my daughter has been coopted by sociopath ex clan:please help me

[seastorm]

I feel very hurt and confused right now. Everything feels upside down, wrong and frightening.

As many of you know, my first husband is the father of my 33 year old daughter. He made his money dealing drugs and he made it very big. Lots of money, no longer has to work and plays golf everyday  and has for about the last decade. His best friend was arrested for money laundering for bikers and is in prison. As he  was living very high and taking frequent trips to Costa Rica, Mexico, Hawaii and starting up  restaurents and setting up friends in businesses, I was living as a single mom on welfare.   Then as a student on loans to university. He rarely paid support of 200.00 per month.  He would let it go until I got a lawyer, who was a kind East Indian man, to write him a letter threatening legal action. My daughter benefitted from the wealth, going on great vacations at Christmas and Easter. I felt aweful not having her at these times, but  thought it was  selfish to deprive her of all the fun.

Not getting the support wrecked havoc. I needed the money for food and rent. Once I asked his new wife, who is 17 years his junior, to please pay up after six months. She said, Oh this is not my problem. This is between you and ex husband. She was rolling in money.
Meanwhile, my daughter went to an expensive private school. Her friends were children of the wealthiest people in the city. I had a little house with a wood heater and used scraps of wood to heat it. You could see the outside at  the bottom of the wall. It was very cute and I painted it up. We  had two bedrooms and I had to rent one to a student. I had garage sales, worked at a fish and chip place and tried to keep it together. Once I needed 800 dollars for her teeth and I told the people at the university and they gave me a bursary for being  the most promising student in the teaching faculty. So I was trying hard. I was a good mom. I would do all my work by five and spend the rest of my time with my daughter. We did fun things without money. Her friends liked me. I think because I am creative and  unconventional.

I am not a monster.

I have felt that my ex and his wife want to put me out of the picture completely. Wife number two acts as if I have been an unfit mother and I am insane or something and therefore had never had a conversation since my daughter was 8. I have said that I wanted to communicate and cooperate with them for my daughter's sake. I am a trained teacher, counselor and child and family therapist. But this myth that I am too crazy to talk to for one second is perpetuated.

My ex has a large extended family, plus she has two half siblings.  My daughter is desperate to be a part of it. So she goes along with demonizing me. When her dad had a huge wedding for her, I was excluded. The grooms parents said that they were so happy to have spent time getting to know my daughters family.  I had not been introduced to them.  I was shocked and hurt. Then when people were getting up to talk at the microphone in this palatial hotel, I was told by one of my daughter's cousins that I was not allowed to speak. I said,"Whattttt????? Who told you that??? and he said that my daughter had told him. I was just spinning with shame, shock and confusion.  I started to cry. I was sitting off by myself with three friends and was not  part of the wedding party.  I felt terrible. All the people at the wedding were friends of my ex or friends of the equally wealthy groom's family.
I wallked up to the groom's parents and told them I was OOna's mother. They were oblivious to having maybe left me out a tad.
So I started to cry. I could not stop so I wanted to run away. Oona came up to me and said where are you going? I said that I just have to leave. There she was in her wedding dress and it was my ex's wife who helped her dress. I didnt see my daughter before the wedding. I wanted to.. I rented a sutie for 250.00 per night and put it on VISA and invited the groom's parents and my daughter to visit but they just left me out. I just kept thinking that I must deserve this. I did not know how bad things were and I felt like Banquo's ghost at the wedding.

As I was leaving I was crying and I said," Have a nice life ". I said it with love and I was sobbing.

No one understood how it was for me except my friend and my partner( who was on the brink of leaving and having an affair with a woman.)

Fast forward four years and my daughter has just had a baby. He husband thinks the clan of my ex is great. He does not know how this carismatic. sporty, charming man got his money and how he keeps the clan together with his money.  He is a severe alcoholic and still does heavy drugs. God knows how he manages to stay even moderately healthy. I guess the vacations and golf help.
There is stil very bad feelings on the grooms part because I upset my daughter at the wedding. I have never been forgiven. My daughter lives back east. I live on the edge of the west coast.  I went to see the new baby but my daughter's husband loathes me and I  guess he sides with my daughters father and new wife. The atmosphere when I arrived after travelling for twelve hours was frosty. He did not greet me and just went in the bedroom. I got a taxi from the airport to save them the trouble. They were both up when I arrived.
Everything sounded ok on the phone when I called to come to see the baby and help out. I asked if it was a good time and my daughter entreated me to come.  D. my ex's wife had been there for eight days with her sister before I came.  I felt a little weird that d. was there before I was. Afterall I am the mother.  My daughter was furious that I said that. She said that D. is like a mother to me. When D. was there  I asked to speak to her, thinking that I could talk with her about this shared experience. She refused to talk to me. She told my daughter that it is all ancient history and she has no need to talk with me. My daughter is doing her PHD in counseling but she thinks this is ok.  What is going on?"???????

So my daughter's husband, B., hates me. He did not talk to me the whole time. He was cold and rude, slamming cupboards and yealling " who cut on the counter without a board underneath". I guess he thought that I did. I dont do things like that.
Finally,I asked my daughter what was going on. I said that you could slice the tension with a knife.  So she said that he did not like me since the wedding. I said we need to talk. She said that she told him not to talk to me. What are these people???
I said," I am leaving soon. I can see that ten days is too long and you are both tired. Before I go I hope we can talk about this and make peace" So I walked into the bedroom where son in law was watching tv.  I said," I can sense that you are angry with me so can you tell me what this is about so we can work it out?" He said , " How about the wedding? You made (daughter) cry said "Have a nice life".  I  said that it was a defficult position for me at the wedding and I was too hurt to stay.
He said," Oh yeah, I knew you would just make excuses. You dont take responsibility for what you do". He was yelling at me. He is six feet two and weights about 250 pounds. My daughter was sneering and agreeing with him.
I said that I would leave in the morning and that I did not want to ruin their time with the baby. I tried to be quiet and just blend in with the woodwork and be friendly and helpful and  so I could not understand where all the rage was coming from.
Anyway,  after I said ," I will leave in the morning"  He said," Oh no you wont. You are getting out of this house tonight." He was very loud and threatening.

I went upstairs to get my suitcase. I was completely freaked out and somehow completely  to blame for his outburst.
When I came downstairs with my suitcase, I phoned to get a reservation on the plane and found it would cost 700.00
I did not say anything except that I had to getout of there. My daughter had stood behind him and was egging him on. It was a nightmare from hell. She was at her laptop and I said what are you doing? She said,Oh I'll get you a room at the Hilton. I said Is it close to the airport? She said "I don't know:  So I said : I just want to go and get a hotel close to the airport. She said : I'll pay for it.
I said that is not necessary. I was thinking that this is so nuts. It is not going to make it ok if they pay for my hotel.
Then my daughter said that she would drive me and she went to get her keyes. At that point her husband came out with the month old baby girl in his arms and said that she could not go because of the baby.  She said that she could go because she just breastfed the baby. He told her that she could not go again saying," You can't go because of the baby" She looked crestfallen and backed off. I said just let me go. I left as a cab arrived ( I had not called a cab. I guess hubby called one)
So I went on this long drive to the airport. There was a kind Muslim cabdriver. He comforted me. I was heartbroken.

When I got home the next day I saw that there was a message on facebook. It was actually my daughter offering her deepest condolences to a friend of mine because his mother died. I was just one of the many who got this shared message. I looked on her facebook and had a message saying that  " the visit went a terribly bad as it could possibly go". For this message she received eight messages of condolence. I was kind of blown away that she went so public with this.
I dont want to think that she is a spoiled princess.She has many wonderful qualities but she thinks that I am the evil one. This is about the most painful thing I can think of and I dont know how I am going to bear it.

I left her dad when she was four. Because he cheated on me, beat me, left me alone in a place with no electricity or phone for weeks. He was addicted to cocaine and started dealing it. I was poor and had nothing and no support. He did not want a baby and for years I would try to facilitate their being together. What a mistake.But he is the hero and his family are the family that she is sort of desperate to be part of. If I have to be made the enemy so be it.

Am I the aweful person she is saying I am or is this some kind of scapegoating? There is no doubt that her father is a narcissist and criminally bent as well. I have been hung out to dry. I dont want to feel like a victim but I do.

Please comment. I need feedback to help me see.

Sea storm

[JustKathy]

Hey Sea Storm,

I'm so sorry for your pain. First of all, yes, this is scapegoating. You haven't done anything wrong.

Ns are unfortunately very successful with their smear campaigns. Throw money into the mix, and it's a lethal combination. I lost my brother (emotionally) this way. He's ten years younger than me, and when he was a kid, he was the most caring and sensitive person I've ever known. But my NM used a combination of lies and money to make him completely co-dependent, and now he wants nothing to do with me.

I don't know what to think about your daughter. There may not be anything you can do at this point in time, but that may change. I think there's a good chance that your daughter may one day realize what has been going on. She'll see the truth, BUT, it will probably take a major event for that to happen. For example, a bitter split between your ex and his trophy wife, in which their true colours come out, and your D realizes who her REAL mother is, and at the same time, who (or what) her REAL father is. My sister, who is co-D, shows signs that her true self is still in there somewhere, but it's currently being suppressed by NM's domineering tactics. When NM finally dies, I think there's a *chance* that my sister may reclaim her true "self." But right now she's firmly in NM's grip, so it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

I hope I'm making sense. Sometimes when I'm at a loss, I just ramble. Whatever happens, please do not beat yourself up over it. I know it's hard not to blame yourself, but you're dealing with very bad people here. Many people in my family have turned against me as a result of NM's smear campaign, and it hurts like hell, but there's nothing I can do. One thing that might help is to journal your feelings. I've started writing a sort of memoir, not for profit, but to document what has happened to me with my NM so that one day, if those family members want to know the truth, it will be there. Maybe it would help to start documenting your life. And maybe the day will come that you can give that memoir to your daughter, and she'll realize what really happened.

As for Facebook . . . that place can be a great source of pain in cases like this. It might be best to take a break from the site, or to not "friend" people in the family. I keep a separate account for just friends, no family members, so I don't have to be exposed to any family drama. I'd stay away from anything that will rub salt in this wound.

Hang in there.

Kathy

[CB123]

Oh, Sea,

I am so sorry.  This sounds like a nightmare. 

I cant imagine what she is thinking.  But Kathy is right, I think you need to shield yourself from fresh wounds for awhile and give yourself a chance to grieve.  This is a major wound and you are going to take awhile getting over it--not that you will ever be "over it", but it will be less fresh and raw.

Time can change things.   She is still relatively young, and she hasnt been a mom for long. 

She doesnt sound personality disordered, but confused.  Even her husband sounds confused.  When an explanation is offered (as it appears one has, from your ex), its hard not to use that "truth" to explain things that didnt make sense in her life.  A young child doesnt understand why one parent is very wealthy and giving and the other is very poor.  Maybe she has wondered and wondered, and wanted an explanation that would make sense. 

She is going to grow up and the world may be different to her and she may contact you later, maybe MUCH later, to re build your relationship.  There's no way to know what the years may bring--her marriage may not last, for instance.  Any number of things could bring her to a point where she connects with who you were as a young, single mom. 

I am so sorry, Sea.

CB

[seastorm]

Thank you Kathy. I have been blind to how pervasive and destructive the smear campaign was. I am sorry your brother and sister were coopted. I have really woken up to how insidious and devastating this is.At least now I know how bad it is. I have been treading water for a long time thinking my relationship with my daughter had weathered her childlhood.  Instead of her seeing my position from a feminist prospective, I was seen as a bothersome ex who should disappear. I remember thinking that there was going to be price to pay for the silence and lack of communication between me and her dad and his wife. Every year I would try a couple of times but it was met with a brick wall ie.  There is no need for any communication. I was seen as ridiculous and touchy feely for even suggesting it. You can imagine how inadequate and unfortunate I felt as a family counselor to  have to accept this. So over the years I have been excluded and dealt out of the picture. Very sad.

I notice that true to form, in an alcoholic's family feelings are not talked about. This is accomplished by scorning feelings and labeling them drama etc. So on the one hand my daughter has lived with that philosophy and with me she has the opposite approach to communication. I feel sorry for my daughter because I think the cost of burying feelings is very high. Now I see that interjecting a system where the law is "Dont talk about feelings" with a request to talk about the elephant in the living room and deal with conflict and feelings is electrifying to people who don't speak that language and dont proscribe to the belief that things are better talked about than ignored. I don't choose to live like that. I can stuff down feelings and soldier on for sure but it is a road that is littered with lies and denial. 

My feelings are very raw right now. How naive of me to think that my ex and his wife would not be manipulative and remorseless. There have been two suicides in  his family and no one mentions them. One succumbed to drug abuse and the other to depression. The no talk rule sure did not help them. I refused to live with a drug dealer but wife number two went along with it. My daughter came home and told me that money was stuffed into all the shoes in the house. THis was when she was eight. I complained to them but of course was seen as a pest. Short of turning them in, I was helpless. Now I think it would have been better to turn them in. There were casualties.  One of his friends got addicted to heroin. Of course it ruined his life. Somehow my sociopath ex has been able to dally in heavy drug use and survive. How can his wife go along with this. The family laughs about all this and treats it like the games played during prohibition. Needless  to say they have all benefitted. It is so horrible.

The price of my silence and trying to keep from badmouthing her father has been losing my daughter.  I think there is evil involved here. Maybe I was evil to turn a blind eye. I think it is evil to alienate my daughter from me.  This is hitting me with the impact of a piano falling on me.

I am sorry that you are alienated from your loved ones. It is very painful. You make perfect sense and your words strike deep. No ramblings. It is hard to put this into coherent language because people rarely talk about it. Thank you for being a witness for me.

I think a memoir would be a good thing to do. Whenever I try to explain, she thinks I am making excuses. The memoir would help both of us.  I thought that I could write a story about life with my daughter and the good parts for the baby. My complete joy at being a grandmother has been dashed. I doubt I will be part of their lives and I get it now. I need to work on my own life. I have felt that I was not accepted by my daughter and I tried to peddle faster and give more. I am gong to stop that. She has so much contempt for me that there is no point. If I stop there is nothing there. What a sad sad picture. I think it will take a long time for things to shift.

CB.... Thank you for reading my very long post. I think you are right about my daughter and her husband being confused. Oddly  he comes from a wealthy family too. He is the least successful of three brothers. He had serious health issues that resulted in learning disabilities and brain damage. His parents  and brothers tease him and I shudder at the things they say.  Then they say dismiss it all by laughing. However, they give the young couple cars, holidays to the Grande Caicus Islands etc.
There is way too much family involvement.

After a few days I am beginning to think I will survive this. I really love my child and I love the new baby. If you asked me to cut off a piece of flesh to change this I would. But this is  a let go and let God time.
Thank you for believing in me. I somehow feel it is all my fault. Gradually, I am seeing how narcissistic my ex and his wife are. I do feel betrayed by my daughter and she does not have empathy for me. It leaves me feeling pretty burned. I see something in her that is not too pretty and very privileged.

This is a crisis and families can be such tornadoes of chaos. I hope and pray that there is some healing here. I am willing to forgive but I am not going to stop talking. I won't press contact and I can't apologize and pretend it is just all my fault. I don't expect to hear from them for a very long time.

Much love,

Sea storm

[lighter]

Seastorm:

I'm so sad to read your story.

That your relationship with your child and grandchild has been coopted is terrible.

I must tell you, when I read that you were attempting to voice your feelings at being treated badly, I knew things were going to go badly for you.

Simply voicing appropriate responses to terrible/hurtful treatment means you'll be labled and/or banished by people who scapegoat and blame others.

Honestly, considering the entire story, it's pretty evil.

One can only hope your daughter will see the truth.

My heart aches for your relationship with your child, truly.

I'd imagine that I'd look/act/feel a bit insane trying to deal with what you've been going through all these years.

It's time to focus on yourself, and take care of you.

For me, I'd write a letter to my daughter, read it then write it over and over again until the pain was less intense and I was less confused about what exactly happened, and how I feel about it.

At some point I'd consider writing a letter I intended to send, but first...... get yourself into a healthier spot.

What happened to you isn't fair and it's not OK. 

At some point, you might choose to remain silent through the insults and bad treatment if you want to be in contact with your child and grandchild in the future.

At least until your daughter figures some of this out for herself.

Some would call it taking the high road.

Some would consider it putting yourself in the line of fire.

Some would consider it asking for abuse.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

(((((Sea))))),

I am so terribly sorry.
I truly understand some of this particular pain.
(Not from exactly the same place, but I know what it's about.)

I am probably too close to this story to advise but I can send you
all my gentle thoughts.

I know how painful rejection is and it is hard to fathom how one
you have loved with all your heart can be the instrument of such heartbreak.

I'm glad you're sensing you must have space to heal now.

It will change, but grief must complete its shape, on all sides.

with much much compassion,
and hope for some ease of heart in each day...

Hops

[seastorm]

Thank you Lighter for your reply.It is evil.  I see that now. No mother  would deserve this. I have often been silent with the insults. Mostly silent. Desperate to be a perfect mother.
There have been lots of times when I was reeling from sending my daughter off on some vacation at Christmas. Especially when she was little. I would cry as she left and look ravaged, I am sure. This would be interpreted as me being a "tragedy queen" or somesuch. No empathy. Just disdain.  I am sick of it. There is no point in colluding with all the lies. And there is no point in not colluding with the lies. I lose my daughter any way it goes.

My days of letting a man yell at me and shame me are over. The funny thing is that I don't deserve the disdain. There is some scapegoating going on but I do not  understand it. I guess the scapegoat is the last to know.

In the past I would have been one of those women who throws herself into the river. Thank god I have learned a lot about the dynamics of narcissism and evil.  I can see it a bit objectively.  I have gone to Al anon and will follow the steps. I have a couple of friends who are supportive and I have you guys who understand this all so profoundly. I have started to practice Budhism and it helps too.

Voicelessness is a terrible thing. I am grateful to have a voice here and to feel respected.

Hops: I can understand now some of what you have gone through with your child. I  have wondered why you are the one your daughter dumps all her anger on. I still don't get it intellectually or emotionally.  I believe in you and I hope you can believe in me. When something like this happens that is part of the horror. The guilt and shame.

Well, I'm laying down the burden. I have no idea how to fix this. It is way too big right now.

Thank you for standing by me.

Love,
Sea storm

[lighter]

Seastorm:

I experienced one year of my Nsociopath husband jerking my children around.  That's over now, but his family stepped up and did it for a year and a half, in his stead.

There was a trial over Court Ordered Grandparent visitation.

They were allowed to see the girls without a asking for Court Ordered visitation, however, they were dead set on being innapropriate during visits.  They wanted the government to declare a police state in my Living Room, and that's what they asked for.

Had they been willing to just play the game a little, they might have had an easier/longer go of it, but the girl's T eventually figured them out, and recommended short, supervised, videotaped and recorded visits only.

Right now, they've got an active case open in another county, this time asking for custody.  The Judge was angry that they didn't disclose the first trial over GP visitation. 

It's hard to know when picking up your child and running away screaming like your hair's on fire is the right path to take.

I think you were at that path, and should have taken it after your divorce.

That your'e kind and rational and wanted your daughter to have a relationship with her father was where you went wrong.

It makes you an easy victim, bc you stand still and play fair.

What I learned is to give no quarter....... I can't hand over my children to people who make promises with a smile on their face w/o intention to honor them, adn I won't be considering it in the future.

It's counter intuitive to deny children relationships to family, but in cases like these......... it's absolutely necessary to protect the innocent.

Perhaps your daughter's education will help her figure this out.

You have keep the faith that her father will eventually show her his true face.

Please research boundaries and keep yourself emotionally safe in any case.

Lighter

[seastorm]

If I could go back knowing what I know now, I would have vanished with my daughter and not tried to support a relationship between the two of them. I did not know what alcohol and cocaine do to a man's mind. I did not know that he would be rich.
I hope someone can learn from this.

Exposing a child to a family entrenched in drug and alcohol culture is a bad idea.

I am calming down now after a few days and support from friends. I am going for a new knee at the end of the month.
I will always be open to talking with my daughter but I am not going to pretend nothing happened. We all went Opera. The situation became hysterical and my daughter and her husband freaked out. I freaked out and left the house. If this was an opening into deeper understanding and we were able to talk about it, then ok.  The rule seems to be don't talk about it.
Or that I don't have a legitimate point of view. I am way too hurt to talk about it right now anyway. This is not the first time I have been scapegoated. It has happened at work too. When that happened I finally realized that I had to get out after eleven years. It is hard to believe in myself but I do. It is a very hard world when you lose your daughter and her new baby girl. They live five thousand miles away.

I am finding strength by giving it up to God. I am tapping when the pain is bad. I am talking about it and resting. I am feeding an army of birds that I can see out my window. I watch the big river flowing and try to let this all go. I am giving up on trying to fix it.
I have no energy and feel very sad. But at least it is bearable now.

How do people get through something this big?

[debkor]

Hi Sea,

Your D is 33 years old now.  I do wonder if she is in a bit of denial (about F).  Can he, could he? Have hidden his drug abuse that well?

If or she does not know about (F) can you imagine (how shocking) what trauma ..she would have?   Do you think that maybe, just maybe,
she can't go there (right now) she may be comfortably numb in denial.  You know you, I, everyone on this board can.

You know Sea there is nothing more to make you think outside (my mom or my dad) and what they meant to you ....then getting married yourself and having children yourself.   You see them as individual's (a wife married to a husband) with all the (problems, stress, normal and abnormal things) that anyone can have (with each other).   And you start to think....Wow, Dad was a bit of a Jerk...or Wow mom was a bit of a jerk, or WoW...I didn't know (crap) other then ....what I knew.   And then your mad, feel betrayed,  or comfortably numb, and start to think ......which makes you uncomfortable.  You need time to baby step (and go there).

When you go there with (your feelings) which are different then the other's (her preceptions are her preceptions) with her truth (what she lived) can cause...hysteria, fights, flee,....as your's does.  You know your truth Sea.  She does not.  You have kept her safe (from the real truth) all these years.

I can read from your (post) (JMO) that your D wanted you there.  The only time I read (your D having a problem with you) is when you went in to (make peace) with her husband.  He should stay out of your relationship with your D or where and what you two want to do with it or where to go with it.  Then she backed him up (when it became confrontational).   

You said you would leave in the morning.  He said you would leave that night.  Your D was looking for a hotel for you.  A nice, safe one, at that and would pay for it.  You asked if it was by the airport?  She said, she didn't know.  She grabbed her keys to drive you.  Her husband told her no she had to take care of the baby.  She said, she did, had time, wanted to drive you.  He said, no.  She I assume (was annoyed with him) but backed down.  A cab showed up (she didn't call, you didn't call, and her husband must of called).

Maybe the only thing she is lacking is Real Truth and Voice.   Maybe he is her voice (out of protection for his wife) without a clue and where he does not belong (with good intentions) but ....everything a mess. 

Maybe she did want to talk with you alone (the ride to the hotel).  She has a lot on her plate (much confusion) and really....No truth or twisted truth....that she grew up till 33 years old.  She does not know the truth (of it all) and neither do you.  I think that is why she became so angry with you about (her step mom).  And I do and would feel as you did, Sea.  I would be so hurt (as the mother who gave birth to her and loved her with every part of my being) and what you kept from her (for her benefit). 

I think she may be going through or beginning to go through or being right where (all of us on this board) has been at.......at one time.

You know how that goes, feels, and how long it takes ....to get where we need to go or come out of where we have been.

So how do you get through something this big?   You face the truth, you feel the pain, and you walk through hell and back.

She may only have begun (that journey) as you are yourself now.

I'm so sorry for your pain.  I know you are hurting terrible.

I really wish for you to find some peace.  For both you and your D.

Love
Deb



 

[seastorm]

Hi Sea,

Your D is 33 years old now.  I do wonder if she is in a bit of denial (about F).  Can he, could he? Have hidden his drug abuse that well?

Yes, a lot of it was hidden. The money in the shoes she told me about when she was eight. She knows her dad's cousin dies of a drug (heroin) overdose. Some of her dad's friends went to prison but she does not know that they were connected to him. She has not been able to bear my saying anything bad about her dad so I don't. Her husband does not know any of this. My daughter told him that one reason I was not happy with my ex was because he did not pay child support regularly or pay a fair amount. Her husband said that this was very, very bad. My daughter was shocked at the strength of her husband's disapproval. I think my daughter's psyche could not stand to hear all the horror stories. My ex husbands young wife goes along happily with it all. My husband is out "playing golf" everyday. She believes it all and does not question. In fact, she looks really happy and helps bring the clan together.  Superficially, their family looks good. They look like frigging movie stars. They are happy, happy, happy according to the facebook stuff. Nice parties, birthdays that last for days, holidays, good humour. It really does seem that they are the cream of  the crop.  However.......... there are bodies buried. I mean this symbolically.



If or she does not know about (F) can you imagine (how shocking) what trauma ..she would have?   Do you think that maybe, just maybe,
she can't go there (right now) she may be comfortably numb in denial.  You know you, I, everyone on this board can.

You are right. I don't think she can go there. She really does not want her husband to know. She mentioned that if his family knew the criminal background of her family, it would be very bad.

You know Sea there is nothing more to make you think outside (my mom or my dad) and what they meant to you ....then getting married yourself and having children yourself.   You see them as individual's (a wife married to a husband) with all the (problems, stress, normal and abnormal things) that anyone can have (with each other).   And you start to think....Wow, Dad was a bit of a Jerk...or Wow mom was a bit of a jerk, or WoW...I didn't know (crap) other then ....what I knew.   And then your mad, feel betrayed,  or comfortably numb, and start to think ......which makes you uncomfortable.  You need time to baby step (and go there).


Yes, Deb, that is very true. I don't want to drop a bomb on her life. I don't want to beat her up with the TRUTH. I think that the truth will come out eventually.  I think I have to let that happen. OR If my daughter or her husband ask, I will tell them.


When you go there with (your feelings) which are different then the other's (her preceptions are her preceptions) with her truth (what she lived) can cause...hysteria, fights, flee,....as your's does.  You know your truth Sea.  She does not.  You have kept her safe (from the real truth) all these years.


Yes, we are living in very different perceptions of the past. My daughter said the past is dead history. I guess to her it is. I am the one stuck with the repercussions.


I can read from your (post) (JMO) that your D wanted you there.  The only time I read (your D having a problem with you) is when you went in to (make peace) with her husband.  He should stay out of your relationship with your D or where and what you two want to do with it or where to go with it.  Then she backed him up (when it became confrontational).   

That is partially true. Her husband was very uptight and banging cupboards etc right from when I arrived. Basically, I am not welcome. It was a shock to me how cold he was. My daughters step mom and the stepmoms sister had been there for eight days. They have tons of money. They cooked and cleaned etc and were very helpful. I dont know what the stepmom said exactly except she said that she had nothing to talk to me about at all. We would not be talking about how my daughter was doing, there would be zero communication. This is how it has been since my daughter was eight.


You said you would leave in the morning.  He said you would leave that night.  Your D was looking for a hotel for you.  A nice, safe one, at that and would pay for it.  You asked if it was by the airport?  She said, she didn't know.  She grabbed her keys to drive you.  Her husband told her no she had to take care of the baby.  She said, she did, had time, wanted to drive you.  He said, no.  She I assume (was annoyed with him) but backed down.  A cab showed up (she didn't call, you didn't call, and her husband must of called).

That is true. She looked crestfallen when he told her she had to stay home. It dawned on me that the taxi was called by her husband. This seems really harsh in so many ways.


Maybe the only thing she is lacking is Real Truth and Voice.   Maybe he is her voice (out of protection for his wife) without a clue and where he does not belong (with good intentions) but ....everything a mess. 


This could be the truth of it. He is blind to what happened and why I cant stand to be around the stepmom and resent her taking over. I did not think that she was the mother figure until now. Good God.




I am not sure what you mean by " and neither do you".  I guess there is no way to tease out the truth because of the no talk rule.


Maybe she did want to talk with you alone (the ride to the hotel).  She has a lot on her plate (much confusion) and really....No truth or twisted truth....that she grew up till 33 years old.  She does not know the truth (of it all) and neither do you.  I think that is why she became so angry with you about (her step mom).  And I do and would feel as you did, Sea.  I would be so hurt (as the mother who gave birth to her and loved her with every part of my being) and what you kept from her (for her benefit). 

I think she may be going through or beginning to go through or being right where (all of us on this board) has been at.......at one time.

You know how that goes, feels, and how long it takes ....to get where we need to go or come out of where we have been.

So how do you get through something this big?   You face the truth, you feel the pain, and you walk through hell and back.


Yes, that is what I think I will have to do. Let her go and stay out of it until she gains maturity and sees things for what they are. I mean the secrets and lies.

She may only have begun (that journey) as you are yourself now.

I'm so sorry for your pain.  I know you are hurting terrible.

Yes, the pain of banishment from her life is awful. This is the price to be paid for marrying a narcissist who is probably a sociopath too. I was very naive. The past few years have opened my eyes to the outcomes of loving narcissists and working for them. I am not sure why I am on this path. I certainly know a lot about this subject. It is much harder to apply the knowledge to myself. I have done the work though and try to take responsibility for my part in it.

I really wish for you to find some peace.  For both you and your D.

Your understanding and caring is so dear to me. I really would be lost if I could not understand the situation and have some objectivity. The caring means so much to my heart. Thank you.

Sea storm

Love
Deb



 

[Hopalong]

Sea, I'm so glad Deb wrote you (heart like a river).

I could add one thing...seems to me perhaps your D is flooded and unable to cope with your information sharing and your emotional expressiveness. What comes naturally to you--truth and powerful expressions of your feelings and pain--may actually feel like attacks (unconsciously) to her.

What it reminded me of is conversations I've had with my counselor as I begin to deal with the new distance between myself and my D. We're in tenuous touch. I was asking him, what is the right thing to say/do when I hear from her that won't drive her further away, while we're hopefully healing...his answer was one rule:

Leave out your emotions.

At first, over and over, I felt, What? Then...I got it. And for the most part, it's working. If I contact her or leave a message (as I used to) that's all anguish-y, all about how WORRIED or SAD or HURT or CONCERNED or ANXIOUS or MISSING HER I am, those cause her to shut down. (I actually get it now. If I were she, I wouldn't want those either, to heck with my "rights" to have feelings.)

Instead, I leave calm, simple, neutral messages that include a reminder of love but are otherwise just simple "I'm here"--and I do them once a week: Just checking in, hope things are going well. Was thinking about you, hope the cats are liking the new space. Call when you can, love you.

That kind of thing. That's it. That's all I allow myself. No emotional letters or emails either. Literally, a postcard. Or, a practical email--here's a coupon you use. And it has begun to work. NO drama. (I have plenty of emotion about her, including a great deal of grief--but I'm restricting that expression to a few places. Counselor, a couple trusted friends at church, VESMB.) And she does get in touch.

It's been part of untangling the over-enmeshed "friend" relationship that she objected to. As cruel as she was, she was right about that. So as just "mother" and not "equal" or "friend" -- at least for the next decade or so I'm sure -- my role is to leave my own emotions out of it, because my D is not here on earth to make me feel emotionally better about anything. She is here to cope with her own life and learn her own lessons, and she has a hard enough time doing that without the added feeling that she is responsible for preventing me from feeling emotional distress.

(On the other hand, there was outright cruelty and emotional abusiveness from her when she was in crisis and staying here, and it was my job to call that for what it was. And I am responsible for taking care of myself in that way. However belatedly, I did push back and set new boundaries.)

Anyway, our situations differ in big ways but I hoped that might be helpful, this one thing I've learned. "Leave your emotions out.."

It doesn't mean that's what I want. It just means that if I want my D in my life at all, I have to get a grip on my feeling that I am entitled to express my feelings any time, any where. Sure, it's a free country...but I still have choices to make.

It's not that they SHOULD be, but my emotions are toxic to my daughter. At least, now. So, I no longer tell her stories of her father or stepfather unless she asks, and I no longer tell her stories of my own life or emotions either. I'm just a person who loves her who displays self-control and calm. And has nothing powerful or intense to say. Just mild, steady, regular. Loving but not intensely so.

(I'm faking it half the time. And, for us, for right now, my counselor says--fake is just fine.)

I'm learning new habits. It feels better to me too. (My grieving still has to happen--just out of her sight.)

I hope when she is ready, she'll know you are there for her, and that you can heal or manage your own emotions in the meantime in ways that won't destabilize her. Sounds like she's in a very difficult marriage and she is going to have to work her own way through.

love to you, and much understanding,
Hops

[seastorm]

There is great wisdom here. Many sides of the crystal.

Hops,

I hear you. Her canoe is full to the brim and one more push would be too much. Even a tiny one.
My emotions seem to be toxic to my daughter too.
For both our sakes I need to get back to being grounded and liking myself. What I see mirrored in her face is something I dread. I don't want to be happy and ignore it or try desperately to fix it.
This is too big for me. I am grieving and it comes over me in the morning and the middle of the night.
When I think of you Hops, I think of such a good person. It baffles me that your daughter feels and acts the way she does. Maybe because you are good and strong, she can do this. Maybe it has to happen for the whole history of the family that you are only barely aware of. It does not make sense, given what I know.

I have this person who I imagine is a very wise person. She is an old native woman I saw in a documentary. I think her name was Alberta.  She lived with barely anything. The radio which played CBC was plugged into the same socket as the bare light bulb.
She was smoking fish. She was very isolated. She was so quiet, direct, humble and outside of the bs of the world. She needed so little to be content. Her life had been very big with many children, she  had been a midwife at times. She is my hero.
A refuge and a guidepost.  Just her being in the world is enough.

You are one of those people. Feeling things deeply, behaving with grace and integrity.

I will try to be like that too.

I have a little trouble with being silent. Not sure about that. But what I have been doing sure isnt working. Time to switch horses, podnar.

Love,
Sea storm

[lighter]

Seastorm:

It always amazes me how differently people react to me when I'm:

a) Stating the honest truth, or.....

b) Talking about the truth without any emotion at all; without willing things to be different, or appearing to be affected by the behavior.

That's how I interpret the interaction between me, and people who don't have a good grasp of personality disorders.  You can be clear and honest with people "who get it."

If I seem emotionally hooked into something, speaking from a), then I'm dismissed and labled.

If I appear not to be affected, choice b), I find I have a rapt audience who asks to hear more more more.

It's like they're enthralled by someone who has the serenity to BE OK under such trying cirucmstances.... they know they couldn't remain serene themselves given the same situation.

If I choose style a) I'm typically asked what I did to receive such and such treatment...... or they assume I must be exaggerating, and come unhinged emotionally.

If I choose style b), which isn't something I've mastered yet, people speak to me as though I'm a Zen Master they want to be closer to and understand.

Neither (a  nor (b is who I am.  It's frustrating that we have to learn a new language in order to be understood, but that seems to be the case, if we're lucky enough to find understanding at all.
I hope that makes sense.

Lighter

[seastorm]

Yes, I guess some people automatically tune out people who sound emotional. You are right about the thing about sounding detached and Zen Masterish. if you don't really feel too emotional, it is easier to listen.

I've been listening to a Tibetan monk and he says don't get hooked into emotion especially if it is anger. Treat it like a gift that you politely decline. There is all too much saintliness required in my situation. At this time I am backing off into silence or non emotional responses because I feel like I've been attacked by a pitbull and then people have said "So what".

There is a lot to be said about timing and not adding fuel to fires etc. I have learned a lot from this experience. For one thing I am no longer in the dark and I know what is going on. It is not a pretty picture but I have no control over it.
I look back and I don't know if I should have told her what was going on or not. I thought I could protect her. Instead, now she prefers my ex and his family. That is her right as an adult. I see that now.

I better get my own life.


Sea storm