath, and then go on talking about her and her needs.  And, yes, she is putting him in the middle.  His role is to support you in your decisions on how to deal with this sickness.

How the heck to I send this message to NM??? I want her to know that she is grossing him out and he doesn't like her right now, yet, she thinks he is so "special."  Huh, I just remembered that she calls my husband her "good son" when my brother gets no respect from her like I do.  She blames her own child, my brother, for her and my father's divorce due to my bro's drug and alcohol problems.  She throws him under the bus any chance she gets!!  Ahhh, I'm angry all over again!

This is very common behavior. They do and say everything from a position of self-interest No matter what has happened or the consequences that are due, they will go back to how "THEY" feel, what "THEY want and what you need to do to make "THEIR" life work. No matter how valid your argument is for or against something, they will quickly revert to some form of "well I wouldn't" or "I've never" or "no Christian person would" etc. etc. They do this to steer the discussion away from critical thinking and unto some quasi moral ground were they have room to emote rather than repent.

Sealynx,  it is about THEM.  THEIR feelings and THEIR posessions, etc.  She plays the Christian card all the time and my husband can't stand it.  It's obvious that you have had an agrument with an N. Am I right?  Arguing with my NM is like the rabbit hole in Alice in Wonderland.

Thank you for the support.  I still go up and down with this unfortunately.

Has anybody gone NC and had the N try to come back with tears, guilt and inflicting obligations??

Bear

[teartracks]

Dear Bear,

Can you give yourself permission to push the urgency of your feelings to the background for a while to give yourself a rest from it all?

Is it possible to find a calmer place in the immediate sense by making you and your family off limits to NM for a while?   

Hugs,

tt


 

[Hopalong]

I don't think she will be good for your daughter.
Being doted on by an N is destructive, no matter how much your mother gushes.

I think you can find healthy older people who'd love to serve in a grandparent role...

Hops

[seastorm]

It is wrenching to be pulled and pushed in so many directions, especially because it is your heart involved in this tug of war.
I can just imagine the scene where you threw your mother out. Give yourself a break. To me it sounds honest and passionate and probably long overdue. Of course this is not your everyday behaviour. It bothers me that your mom is willing to forgive and forget your behaviour. How about listening to you and trying to understand what pushed you to such lengths????? And now the triangulating.  She has very poor communication skills around this. Always has to have scapegoat to blame things on. Preferably she can start insinuating that you are unbalanced. This does not bode well for the future. Negotiating out of love is a good and kind thing to do when boundaries are respected.

It sounds like your mom is triangulating and your little family does not need this. I hear a lot of guilt and wishful thinking going on with you. Wishing for an idylic relationship with grandma etc. My experience with that was that my NM continually undermined my relationship with my daughter by triangulating and putting me down. I needed her help as I was poor and a single mom. There was bond between my NM and my daughter but I think it is very confusing for child to love her mom and then have another person putting her mom down. I couldnt identify or figure out what was going on at the time. I just felt angry, tired and unbelievably frustrated with my mom's way of parenting. Now I would draw a line and never let anyone mess with me and my child like that. Come to think about it she was very sweet with my husband who was a cocaine addict and beat me. Just the usual brains in a blender chaos of having a dear little N grandma.

Before you talk to your NM I think it would be helpful to have guidelines for what you will tolerate and what you wont tolerate.

IF the phone calls are bothering you take a break. This is such a precious time for a little family. Kind of like the Garden of Eden. Dont let ANYONE in who ruins that for you. You dont have to be abused to have love in your life. Or a grandma.


Sea storm

[Butterfly]

Bear,

From my experience, these messages from your NM have DANGER DANGER written all over them. 

I have been NC for nearly three years now.  Yes, I have experienced all the wretched N behavior you are now dealing with--calls, mail, messages, tears, false apologies, "I just can't imagine why you're treating me this way", etc. etc.  I relented at first and allowed contact--what a mistake!  NM acted out in a horrendously abusive manner in front of my children, attacking me and them as well.  I left and have never seen her since.  Yes, I felt guilty and unsure at first, but now am resolved and at peace. 

Also, it has helped that my husband is on my side regarding this issue, not neutral--having seen a lot of NM's negative behavior and alerting me to things she had said and done behind my back in front of him. 

I would suggest you stand firm and gain your own peace before you make any decisions that could harm you or your little one.  A therapist also can help with your perspective--sometimes we are so used to abuse that we don't always recognize how bad it is.  My T has helped me see how extreme and completely poisonous any contact with my NM is. 

My guess is that her behavior will get worse and more antagonistic.  My NM got worse before she backed off.  And, since I have changed numbers and my address, I don't really know if she has backed off completely.  After initially going NC, I had relented and allowed contact.  At that time, NM told me in a scathing voice that she did not like my children, didn't really want to see them anyway, and that my children were ruined because I was a horrible mother.  This after she had begged to be a grandmom again.  So, she just wanted control .  She has no capacity for love and cannot establish a real relationship with anyone let alone a child.  I am now very glad that my children do not even remember what she looks like.  At this point, I feel that I have significantly saved my children . . . and myself . . . from further damage and dysfunction.

Wishing you peace,
Butterfly 

[Meh]

What is this?  what does this mean?  What do I do?  It's seems like she will do anything for HER granddaughter but could give a rat's ass about her own daughter.  She feels so entitled to my daughter just because she's , quote, "mmmyyyyy granddaughter."  

It's a power trip and a guilt trip. That's what Nar-mothers do best. It's not love for your granddaugher or love for you.
The situation with the grandaughter is an example of "favoritism" it's like another version of the "golden child"- again it's a power trip.

I never really understood Nar-people that much, they only seem to be content when they are instigating conflict.

I suggest you enjoy your daughter and your husband. Do something, anything, make money, play tennis, read great books, ride horses.

Personally my grandparents didn't play important roles in my life as a kid despite the concept that kids need grandparents, they don't.
Three of my grandparents have passed away, since I didn't really bond with them, I don't miss them one iota.

Play dates with other children and witnessing stable adult relationships are probably more important than spending time with a grandparent who has a personality disorder.

GOOD LUCK!

P.S. I've experienced this behavior also, where the Nar-person does not directly talk about the incident. Denies the nature of the incident, avoids it completely. My mother does that, I used to get frustrated with her but, now I think I'm getting better at just excepting her faults and not expecting her to be someone she is not. That doesn't mean that I like the b*tch though. I simply am trying so save my own emotional health.

It's challenging, the only partial solution I have found to these situations is understanding their behavior enough. Once you read enough about it, then they become rather predictable. So at some point, a person can say to themselves "OK, I know this routine".

[bearwithme]

tt, seastorm, Nikko, Butterfly 7 Hops:

You guys are goooood.  What a wealth of knowledge and experience here.  I can't help but think that us victims of N's are chosen people, for a reason.  And what reason is that?  I will live through the answers as they say but my patience wanes a little.

Butterfly, you being NC for nearly 3 years now and the road you had to endure to get there. My gosh.  I fear the exact same thing that happened to you when you let you NM come back into your lives and then she told you and your kids off like that.  Honestly, what goes through these people's minds????  I hope I get to your place someday...

You guys mention "triangulation" a lot here.  This sparked my curiosity because it seems so obvious the way you describe it.  But is "triangulation" a method of control or is it aimed to inflict hurt and heartbreak?  Because if the N triangulates, then doesn't that ultimately equal betrayal and being disloyal to the person.  Like lets say if I was mad at my friend and she was mad at me, then I went to my other friend and told her all sorts of things about the friend that I was mad at and blamed her for everything.  Then isn't that gossip and betrayal?  Whether or not it was me who is wrong or my friend, isn't it my responsibility to handle the dispute between the two of us only?  Or perhaps in my mind, I was just telling the third friend out of frustration and needed to vent.  Who holds the boundary here?  If I was triangulating, then what was my mission?  To hurt the other friend or to have control over everyone's feelings and thoughts, including my own?

I guess I'm perplexed how triangulation is supposed to help the N.  How do they use it in the world?  Doesn't my NM think it risky to triangulate at this point, especially with my own husband?

Uuuugghhh!!

You guys are the best, really.

Bear

[JustKathy]

Has anybody gone NC and had the N try to come back with tears, guilt and inflicting obligations??

YES! I have been NC for about 6 years, and NM has never backed down. I get more attention from her now that I have gone NC than I did in my entire life. She also went after my husband when she couldn't get through to me. As with your NM, she perceived him as being on her side, probably because he politely tolerated her, which she interpreted as, "He likes me. I can manipulate him." She would send him letters saying things like, "I feel so sorry for you. You are such a good and kind person, and I hope Kathy doesn't turn on your family and hurt them like she hurt me." Fortunately H and I were seeing a therapist at the time, and she (therapist) was able to make him understand that he was being played. He ignored all of NM's correspondence, but she still didn't stop.

I feel like shit because I know in my heart she is hurting very badly and misses my daughter tremendously. Or does she??? Can N's feel this pain or is it a facade????

In my opinion, no, they don't feel pain. They feel ANGER. My NM was never hurt that I went NC, she was angry that she lost control. It's hard to say if your M misses her granddaughter or not, but if she does, too bad for her. She should have thought of that when she was treating you like dirt. I know I'm probably coming across as being heartless, but I I've reached the end of my own personal rope, not only with NM, but co-father and co-siblings. I've finally accepted that I can only be healthy and whole if they are 100% out of my life, so based on that, I simply have no tolerance for them, or for Nism in general anymore.

Like Butterfly, I also lived with a lot of guilt after first going NC, but the more NM pushed the envelope, played games, and crossed boundaries by involving my husband, the more I was able to let go of the guilt and accept that she is SICK. It does take a while to reach that place, though. Ns will not go quietly. They will not silently accept NC. This could go on for years, so do what you have to do to protect your family. If your husband is confused or upset with the situation, maybe some joint therapy sessions will help. It definitely helped my husband. Once he heard a professional reinforce what I had already told him, he too was able to put aside the guilt and just ignore her sorry ass.

Best of luck to you. I know how impossibly difficult this is. Please don't feel guilty. You have done NOTHING wrong. Don't let her convince you otherwise.

[bearwithme]

As with your NM, she perceived him as being on her side, probably because he politely tolerated her, which she interpreted as, "He likes me. I can manipulate him."

You hit the nail on the head, JustK.  She does see him as liking her.  As I was throwing her out of my house and physically turning her shoulders towards the door, she screamed "STEVE! STEVE! HELP! HELP!! HELP ME, STEEEVVE!!  Of course he didn't but it disturbed him enough to complain about it.  The therapy suggestion seems sensible and husband and I have talked about it a bit here and there.  He's been pretty supportive and understands most of it but has trouble at times and I accept that. 

You have been NC for 6 years, wow, that's great.  I am finally understanding what you all say that the N comes back when you try to go NC.  But they come back in such weird form that it knocks you off your feet, at least for me.  While I totally expected her to weasel and connive and back stab, I just didn't think I'd have this much guilt and it's totally because of the baby.  Her weepy phone message got to me and she succeeded once again.  That's my life.  JustKathy, what your NM said to your husband

"I feel so sorry for you. You are such a good and kind person, and I hope Kathy doesn't turn on your family and hurt them like she hurt me."

  this is exactly what my NM said to my husband the night I snapped and I left in my car to calm down and was gone about 20 minutes.  NM said, "You'll see someday, you don't know the REAL Bear, you can't see because you don't have God in your life but Bear is no angel." 

She also said, which I have said here before, "It's going to take a horrendous tragedy in Bear's life for her to finally see the light."  I'm glad I wasn't in the house to hear that at that moment because I would have been arrested for knocking her out.

Who on earth would wish this on their very own child?  Who?  Who would wish this for the mother of her only grandchild and play with their fate, destiny, and happiness in life? 

Now that I say this once again, I truly see that I'm heartbroken.

Bear

[Sealynx]

Bear! TT gave you some good advice about distancing yourself from this issue and finding a peaceful place to be. There are two components to this mother daughter thing. One involves stopping all the boundary invasions in the present. The other is undoing our own programming.

N's exude a sense of immediacy. The need to resolve their feelings is always presented as an emergency that must be dealt with by having everyone put aside what they are doing, thinking and feeling in order to respond only to them.. This causes several things to happen:

1. A pattern of "emergency response" is set up in childhood. In other words your "fight or flight" response is triggered constantly by her. This response is not only about fighting or running. With N mom it is about stopping all personal thoughts and feelings and responding only to the situation she has set up.

2. N's project great certitude, tend to marry submissive spouses and often go unchallenged by others who "know how they are". This means her dire warnings and constant demands usually go unchallenged. So as children we seldom see that nothing bad would happen if she didn't get her way and that other people might be RIGHT in denying her wishes. N's seem to set up a sick extended family system as well as nuclear family system to support their needs. This can lead to a feeling of safety in placating her. We learn that the temporary solution to our FF feelings is for someone to give her what she wants.

3. As adults, when we become aware of the damage done to us, we can look back and see how wrong, unnecessary and self-serving her actions were, but undoing the "conditioned response" to immediately drop our own feelings and go into FF mode takes work and time.

So TT is right when she says you need to work on letting go of the immediate need to fix this. I think the advice of going to a therapist with hubby is a good one too. You may want to discuss relaxation techniques to counter the feelings she brings up while there.

[Hopalong]

My god, Sea Lynx...that was brilliant. Who ARE you?
Jeez, I hope you're somebody's therapist. Heck, being here, you're one of mine!
That was an amazing explication of the Nsurvivor reflex.
Thank you.

Bear, honey. I am so sorry.
You nailed it. You are heartbroken.

Recognizing malice toward oneself from one's mother is devastating.

It is true, it is the facet of her that makes the rest of her unsafe, as it's all in
the same package. One day you'll forgive her for being broken enough to wish
you ill. But right now...it's just heartbreaking to see that reality...is reality.

Don't fear her. Don't fear yourself.

But do take Sealynx's advice on therapy and relaxation. You'll need a
lifetime of steady measures to boundary your baby and your family from
her attempts to damage.

The good news is that in learning all of that, your way through the
world will be a better one anyway. And so will your daughter's.

love,
Hops