Can I ask another question?

[Twoapenny]

Hi guys, can I ask another question of you all?

Sorry, I know I'm asking loads of questions at the minute but I am struggling to work certain things out and I feel like I need to see my T every day at the minute!

I mentioned a while ago that I'd kind of met a guy.  He's someone I knew when I was younger (school age) and we lost touch, then met up again fairly recently.  I felt very safe with him, we chatted for ages, I didn't feel odd/awkward/concerned around him like I usually do with men.

Anyway, this was a couple of months ago.  He lives a three hour drive away which is probably a good thing for me because it means having to take things slow.  However, this is tortoise pace!  We've been chatting on the phone every day, often for an hour at a time.  He also tends to text me to say good morning and good night, which is really sweet (and I've told him I really like this).  He's been saying he's going to come down and visit but hasn't arranged anything yet.  He has friends down here he can stay with so he could come for a couple of days and see his friends/family as well as the two of us getting together.  However, he keeps saying he will but nothing has been organised and when I've asked he's said soon but can't/won't be more specific.  I can't go up there for another month because of money and my son so it's been feeling like we talk on the phone but nothing more than that will come of it.  Also it was me that went up there last time; I don't want to get into a childish sort of 'it's your turn now' but I do feel that as I've made the effort he ought to as well, particularly as it's very early days.

The last couple of days I've hardly heard from him.  He'll reply if I text but isn't texting as he normally would; I called him yesterday and he didn't really have time to talk, said he would call later and didn't.  I knew he was working today so I've left him alone as I know he can't use his phone at work, but I am now feeling the odd/awkward thing that I normally have around men!!

I don't know what 'normal' is?  I don't know if I'm just being silly/over-reacting or if I'm picking up "I'm not interested" signals that I should be taking notice of.  I would like to ask him how he's feeling about where things are with the two of us next time I speak to him but I feel like I want to leave the ball in his court now as I've felt he's not so keen at the mo and I don't want to keep pestering him - maybe he's a bit screwed up like me and needs a bit of space from time to time?

I really don't know how 'normal' people do this stuff so any thoughts or advice from you guys would be great.  Thank you!!

[teartracks]

Hi Two,

See if this approach has any merit or appeal.   If I were the one who posted here asking basically the same questions you're asking, what would your response be?

I almost never respond to questions about dating and romance on the board because I feel unqualified.  So in the above, I'm shooting in the dark.  I know it's hard to wear the other hat (as I'm suggesting) in a situation like the one you describe.

Dating is about choosing, not being chosen.  That's what Dr. Laura says and I think it's true.

tt

[Hopalong]

I'll just whip out the BIBLE of early scary stages in relationships for you...it is worth skipping a meal to get this book, Tupp!

A Fine Romance, by Dr. Judith Sills

It will help. I swear.

xo

Hops

[ann3]

"He also tends to text me to say good morning and good night, which is really sweet (and I've told him I really like this).  He's been saying he's going to come down and visit but hasn't arranged anything yet.  He has friends down here he can stay with so he could come for a couple of days and see his friends/family as well as the two of us getting together.  However, he keeps saying he will but nothing has been organised and when I've asked he's said soon but can't/won't be more specific.  ....... it's been feeling like we talk on the phone but nothing more than that will come of it.  Also it was me that went up there last time; I don't want to get into a childish sort of 'it's your turn now' but I do feel that as I've made the effort he ought to as well, particularly as it's very early days.

The last couple of days I've hardly heard from him. He'll reply if I text but isn't texting as he normally would; I called him yesterday and he didn't really have time to talk, said he would call later and didn't.  ...... but I am now feeling the odd/awkward thing that I normally have around men!!

I don't know what 'normal' is?  I don't know if I'm just being silly/over-reacting or if I'm picking up "I'm not interested" signals that I should be taking notice of.  I would like to ask him how he's feeling about where things are with the two of us next time I speak to him but I feel like I want to leave the ball in his court now as I've felt he's not so keen at the mo and I don't want to keep pestering him - maybe he's a bit screwed up like me and needs a bit of space from time to time?"


Hi two,
I used to feel the way you have described:  what is normal?  I can't understand this guy: his actions do not reflect his words.  Where do I stand?  What can I/should I do?  Am I doing something wrong?  Is he doing something wrong?  It all makes no sense to me, I'm very confused.

I'm no expert, but I've read a lot of books & done a lot of therapy, so this is what I think:  This guy's words do not accurately reflect his actions.  He says he'll come visit, but he does not.  He texts you morning & night, but now he's not communicating with you.  You don't know what he feels or where you stand because he's not communicating with you.  To me, at the very least, he sounds passive-aggressive. 

I think an underlying question/issue is why are you tolerating this behavior?  You know you want & deserve better treatment, we all do.  So, what is "it" within you/me/us that allows us to accept/tolerate bad treatment/bad behavior?  A big part is our lack of self esteem/self worth and thinking we don't deserve better.

Here's a great article called "Warning Signs That You're Dating a Loser" by Joseph M Carver, Ph.D.
http://mental-health-matters.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=171

To gain insight as to why we tolerate & accept this type of behavior, I recommend the book "The Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships" by Patrick J. Carnes
http://www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Bond-Breaking-Exploitive-Relationships/dp/1558745262

Also, take a look at the books Dr. G has posted on this web site.  I think many of them are very helpful

Hope this helps.

[Twoapenny]

Hi TT,

I'm like you, I would think I'm not qualified to answer!  When it comes to men I am like a teenager getting ready to start dating; I don't have a clue and a lot of what I've learnt already is messed up and I need to try and erase it from my memory!  I like the approach of seeing what you would advise someone in the same situation though   Hops, I have ordered that book so hopefully I will be an expert by the end of next week

Ann, I think the underlying problem with me is that I feel so damaged and peculiar around men that I cannot for the life of me imagine a decent one wanting anything to do with me.  I've had quite lengthy discussions with my T about this; I feel like I need to give blokes a list of all my faults so that they can bail out quick asap.  I've been trying not to do this with this guy.  Up until now things have been nice and very different to other guys I've been involved with in the past.  He's been very sweet and caring, he's made me feel very safe, I've really enjoyed chatting with him and have found talking to him interesting as well as funny.  But.......the lack of action with regards actually meeting up has been bothering me and then this whole thing over the weekend has left me reeling.  He's sent me several texts this evening which I haven't replied to; I don't know what I want to say yet so I haven't said anything.  I think the whole not being good enough thing is a problem and I so like someone being nice to me that when they stop I immediately wonder what I did and try and make them be nice again, which is a pattern I've been trying to break for years and do not want to get into again.  I feel like this same thing happens to me with every man I go out with (which is why I haven't done it much for a long time!).  Lots to think about!  Thanks x

[ann3]

Hi Two,
Yes, I understand what you're saying & to me, it sounds like this immediate predicament is a manifestation of a larger issue.  This is why I recommend the The Betrayal Bond book because I think it could help you see the bigger picture.  I wish you all the best.

[Gaining Strength]

But.......the lack of action with regards actually meeting up has been bothering me and then this whole thing over the weekend has left me reeling.  He's sent me several texts this evening which I haven't replied to; I don't know what I want to say yet so I haven't said anything.  I think the whole not being good enough thing is a problem and I so like someone being nice to me that when they stop I immediately wonder what I did and try and make them be nice again, which is a pattern I've been trying to break for years and do not want to get into again.

Twoapenny - I think you are right on the mark to be bothered about the things that are bothering you.  The big red flag to me is that YOU have already gone there and he has not made a plan to come where you are.  This is particularly bothering when he has a place to stay. 

How great would it be if you could rewrite those internal messages about not being good enough with "I am better than this."  You are better and you deserve better.  Don't fall into the trap of thinking, even for one moment that you need THIS guy. If something shifts and it is worth persuing a relationship - GREAT.  But let HIM come to you with an explaination of the shift.  If he doesn't - it would be a sign that you can't expect him to be straight forward and up front.  Even - maybe - especially at this stage, you should only be seeing things that work for you and appeal to you.  These two issues are not small.  They are big.  It is hard to imagine moving towards a relationship with someone who does not seem to be planning to come to see you.  That seems like a big indicator right off the bat.  And the shift in communication without acknowledgement or explaination is worrysome as well.

[teartracks]

Hi Two,

Still feeling unqualified (disclaimer  ), but wanted to add that almost everyone has 'issues'.  He may not have been forthcoming about his, not that he's required to at this stage.  I guess I'm saying that he may be trying to protect you from some known (to him) issues/insecurities (yes, men have them too) in his own life.  On the one hand, he may want to move forward in the relationship while at the same time feel terribly 'unfit' because of who he thinks or knows himself to be.  I think I'd back off a mite, give him more rope and allow him to reveal himself (or not) at whatever pace he desires.  Treat him as if he is a very interesting and well written novel that you want to read slowly as your busy schedule allows.   As the novel unfolds, so will the main character.  As he is revealed, YOU will know whether he is loathsome or adorable and worth your while.

tt

 

[Twoapenny]

Hi again Ann, thanks, I will order that book as well, I will have plenty to read to keep my mind off things

TT and GS, I think/hope I have done things in a way that leaves the door open should there be a positive change.  I don't want to be in a situation with someone (anyone) where I don't really know where I stand and spend time wondering what has happened and why they are/are not doing something.  Texting in particular is so quick and easy I don't understand how anyone can not have time to text; it takes less than a minute to at least tell someone you won't be in touch for a couple of days and it stops all the wondering on the other person's part.

Anyway I have written a text to him this morning basically saying that I think I should have spoken to him about the situation to find out how he feels and re the lack of actual contact because I've now found myself in a situation I'm not comfortable in and I feel I've not been realistic about the two of us.  I've not said that I want to see him/speak to him again or that I do not; I thought if I left it very open then it leaves the ball in his court; if he is having a few 'issues' himself then he has a chance to say that now or do something about it, if he is just chatting with me and has no intention of taking things any further then I feel I've put down the 'get out of jail free' card and things can be left and we can both move on.

I feel like if I ask anyone to do anything for me - even something as simple as visit - then I feel I'm being demanding.  Equally if I expect phone calls or text messages I am expecting too much (an ex boyfriend told me I was impatient and demanding because I got cross when he didn't return my call for almost a week).  I have got to start getting some simple basics in my head and working on making them feel normal.  I think it was the change that bothered me the most; if he'd always been a bit rubbish at phoning and texting I wouldn't have got involved with him anyway but he's been so attentive and then suddenly vanished for 24 hours at a stretch.  I feel a bit like I've been reeled in and now I'm caught he doesn't need to try.  I'm hoping I'm wrong, but I did realise last night that rejection hurts me so much that I've been putting off asking the questions in case I don't like the answers.

Anyway, I haven't sent the text yet, I will wait a couple of hours so if anyone thinks its a terrible idea let me know!  Thanks all, I do feel better for having 'talked it through' with you, another step forward on the journey and hopefully have learnt some good lessons I can use next time around.  Thank you xx

[BonesMS]

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[sKePTiKal]

Dating is about choosing, not being chosen.  That's what Dr. Laura says and I think it's true.

It might be true, once we're "whole" people and it's a valuable practice for anyone who's got FOO issues... but I gotta weigh in on this quote, and say that I know for sure, that deep-deep-deep down I WANT to be CHOSEN. It's those attachment/abandonment issues, for sure. Still - as popeye says - I yam what I yam. And it helps ease up some of the confusion, when I recognize this and accept it about me.

Sure, I believed that I was very picky about relationships and men... high standards & all that. Underneath even my own awareness... I was being driven to be CHOSEN. I think that word, is what struck me in the quote... I wanted a guy to say, demonstrate and go the distance of his own: "I want you".... and for a simple feeling of trust to respond to that... and have everything be OK.

And it pervades all my relationships - a Mother's Day card from hubs' D, that has a note - thanks for being you - written in it... it means a LOT to me, that she's making that gesture and telling me that. My hubs' family... D's friends... new acquaintances...

and it all derives from those attachment/abandonment issues - the FOO and their delusional world - and how I didn't belong there, and therefore I made the mental mistake of thinking I didn't belong anywhere. Totally not true. Another mistake I make, and I have a friend who is this way... is when I've been disappointed in an interaction with a friend - I withdraw and keep that person at arm's length and get in a snit over it. I don't just say  - oh hey where'd you go? I miss you... or let the person know I hoped that I'd hear from them at certain intervals, or whatever... and that's the old "voiceless" - afraid to ask for what I want - and I'm permitted to have these feelings and let the other person know and help come up with a solution. I learned that relationships have "rules" and they are rigid and inflexible (though completely unpredictable and undefined)...

... but I think I'm learning (I hope so at any rate) that there aren't any rules; interactions between people can be very flexible... casual... informal... loose. At least, with some people I'm noticing this.

[Hopalong]

Tupp,
Real quick, in case it helps -- Judith Sill would say, do not send that text.

Because what's happening is okay. It's normal, and it doesn't mean bad/scary things necessarily.

Can't wait for you to read that book...if you can hang on, and read it before you make any more statements to him, you may be glad...

xxoo

Hops

[Gaining Strength]

Anyway I have written a text to him this morning basically saying that I think I should have spoken to him about the situation to find out how he feels and re the lack of actual contact because I've now found myself in a situation I'm not comfortable in and I feel I've not been realistic about the two of us.

What a great move!  That makes so much sense.

PS - I posted this before I read Hops post.  It just makes sense to me.  I want to make it clear that I didn't write this just to say the opposite of Hops - really.

[Twoapenny]

Bonesie, thank you for the hug (((((((((((Bones))))))))))))))))

Phoenix, I think it's this old thing about desperately wanting to be wanted that is a big problem for me - I so want someone to take away that awful feeling of no-one caring that I think it has an influence on most things I do.  I also, like you say, don't tell people that I've missed them/wished they'd phoned/had remembered to do something - in fact I hadn't realised that until I read what you wrote.  It's never occured to me to do that, I've always felt I have no right to expect anything from anyone so I shouldn't ask or mention it in case I make them feel bad.  But now that you've flagged it up it's actually quite nice if someone says "I missed you yesterday, why didn't you come?"  You're showing them you want them in your life as well as actually mentioning that they didn't do something without it sounding like a criticism.  I think this may be my new thing to practise, I hardly ever tell peple if I'm upset they didn't call or something.

Hops - too late!  I sent it this morning.  But.............we've swapped a few texts; he has said that he is aware my life is pretty tough and he has a few problems of his own so he wanted to take things slowly and not add to my problems - I'm not sure what those problems are and whether or not they would be a problem for me.  But he has said he didn't realise it was so slow it made me think he didn't care.  He said he doesn't want things to end before they've really begun so we are going to have a long chat later on and be honest with each other.  This is very new territory for me, I have never had an 'honest' chat with a man before.  I don't know how it will go and what will happen but I feel this is a step in the right sort of direction, but I really want to read that book now!

GS - I feel like either way now I have done things I haven't done before - I've asked for advice, I've taken a bit of time out to think about what I need and what I want, I've tried to communicate that and hopefully later we will have a chat about it - even if the outcome is that we call it a day now I feel like I've moved a step closer to life making a bit more sense.  Anyway I will let you all know what happens later!  Thank you everyone

[Twoapenny]

Morning all,

Well we have had a conversation!  We are both looking for similar things, both scared of the same things and have both kept quiet for fear of scaring the other one off.  We've both agreed we need to talk more!  We have now made a definite plan for him to come and visit (in the next two weeks) and to talk properly about what we want, where we'd like this to go and what we both need to do with that in mind.  It's the first time I've ever had a conversation with someone and not been told the whole situation is my fault or that I'm being unreasonable/demanding/impatient etc.  So where it will go from here and what will happen is anyone's guess but I do feel that I have had my first ever adult conversation about a (possible) relationship with someone who has at least listened, responded and made some effort to move things in the right direction.  Am trying to focus on a day at a time but I feel happier than I did over the weekend which is a good thing!  Anyway thank you everyone for all of your help and I'll keep you posted! xx