Conflict over nothing or something

[Meh]

Today, in a community garden on public property I had a verbal argument that totally escalated beyond any normal level of respect or politeness.

I was designated some space in a community lot to garden by a person that identified themselves to me as the contact person for the project. I signed paperwork to participate, was given some seeds to plant. The space is a dreary untended area. I went out there and planted flowers and worked on weeding for hours.

A few days later a woman comes over to me and identifies herself as the coordinator of the program. She is pissed off that I have been liberally contributing flowers and vegetables into the space. I told her that I was given paperwork to sign and seeds by someone else who by the way also has a connection with the program. The woman verbally badgers me because apparently she feels that I am taking over what she feels belongs to her even though it is public property for a community program. Of course at this point I don't feel very communal or like contributing very much any longer.

I was actually the first person to go out there and to actively put energy into the area and participate, an elderly lady even made a really pleasant comment about how she appreciated the flowers I had planted.  

This is like some sort of story I have heard of in newspapers about people fighting over property lines and dog poop.

It's not the highest priority in my life yet I love to garden. I have also noticed that to participate in life is to draw attention to oneself and to open up the possibility of conflict.

This is not a complete description, probably because I'm too tired right now. I got into a concert tonight.

So I'm opening this post up for commenting even though it's not really about Narcissism that I can tell--many conflict situations become very interesting and trigger the experience of voicefullness or voicelessness.

The self appointed coordinator actually summoned a mediator out into the garden space. The self appointed coordinator didn't seem pleased at the result of that because the mediator didn't "put me in my place". There was also a third party who witnessed the interaction before the "mediator" stepped in. The third party witness told me along with another person that the "self appointed coordinator" is over reaching.

This lady who is the coordinator made a point of telling me how she is getting some kind of educational credits or something for the work she is doing with the community. Gardening is in theory therapeutic but when this lady came over to me and escalated an argument I thought it was enough bad energy to stunt the vegetables I had just planted. Yikes.

Originally I was hoping that weeding and putting in flowers would encourage more people to come and start gardening but that is one way of thinking, the thinking I had before the arguement and now my thinking is turned off to the idea because I can feel my "energy" if you will change around this woman, my energy goes into zig zag line shapes----when I am just with the plants my energy is more like a beautiful expansive color, when I am with other people getting along with them my energy is more carefull but sometimes playful.

Should I feel this stressed around a person who is in theory doing a positive-community building activity? She certainly isnt building community with me.

No, that is not the real question. The real question is shall I fight with this woman? Shall I make an effort to hold my own in life in all situations.....can I choose to hold my own and at the same not experience an energetic drain? I just doubt it.
This part is just a question to myself here.

I really think I need more background on the history of the program and how she became the coordinator.
I have rocked the boat even when I thought I was putting out creative and nurturing energy I have rocked the big old bad squeeky boat.

Community is hard ---uh I think I'm going to grow me a set of you-know-whats for this one. (turnips)

Or maybe I just focus on something else, the beauty of me is that I have way too many interests in life....more things then I can possibly do and I keep myself busy one way or another.

I'm not exactly seeking advice or support so much as I'm just interested in this as an example of conflict and another person attempting to take the position of "THE VOICE"

I have the feeling it's going to backfire on her, how can it not?

Avid gardeners can be fanatic. I would be one of those weird fanatics but still willing to participate communally to a degree in my own way based on how much I feel I can give and how much I feel I don't have to give. My personal voice and power is too much to give away.

[sKePTiKal]

I gotta ask questions first: how important to you is your garden? and the type of energy you put into/derive from it? How important is it, that people come up and actually thank you and appreciate what you've done?

Why would you let some controlling, aggressive (and quite possibly officially out of line) self-nominated bitch tell you what you can/can't do in your own space? And please, I hope you do "hold your ground" and continue to relish the energy that comes from your effort and not let the conflict change that... sure you could move on to another plot of ground, metaphorically speaking... just build in your mind a force field around you, your garden, that keeps the conflict lady "out" of your space.

Holding your ground; standing up for yourself; defending what is you, yours - your space... is not aggressive or hostile or bad. It might feel like it or even feel scary... my anxiety goes sky-high, too... but it's possible to breathe through that. More later - the answers to the questions are important, I think. For you.

[Hopalong]

Hate to be such a dimwit, but I don't understand the rules, or what the conflict was about.

Can you clarify? If you were not planting outside of your assigned garden plot, I'm not sure I grasp the nature of the supposed infraction. Was that it? You enthusiastically planted "outside your square"? If that's it well, heck, can you transplant, move them back to your plot? Just make your own spot beautiful and inspire by example?

Maybe you felt you were contributing to general beauty but it was outside the space assigned to you? I'm guessing.

Perhaps this person only feels safe if people are coloring gardening "inside the lines"? Because what if there were random acts of beauty! Or, she feels safe when everybody respects the structure assigned, because then she knows how to do it.

I think fighting with her is not worth it, in my view, because you describe such deep connection to planting and growing and earth, and it would be an unnecessary loss for you to be cut off from this opportunity to do it, to be healed by it, to enjoy it.

I'd recommend seeing her as operating out of fear, and don't let her fear contaminate what is for you, a beautiful and restorative activity.

Just breathe and don't let her become a symbol of All That Represses You. Instead let her be a sort of fearful bureaucrat and understand it's easier to nod and cooperate and let her move along, move along...

Hops

[Meh]

Hops:

Hate to be such a dimwit, but I don't understand the rules, or what the conflict was about.

Can you clarify? If you were not planting outside of your assigned garden plot, I'm not sure I grasp the nature of the supposed infraction. Was that it? You enthusiastically planted "outside your square"?

Yes, that is part of it sort of. There are two coordinators apparently that don't get along and have told me two different things about "rules". Part of the problem is that I don't have a "rule list" AND it seems that the coordinator that argued with me has taken it upon herself to change the rules from what they were the previous year so it is a typical community battle like what happens in neighborhood planning meetings where generally something positive is happening but people fight over who gets to make decisions and who gets credit.

It's public property and a community program but the coordinator thinks that means she has control over all of the people in the program.

I sort of get that, I mentored students in a book publications class when I was younger and I had to learn how to facilitate but allow the students their own vision. It was letting go of complete authorship of the creative outcome and that is part of the problem she doesn't get that.

Yes, I did plant out of my mini-plot in an area that is not assigned to anyone, so the fight is sort of territory but I did not plant in another person's plot. There are areas that are covered with weeds and not cultivated, I went in and weeded and planted.

Fortunately for me people see me out there and they know that I put a lot of effort into making it nice for everyone and I think that counts for something. I'm still the only person who has planted anything yet.

[Meh]

Don't give up gardening.  The people around you probably need you to be strong and grow your seeds. community is forged in many ways.  Scott Peck says that true community is impossible to forge without successfully navigating conflict--I think he may be right.

Love
CB

I like that quote by Scott Peck. That sounds very true. Thank you for sharing that.

I'm very intrigued to see how this turns out.

 

 

[Meh]

I gotta ask questions first: how important to you is your garden? and the type of energy you put into/derive from it? How important is it, that people come up and actually thank you and appreciate what you've done?

Why would you let some controlling, aggressive (and quite possibly officially out of line) self-nominated bitch tell you what you can/can't do in your own space? And please, I hope you do "hold your ground" and continue to relish the energy that comes from your effort and not let the conflict change that... sure you could move on to another plot of ground, metaphorically speaking... just build in your mind a force field around you, your garden, that keeps the conflict lady "out" of your space.

Holding your ground; standing up for yourself; defending what is you, yours - your space... is not aggressive or hostile or bad. It might feel like it or even feel scary... my anxiety goes sky-high, too... but it's possible to breathe through that. More later - the answers to the questions are important, I think. For you.

Yes, Gardening is very nurturing for me.

Yes, I don't own the space, not my yard.

Yes, my life has been changing a lot and is unsettled.

Yes, I think I like the idea of cheering up a communal city scape garden.

Yes, I can't invest too much into anything.

Yeah, it does feel really good when people walk by and say encouragements to me. It feels like a very constructive activity for the community.


The coordinator did say that I treated her badly to the mediator. The mediator told me that she didn't believe that. The witness also didn't report me mistreating anybody.

There is something that is vindicating about this experience. BECAUSE with Narcissism or whatever personality issue--what has been reflected back to me often in conflicts is that "I'm bad"---"I'm wrong" etc.  

That is my experience of conflict: CONFLICT is dangerous AND I am BAD AND I AM making a PROBLEM if I don't GO ALONG

Further more this is an extension of my experience of choosing what people I want to have in my life and at what level. I mean we don't have that choice 100% percent because people are there no matter what. But is similar to the issue with relatives and toxic people and people that are attention seeking etc.

[Meh]

In the long run though, I had to decide whether I would step back or push forward.  Each has its own negatives, in both my situation and yours...Ultimately, I decide based on what I WANT to do. Love
CB

YES that is definitely what I am getting at with this.

It feels selfish and out-of-line for me to Do What I Want to Do.

Or another question to self "Will I be attacked if I do what I want to do" or "Will I be harmed by the inevitable attack"

Or another question "How many more times will I choose to NOT do what I want to do because I will be attacked."

I do use the word attack because that is what the verbal argument felt like. My experience was that she was going to tell me how it is and I have to go along with it and she is going to find faults with me etc.

I'm hypersensitive to this because my FOO was so controlling over me that now when I'm around a controlling person I can't just nod. I don't know how to do that or want to do that. Dominating people trigger me.

Anyways thanks for humoring my processing. I figure this is a somewhat mild and safe conflict to pursue/explore even aggravate?

I mean I'm not initiating contact with her but if she chooses to initiate contact with me and it's not cooperative and pleasant and if its twisted then I have the right to smile and aggravate her....No?   Te He He

In other words it's a further exploration of the right to not be "nice" to appease another person. I would prefer that she not like me and that she would move back away from me. That is my preference right now.

What is the fight over, it's not about dirt that we don't own. It's probably not really about food consumption. It's really about power and who has a "right". She has a right and I have a right.

Any-who got to go.

[sKePTiKal]

Thanks for your answers - and sharing how you're you are thinking/feeling about this conflict, Boat. All that rocks, for me! (hee-hee)

I've got my own conflict going on, right now... and like you I feel it's time I let other people know I have rights that I don't have to give away, simply to smooth things over & "get along", according to someone else's plan. I have done this so many times, in these situations, I deserve to have "doormat" tattoo'd on my forehead. It's pretty clear that's what my FOO always expects of me.

But what to do, about all the peacekeepers who encourage one to back down? When that's the least healthy (or positive even) outcome for oneself? When making that stand is absolutely essential for one's own progress to healing, how much credence does one owe to the philosophy that "the bigger person gives way" or backs down, for the sake of peace? And as a consequence, only reinforces the old habit in oneself, and expectation of others that one will continue avoiding conflict - at one's own expense, usually, too.

I mean, if there's a time to walk away... doesn't that also mean, there's a time to stand your ground; stand up for, declare, and defend your rights?

When does "turning the other cheek" and "letting it go or slide" become self-destructive?

Rhetorical questions; you don't need to give me an answer to these. I'm just sharing back some of what my thought process about conflict is, right now. I'd love to FIND an answer, mind you... but I have a sneaking suspicion that it's one of those things that's situational, and depends on whether a person can live with all the possible outcomes (that one can think of - there are always some one can't anticipate or predict).

Your thought process about this, is helping mine get past some of the old habits and brainwashing; I wasn't inherently the person who would always back down - that was forced on me, by the MomBro.

[BonesMS]

I remember hearing the following comment from an acquaintance who was a member of the clergy:

"Turning the other cheek doesn't give license to someone to kick you down." 

Gave me a lot to think about.

[Meh]

But what to do, about all the peacekeepers who encourage one to back down? When that's the least healthy (or positive even) outcome for oneself? When making that stand is absolutely essential for one's own progress to healing, how much credence does one owe to the philosophy that "the bigger person gives way" or backs down, for the sake of peace? And as a consequence, only reinforces the old habit in oneself, and expectation of others that one will continue avoiding conflict - at one's own expense, usually, too.

Yep, I think this is interesting. Socially some standard says that it's mature to get along YET at the same time for people that always had to GO ALONG it is growth/new to experience not going along.

Another thing is carefulness in relationships, I've had some people be very careful with me in how they approach me when first getting to know me and then I've met other people who are more aggressive from the get go and it almost boils down to basic animal behavior like a dog. Dogs that are getting to know each other will sniff at each other carefully--it's a who are you? Where have you been....

Or there are dogs that will just be on attack mode right away there is not that preliminary getting to know a person.

So with this particular person that I had the argument with there wasn't a process of getting to know. Her energy from the first day that I choose to "not make time" for her was something that I perceived with my antenna as being an aggressive/disruptive energy that was being projected out from her. I thought "No, I'm busy, I'm tired, I'm chilling out, I've got my own problems, Goodbye"

The other part of this, is that when the mediator did not take her side (mediator stayed neutral) she then made the statement that she wanted to relinquish some of her coordinator responsibilites.

I know this one---"If I can't have it exactly the way I think it should be I won't have it at all"
I know this because I have had this type of thinking before also.

I think the underlying message is suppose to be a punishment by retraction or "Now I won't do anything for you- AND you will find out how much you need me" Or something like that.

Is that like a threat of abandonment?

[Meh]

I remember hearing the following comment from an acquaintance who was a member of the clergy:

"Turning the other cheek doesn't give license to someone to kick you down." 

Gave me a lot to think about.

I agree. We all have the right to our own space and time regardless if others respect that or not---IT IS their problem if they don't have the correct social tactfullness to navigate around others delicately.

I mean my suggestions to remedy the situation sound pretty assinine. Most of what I planted outside of my box was meant to be communual. There is one little area of bok choi that I didn't really want to share because I want to eat it--BUT the other vegetables and flowers were meant for everybody. She pretty much complained about that fact that I had planted so much stuff, "I'm taking over" Even though she hasn't planted anything in her box, her garden is close by and ITS EMPTY.

So it's really childish but it's fun to think about.

I volunteered to remove the plants I had planted that were meant to be "community plants"--lots of beans and squash--
SO SHE could plant "community vegetables" that are meant for everyone. ??? Does that make any sense.....Uh....no.

Maybe I am understanding better why undefined community doesnt work well. There often is, not always, but often the question of who gets what, who does what, what benefit do I get out of it, how much credit do I get, what decisions do I make?

There is no such thing as everybody--everybody means first come first served.

If I ever had to organize something like this I would post the rules outside so that it's clear to every person what the expectations are before they start. I would clearly define what is personal area versus "community area" and I would explain what the community area meant. So I'm putting it back on her, Why not? She has taken some responsibility upon herself without implementing the correct actions in dealing with an amorphous community group.

I guess it's a learning experience for everyone all the way around.   





 

[Meh]

Ok, I think I'm about ready to let this go soon, I have to write one more thing.

Part of this came out of the fact that I'm taking a class that includes exercises in assertiveness. We actually practice saying NO to a partner-student who is asking both reasonable and unreasonable questions.

Can you tell me which direction my dog ran in? Can you loan me your brand new car or a million $'s ? Can I borrow your pen?

We practice saying NO to all of the questions and we take turns asking the questions.

ACCORDING to the instructor of this assertiveness class....it's just our perception that the recipient of the NO will retaliate and get angry....YEAH RIGHT!

My NO's that I have been trying to practice relate to people who come up to me (I'm around A LOT of strangers right now)
and want my attention, want my sympathy, want my food, want to borrow something, want to talk and have someone pay attention to them. There is no etiquette of --maybe  I don't want to know all this "STUFF"--- Or maybe I don't have time right now, maybe I need to go somewhere, maybe I need to go to class, maybe I need to write something, maybe I just want to hear myself think, feel myself breathe without another person making sure that I know how unfair life is to them because they have to go do a mandatory urine analysis...etc.

I so don't want to be a social worker.

It also sets me off that a lot of these people are recovering alcoholics or drug addicts-----and I have had enough of this sort of stuff with my brother and FOO problems.... "Oh child protective services took my children"...."Oh...my husband has this problems......"Oh I cut my finger"......"Oh I don't have any food until I get to the foodbank"....."Oh I need a ride"....

Since I was taking classes, volunteering, working...etc. I do have limited energy for strangers and a limited desire to get to know people AND that is probably peculiar to me. I don't make friends easily...and the concept escapes me sometimes because every person in my life is temporary too--they come and then they go....goodbye....

[Meh]

Noticing the value of the garden to me.

So the few weeks long gig-job I had is over and today I went to the foodbank to pick up supplies. I walk part of the way with the bags, and since there is a limit to how often one can go to the food bank it means I pick up as much as I can. So after waiting in line with people who are a little over aggressive sometimes, yes I now know women who beat the cr@p out of each other--I get back, I make a very good meal and then I'm tired, I fall asleep even though I normally don't nap. When I wake up, I think about should I just go back to sleep or do something. I'm too tired to do anything but then I decide to go weed some more. So I get over to the community garden project and I work and I work and I work busy, I realize that I'm not physically tired I am some sort of emotionally drained. Its very hard to tell the difference between being emotionally drained and physically tired. Again another person compliments the flowers I have planted.

So yeah, I value the activity. If it's something that will get me up and going when I don't feel like getting up and going then that is pretty powerful.

[sKePTiKal]

Hey Boat... I think you're right about this:

I think the underlying message is suppose to be a punishment by retraction or "Now I won't do anything for you- AND you will find out how much you need me" Or something like that.

Is that like a threat of abandonment?

Ironically, most of the time when people make these kinds of threats - I find I was just fine without them; before their butting in or trying to control or whatever. I been askin' myself a lot lately: is it abandonment if someone you have a bad or no relationship with in the first place, goes away? You can probably figure out how I'd answer.

I mean - with boyfriends & husbands and bad relationships - it was straightforward, rational and easy - to either leave myself or tell them to go away. It was extremely clear that I was much better off - despite economic hardship. Empty promises, made and repeatedly broken and refusal to change or acknowledge my right to emotions and viewpoints different than theirs... gone; out of my sight. Toads... not princes... after they'd "got me".

Logically, FOO should be the same way. I'm not sure what's different... but when the relationship is non-existant or that toxic to oneself, it should be relatively as easy to let it go and move on. Shouldn't it? Or is it, that FOO is so internalized in ourselves - that personal narrative history of "when I was 3..." - that it's hard to separate the history from our own self-identity... and then those threats of "abandonment" - whether spoken or unspoken - or cloaked in rejecting, denying behavior toward us, can actually control us. Whether it's us walking away or the FOO abusers. It feels like an annilhation - a death - of part of oneself... and our idea of "survival" requires avoiding that all costs.

I'm just talking out loud here... trying to talk my way through to understanding my own dilemma right now. And your comment about abandonment was just inspiring... it helps! Thank you.

I guess your assertiveness trainer has never met with the kind of retaliation many of us here have experienced, when you tell some people No. She's not got much experience with people who do not accept that others have the same rights that some people ascribe to themselves - and only themselves. That usually requires more than a simple NO to deal with it.

[BonesMS]

But what to do, about all the peacekeepers who encourage one to back down? When that's the least healthy (or positive even) outcome for oneself? When making that stand is absolutely essential for one's own progress to healing, how much credence does one owe to the philosophy that "the bigger person gives way" or backs down, for the sake of peace? And as a consequence, only reinforces the old habit in oneself, and expectation of others that one will continue avoiding conflict - at one's own expense, usually, too.

Yep, I think this is interesting. Socially some standard says that it's mature to get along YET at the same time for people that always had to GO ALONG it is growth/new to experience not going along.

Another thing is carefulness in relationships, I've had some people be very careful with me in how they approach me when first getting to know me and then I've met other people who are more aggressive from the get go and it almost boils down to basic animal behavior like a dog. Dogs that are getting to know each other will sniff at each other carefully--it's a who are you? Where have you been....

Or there are dogs that will just be on attack mode right away there is not that preliminary getting to know a person.

So with this particular person that I had the argument with there wasn't a process of getting to know. Her energy from the first day that I choose to "not make time" for her was something that I perceived with my antenna as being an aggressive/disruptive energy that was being projected out from her. I thought "No, I'm busy, I'm tired, I'm chilling out, I've got my own problems, Goodbye"

The other part of this, is that when the mediator did not take her side (mediator stayed neutral) she then made the statement that she wanted to relinquish some of her coordinator responsibilites.

I know this one---"If I can't have it exactly the way I think it should be I won't have it at all"
I know this because I have had this type of thinking before also.

I think the underlying message is suppose to be a punishment by retraction or "Now I won't do anything for you- AND you will find out how much you need me" Or something like that.

Is that like a threat of abandonment?

OHHHHHHH that "coordinator" is clearly showing Narcissistic behaviors!!!!!  I've seen this "My Way or the Highway" antics before along with passive-aggressive attempts at punishing everyone who has the AUDACITY to REFUSE to bow down and worship their royal Nperson!  BLEH!!!!   

Let this Narcissistic Twit take her cracked marbles, go home, and leave you and your garden in peace!!!!

Bones