Billy Budd by Herman Melville (working for a psychopath)

[seastorm]

Hi Everyone,

I  watched the old classic "Billy Budd" a few nights ago and I was amazed at the psychological depth and character development in the movie. Billie Budd is an innocent who works with people in a no win situation. He never comes to the point where he realizes that some people really do mean to do harm to others. If you get a chance to see it I highly recommend it.

Bye for now,

Sea storm

[mudpuppy]

I watched it too seastorm.
Robert Ryan was an amazing actor, and that smile on his face as he died, knowing his death condemned the innocent Billy, was one I'll wager we've all seen more than once.
I disagree ever so slightly on Billy. I think he realized that some people are malevolent he just never let it cause him to hate them. He wasn't afraid of Claggert because he understood and pitied him. He had no guile.

mud

[seastorm]

Yes, Claggart was an insidious trouble maker and he was gleeful at the mischief and grief he caused others. He particularly relished bringing down good men. The captain was an honourable man and a man of the law but such a character knows the law and operates  in a way that can be murderous but is withing the limits of the law. It really boggles my mind the depth of Melville's understanding of such a character and at times I held my breath to see what psychological terrorism he was up to next.

Claggart basically undermined the ship. Every man aboard was destroyed or nearly destroyed by his manipulations and his force of evil. Good men like the captain could not or would not hold him to a higher power.  It seems that in the end Melville thought that no good could come from life aboard a war ship anyway and grace under fire.  Billy Budd seemed like a Christlike character. He behaved as well as any human being could under the circumstances and yet Claggart was insensed to anger anyway. There is a good lesson to be learned about letting people like Claggart have authority, but it seems that such people love power and want to garner it at any cost.

I would like to see a book about what the captain does after this. His whole world is turned upside down. Inspite of trying to be a man of the law, he ends up destroying a deeply good man. Somewhere in the Bible it says that God loves justice more than mercy. Good to think about these things.

The speechlessness of Billy was interesting.  How can one explain the complexity of some things that happen? How can a person find a voice to protest in a sane way?

Seastorm

[lighter]

How can one explain the complexity of some things that happen? How can a person find a voice to protest in a sane way?

Seastorm

Seastorm:  I Wiki'd some quick quotes that help me understand the conundrum you asked about.  This will probably come across wrong and silly, but my screen is jumping around, and I don't have the ability or patience to do better today.

"Every person has a choice between Good and Evil.  Choose Good and stand against those who would choose Evil."
Friedrich Kellner

Which leads to the following quote:


"The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil."
Hannah Arendt

I believe that most people don't make up their minds to be good or evil.   Attempting to convince people that they do, is one thing that makes it harder for people to hear us when we're trying to be understood.  

"It is a sin to believe evil of others, but it is seldom a mistake."
H. L. Mencken

Judging by the response I've received while explaining egregiously bad behavior of an N/Sociopath,  I'd say that people tend to make leaps and assumptions about the statements because they need facts to make sense.    N behavior doesn't make sense.  One must suspend the need to make sense of facts in order to accept them, IMO.   It's a shame that it's easier to find fault with the victims or excuses for the N behavior, than it is to accept people are doing illogical destructive things against all reason.  

"Evil unchecked grows, evil tolerated poisons the whole system."
Jawahalal Nehru

"He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done."
Leonardo DaVinci

In my opinion, that's our justice system, and our Judges are woefully prepared to do their jobs.  Esp in family court.

'They say "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is "Evil prevails."
Yuri Orlov   Lord of War

"Some men aren't looking for anything logical.  They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with.  Some men just want to watch the world burn."
Alfred              The Dark Knight


Evil men spread confusion like a plague.  It's second nature, sweeping up the innocent and those who would stop them.   They lie, cheat and sacrifice all that is sacred in order to watch the world burn.  That people choose to become confused is natural.  They don't want their worlds to burn, they don't want to admit they're lives could be touched the same way, for no reason at all.  They lash out at the messenger, IME.  I have great empathy for that predicament, except with the people trusted with positions of authority and responsibility for the oppressed.  Then, it's their moral obligation to  shake off the comfort of confusion, and do the uncomfortable thing......  deal with the Evil, and risk being touched by it.  If this doesn't make sense, oh well.

[mudpuppy]

 

Billy Budd seemed like a Christlike character.

Seastorm,
A lot of people read the book as an allegory for Christ with Claggert as either satan or the evil of men that Christ died for and the Captain as Pilate, a man who knew Billy had done no wrong but condemend him anyway and Billy's inability to speak mirroring Christ's conscious decision not to speak to defend himself in front of Pilate.
As with all of Melville it's never quite that simple or clear, there's always some ambiguity to leave one wondering.

Somewhere in the Bible it says that God loves justice more than mercy.

Perhaps you're thinking of where it says He loves mercy more than sacrifice. The whole point of the gospel is to give us mercy rather than justice and he asks us to do the same to others, which Billy did by stopping others when they tried to administer justice to Claggert, the guy who would eventually condemn him.

mud

[seastorm]

Thank you both for replying. This is really big thinking and very important to how I navigate the next step. Since I can't find forgiveness for my ex or forgiveness for myself for going down the road as a complying sheep, I struggle to find some guidepost that will tell me the way.

Is it evil? Or how much am I responsible for? The fact that Christ chose mercy and got crucified and Billy ended up dead too is far too laudable and spiritually courageous for me.  Still to see a really good person involved with evil leaves me shaken.

My sister gave me the quote and thanks for setting me straight, Mudpuppy.  Mercy toward evil men......hmmmmmm.  One would have to believe that no one is evil. I don't live in that place anymore. Was Billy wise in not standing up to Claggert? The whole crew were psychologically destroyed. But better in the end. Maybe a few people need to be destroyed in this way to be the guideposts for others.


Sea storm

[Guest]

Mo2

N behaviour doesn't make sense on the surface, but it sure makes sense when you understand it I think. No point trying to explain it to people who don't want to know though.

"It is a sin to believe evil of others, but it is seldom a mistake."

I like that.

[mudpuppy]

Was Billy wise in not standing up to Claggert?

  But Billy wasn't condemned for not standing up to Claggert; he was only condemned when he used Claggert's means to retaliate. As even the Captain acknowledged, had Billy just endured, Claggert would have been hanged for his false testimony and Billy set free. That doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves; only that we can't do so with the same means used to harm us.
  I know how tough forgiving oneself for being suckered by an N can be, but I'm sure you also realize how pointless and destructive it is to not forgive yourself. Not forgiving yourself of past mistakes robs you of your present and future; can even make it impossible to function.

mud

[seastorm]

Hey Mudpuppy,

Your insights into Billy's behaviour are illuminating. Thanks for sharing them.Right, when Billy retaliates with anger and aggression, he is lost.

These are deep waters Mud.  I wish that I had not retaliated with so much anger at my ex. Just for myself, it is not something I am proud of. I will forgive myself eventually and can see it on the horizon. It is just more than I could expect of myself. So this is how I grow.

The captain of the ship made a fateful decision. He doomed a good guy. Maybe we are doomed if we lose compassion and follow the line of reason and respectibility. But the people who lived on can be redeemed. What it takes to overcome and go beyond something so traumatic is still a mystery to me. Intellectually I get it. I even wrote my Master's thesis on "Reauthoring and Restorying the Sense of Self After Trauma". I wrote it before all this N stuff happened.

One thing that has helped is the belief in a higher power.

Sea

[lighter]

Seastorm:

I hope you do find forgiveness for yourself.

You misplaced your trust and let someone cross boundaries you should have been defending.

Boundaries can be mindfully cultivated and tended.  Give that to yourself and forgive.

If you solve the boundary issues, it'll be time to go out and make some new mistakes.

We're human.

We're going to make mistakes, Sea.

As for forgiving someone who hurt you........

**I find it helps to wonder our loud about what might have happened that caused them to be so broken.

They are broken you know.

Forgive the N......  but do it for yourself.  

You don't even have to tell them.


**  I find I use the same theory with rude people or those who cut me off in traffic, etc.  
      Before I get upset, I wonder what happened that caused them to behave that way, feel good that I'm having a better day, and go on down the road.

[seastorm]

I do not want to forgive him. I think it is shocking that you would suggest this.  Maybe I have compassion for his wounds but I do not forgive him anymore than I would  forgive a shark that bit off my leg.

Sea storm