Pain + Avoidance --> self-abuse

[sKePTiKal]

Hummus is "superfood", tt...

protein, fiber, it doesn't spoil easily in the hot humid NC summers... lemon juice gives it Vit C... garlic is an antioxidant (and good for circulation, heart, BP and even some stomach issues)....

what's not to like? 

So, the miracle of modern medicine is that the worst pain I felt during the root canal was having more xrays taken and from having to keep my mouth open so long - my jaw is still recovering. A couple more weeks - and that pain will be HISTORY when they replace the temp filling with the permanent one.

---------------------------
So why isn't dealing with emotional pain just as straightforward? When it stops hurting - you eventually forget it ever did and it doesn't have a seat with a name on it, taking up space in your thoughts/feelings anymore. CAN it be that straightforward and I just don't know the secret of how to do that? Does the kind of ruminating that CB is talking about on her thread... only prolong our agony? If so, is that because we think there is a "magic answer" somewhere in those situations that is yet to be discovered... and that we must "try harder, work smarter, be patient & persistent, and open our eyes to it"? And we just can't accept the face value of the situation... it is what it is... and no more than that?

------------------------------------

Tolerable risk, nice one. I was thinking about tolerating ambiguity; rather off down my own meandering nonsense path, thinking about 'trust' and 'loyalty'. Ambiguity pays a big part of course.

I wondered if there's more trust for someone I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw them vs. I wouldn't trust them as far as I can spit. Maybe they're the same distance/difference now that I'm not as strong as I used to be.

Guest, I think you've described my agony in the simple phrase: tolerating ambiguity. For me, ambiguity is the source-irritant that begets over-thinking and anxiety. It's truly not a comfortable place to live life from, at all. Yet, when all the pieces of relationships and situations are whirling around me in an emotional tornado -- there IS calm at the center and certainty and I sink into that in relief and competence/confidence. The most amazing things come out of my mouth in those situations from someplace deep inside... and I lead the way out. I don't know at all... how... why... I can do this. It's a paradox; a mystery to me... and thankfully, I can simply accept a mystery and appreciate it. Thanks for reminding me of this!

And you're absolutely right, there is almost more trust in "not trusting" someone; I've experienced that as well. It's predictable... non-ambiguous. It makes "sense", can be accounted for... worked around.

So: some of the old FOO issues I've recently been dealing with are due to the fact of unpredictability... the "relationship" which is supposed to imply trust; but in experience doesn't... ambiguity... along with a heavy seasoning of old "pain"; new "pain"; and a new perception of how I react to pain.

That brings me right around to facing the original topic, here... which is un-doing the reflex to heap more abuse on myself -- physically, emotionally, mentally - which was the "coping strategy" (dubious as it is) I reached for way back when... to make the pain "stop"... get my brain engaged in problem-solving... and reduce the anxiety brought on by ambiguity and cognitive dissonance. Nice job, Guest!! Thanks for helping me re-focus.

I'm gonna take a time-out on this for a bit; some of my ideas and thoughts on this topic are starting to "settle out" of mixer-blender rolling around... and I know it'll look different - my perception of it will be different - if I let it settle first, before I start just blabbing and digressing into a lot of other rat-trail digressions along the way.

[sKePTiKal]

Hops wrote:

It's like I've had surgery. I have no desire or plan to ever see my brother again (though hope I may one day see his kids or my SIL). But I'm realizing if I did, he could dance around me, stick his face in my face, exude all the evil toxic crazy vibes he wanted. And I would be able to stand there sipping my punch, and know I am fine. The brother-terror-gland has literally been removed. There's nothing he can squirt at me that would reactivate it.

Congratulations, Hops! And I'm not being sarcastic - I'm sincerely happy for you. Perhaps one day - soon? - I can be in a simliar place. For the moment, that fear is actually useful to me and it helps prod me through the process of thinking of and planning for all the what-ifs for every way that the depth of my bro's denial could drag me down with him.

But, I don't think my self-abuse reflex is caused by fear so much as.... well, something else. Maybe anger that I can't really openly direct at the person I'm angry with? Combined with a PERCEPTION of the futility of being able to protect myself, to have others validate the need and severity of the risk/threat that I see inherent in the situation... and to stand by me; help. Maybe simply a very pure voicelessness - a wanting to cry out and wail about the tragedy that is my FOO. Public grieving?? Maybe.

I do find that I'm starting to be able to speak to people about this, openly - and without shame/blame. (Though some people still overlay a blame reflex onto my comments and meaning; I don't - everyone is free to be as nuts as they wanna be, in my book - just don't force me to swallow that kool-aid and pretend I like it, too.) And there is something empowering in being able to call a spade a spade, without euphemismistic, PC-speak, or dancing around the real perception I have of the situation. Maybe this is a type of public grieving... that wailing above. And I am finding validation - people actually UNDERSTAND what I'm talking about and are cognizant that there are people this screwed up in the world -- and that sometimes, we're physically related to them.

Remember my "smoke-signal" metaphor for my attachment to cigarettes? A silent cry for help? Well.... I'm not silent any longer. But, I wonder if deep-down in the old Self... if somehow I've claimed some blame and responsibility (and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this has something to do with trust & loyalty)... or even stupidity; a mistake I made back when I was a child and couldn't be expected to "know better" or be able to deal sick people when I myself was in dire need of help... and that is the reason I continue to "beat myself up", reflexively... and withdraw into and isolated, self-abusing shell.

[Guest]

Glad if anything I say helps Amber. I'm sure it's by accident.

For me, ambiguity is the source-irritant that begets over-thinking and anxiety. It's truly not a comfortable place to live life from, at all.

Ohhhh yeah!   Tell me about it. But heck, it sure strengthens the patience gland and as you say, you find a place of calm (e-ven-tu-all-y)  and - you get to listen to your own self-talk dribbling away through all the possible assumptions, associated emotions and so on. Prolonged ambiguity is a good place to test yourself and watch your thought processes. It can also drive you close to insanity. Not a good place probably to try and stop smoking!

Ah heck if I sound a bit off-centre it's because I've had a few hours chewing over either the incredibly stupid, or, the incredibly manipulative, machinations of someone who ......finds it impossible to be either straightforward, or, successfully wicked. Ain't it odd. That many who are wicked and manipulative and disordered cannot do it successfully? Ahhhhhhhhhhh that's because.............they have no empathy!!!!!!!

I'm being silly here. I know that of course, have known it for a very long time. I'm coldly angry so it's coming out as sarcasm. What I really want to say is: when these jerks don't affect me any more, when I fail to get justifiably angry, when I can smile and say "Is that so?" to their stupidity, lies and general screwedupidness......is when it doesn't matter to me what the hell they do. But while it does matter, while I am involved, and there are other people I might care about involved, other people who are not disordered, and while one person behaves like an idiot and threatens to screw the whole thing up: I will lead by example, be honest without blaming or shaming and get the right bloody thing done. PEOPLE. Oh..................... that feels so much better!

[sKePTiKal]

OH.... NICE WORD: <B>screwedupidness</B>

and tt: yeah, I've used rage to help me double-dig (by hand) garden beds, too... took my mind off it... absorbed it and let the itsy-bitsy soil microbes digest all the negativity and turn it into compost! At least, it felt like that. Purification...

oh. yeah. purification. I think I just tripped over something... purification by fire. (yeah, I know... in this case, another contradiction or paradox...)

AND -- the fact when I'm feeling my Self squeezed down so small, out of existence... or conversely, led into dealing with thing after thing after thing... and I'm feeling "I don't wanna..." or I wasn't paying attention and let other people manipulate my attention and time... I look for a way to "center" in myself again; safe within boundaries... no piling on allowed.

DUH-HUH... so many times, smokers are pushed to the fringes of activity and interaction - take your stinky addiction over there; don't smoke in front of my kids; oooooh YUCK that's offensive - and the advantage of that is... is time alone to center, most of the time. And then, there are the smoking "friends"....

[sKePTiKal]

AND -- the fact when I'm feeling my Self squeezed down so small, out of existence... or conversely, led into dealing with thing after thing after thing... and I'm feeling "I don't wanna..." or I wasn't paying attention and let other people manipulate my attention and time... I look for a way to "center" in myself again; safe within boundaries... no piling on allowed.

DUH-HUH... so many times, smokers are pushed to the fringes of activity and interaction - take your stinky addiction over there; don't smoke in front of my kids; oooooh YUCK that's offensive - and the advantage of that is... is time alone to center, most of the time. And then, there are the smoking "friends"....

Sometimes, I just need to hear myself...

there is one more thing to add to my list of ways I've emotionally "attached" to smoking... and that is the idea that I "need" something EXTERNAL to myself - that I am not, or do not feel, or have no confidence that I am ... acceptable for human interaction just as I am (smoking friends provide that kind of acceptance, I think). Everything else is just pure "habit"... but I won't underestimate how powerful those kind of habits - the ones we adopt to provide a substitute for "comfort" - are anymore. They are the "path of least resistance" and there is no Return on Investment of any positive value in them, in reality. They are some kind of sentimental "security blanket".

One of my group of advisors made a very interesting comment at the end of our last meeting. I felt myself just absorbing the words; letting it sink in sans judgement or comment at that moment... kind of preserving it to think about later. He said that one's perception of a situation - even how facts relate to each other and create the "situation", as one perceives it - changes over time. Some new input - no matter how small or seemingly unimportant - can sometimes shift one's perception significantly. In the kind of planning and brainstorming sessions we've been having, this is important to remember... because the meaning of the complete, whole "picture" can change after all the "facts" of the composition are assembled and fit into the hierarchy of the "whole". And those facts never become "carved in stone" -- they are always changing.

Even something that initially appears to have negative impact can actually become a positive, once it's found it's relative place in the total composition. If I apply this idea of fluid perception to these habits of what I'm calling, all together, self-abuse... then I can see that in one time-limited set of circumstances... the habits themselves might've been perceived as a good thing; useful for protection and survival. And shift a few things around... different timeframe even... and the perception of the utility and need and importance of course, changes too. The significance and value of something can change from the good side of the continuum to the bad... and vice versa... there isn't anything absolute, certain, unchanging or inherently good or bad, in these "facts" that generate the perception, at any given moment. I think that was the gist of what I was hearing.

And it's kind of amazing how that contradicts the idea of "once the scapegoat always the scapegoat" in a dysfunctional FOO. They can't both be true at the same time, can they? Aren't those ideas mutually exclusive? Sure, the FOO might not acknowledge the continuity of change over time... but then, most of the time they have such a limited perception and understanding of "reality" in the first place, they could hardly be expected to be the "ultimate" authority - the wise monk at the top of the mountain - unless we LET them fill that role in our own perception, right?

I'm not sure I see where this is going. Have just had a bit of downtime to think about this... been pretty busy around here. There is a connection for me, somewhere in this idea of perception and these habits I want to change -- and there is a side-issue of my own perception of myself in that, too. What I feel, within myself, I have confidence and competence in...

[Guest]

one's perception of a situation - even how facts relate to each other and create the "situation", as one perceives it - changes over time. Some new input - no matter how small or seemingly unimportant - can sometimes shift one's perception significantly. In the kind of planning and brainstorming sessions we've been having, this is important to remember... because the meaning of the complete, whole "picture" can change after all the "facts" of the composition are assembled and fit into the hierarchy of the "whole". And those facts never become "carved in stone" -- they are always changing.

I agree with this 90% I reckon. The other 10% are the 'facts' that one needs to recognise to function (you know, like gravity, or, if you don't drink and eat, you will die). There are other 'facts' which are carved in stone. Once someone is dead, they're not going to come back to life. This approach of mine is {probably} the result of having 'facts' denied, so I do put importance on knowing what is and isn't factual (like the facts about what I might be feeling at any given time: those are cotton-wool facts that belong to only me). So I have to discern that there are in fact, facts, that are immutable. Not everything is gray. Trying to work out the contents of another's head is all grey. But the fact that they have a head, is not gray. So yes, 90%. I don't know how we do function (apart from the being alive business) most of the time. I guess the answer is: messily.

The FOO labels are beyond me. A lot of the time I'm on the (emotional) verge of telling people to FOO off. I don't care what they think about me. I care how they behave around me, and with each other (coz it passes the time: I'm sure I could walk away too). As for habits, I'll decide about them. That's just me of course. I know that I'm acceptable for human interaction ..... it's the other buggers that are the problem

One last thought:

They are the "path of least resistance" and there is no Return on Investment of any positive value in them, in reality.

bit like life, then?

[sKePTiKal]

Oh yes, I'm all for the facts of the laws of physics... or finances... or... yes, even "bang head on wall to feel pain and solve nothing"....

but it's the last one in that list that I'm sure is at the bottom of this strangely frustrating puzzle.

I can't agree with you though... that life's ROI is pointless, without value. Even though I subscribe to the idea that I'm nobody special... I still AM and that's of tremendous value to me. Thankfully, I don't have to worry about what history will say about me... because I'm just one ordinary person trying to muddle through - but my personal experience is quite different. Despite all my picking about in the debris of my Family Of Origin (FOO) shatters of sharp glass... looking for clues, trying to understand & piece together (or undo) things left in the "how I am" part of my brain.

[and now for something completely different...]

I am a fan of young people - and how they're addressing, managing, organizing and framing a world view and life perspective for themselves. Just like us children of the 60s integrated "media" into our self-defined personalities (when we were allowed to self-define)... today's young adults are integrating technology -- and new "facts" that become apparent from the integration of that technology into their "selves". Wired magazine, this month has an article on feedback loops.... and I'm going to treat myself to reading it this morning, beginning to end... because from the neuropsychology perspective... that's what I'm dealing with, and talking about -- about these damned habits that I want to pluck out of me -- like the feathers on the ballerina's back in Black Swan.

Back later -- between this article and the "abuse" lists at the website Hops posted - Out of the Fog... new connections/associations are starting to form and generate some ideas... that just might finally nudge me over the block that's keeping me from understanding -- and being ABLE to do something about it.

[Hopalong]

And because I'm a good little Janey One Note, I'll add:

--the amazing addictive power of nicotine (more addictive in the brain, ANY brain, than heroin) is a FACT and has nothing to do with the unique individual or how well they can analyse psychological reasons for it
--hypnosis works
--as does hypnosis + nicotine replacement (which one can deal with later, after one's lungs are pink again)

I chose Route 3. So for me, which is a source of pleasure and amusement and no regret at all, my cravings have simply completely transferred over to the gum (which I order cheap from NZ). Many wouldn't choose a substitute but for me, the goal was ONLY to get off cigarettes and get the smoke out of my breathing organs. The hypnosis session was so powerful and life-giving and GOT my lifeforce back on my own side, and I wanted zero risk I'd return to the white sticks and sucking in the smoke.

It worked
It worked
It worked

(One day, when I'm ready, I'll go through a whole separate process of getting off the gum. And I don't mind that that'sa To Do in the future. Meanwhile, I've got health restored, may years now. And the magic is, cigarettes themselves haven't been a source of craving forever. In fact, they're completely aversive--again, yay, hypnosis).

xo
Hops

[Guest]

Thankfully, I don't have to worry about what history will say about me...

Amber, can you explain what you mean here?

I get what you mean about value being relative (and not absolute).


Hops, nice facts, I like it, and well done.

[Hopalong]

...actually, "no regret at all" is skipping one teeny little one (not), which is that the gum is EXPENSIVE. Even cheap from NZ.

But in my view, as profoundly desperately and TOTALLY addicted I was to smoking cigarettes (multiple quit attempts, a couple that stuck for months, over decades...) -- I finally told myself that gum (or lozenge or whatever) is way way way way way way cheaper than being dead. Or lung cancer. (Had a friend go that way...)

Meanwhile, I'm off to another thread to complain about the cost of housing. (Where is the irony icon?)

Butting out of the brief butt-in on smoking, PR...think of it as a tic (a desire to save). Prolly codependent of me.

xo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

That's OK, Hops!  You're actiing motherly... and saying "when all else fails... if you haven't tried... you oughta think about it". And really, the question about why I haven't is: why NOT? I can't answer that with anything that isn't a complete total line of head up butt rationalization. I am systematically trying to blow all those rationalizations out of the water. The main one is the one I'm looking at and trying to address now:

why my unconscious self is SOOO resistant to the idea, that even this casual level of chat about the topic actually causes me to smoke more. The "reason" isn't anxiety or fear or addiction even; right now, I'm looking at and trying to decide if the reason is self-loathing brought on by shame... or anger. Seems there is still a stagnant pool of anger hanging around and when I can't take it out on the sick person(s)... for fear of retribution and I can't just go off in a nuclear meltdown (collateral damage to innocent bystanders)... the anger energy turns on me, as it's target: and that's a negative feedback loop... one that I suspect was encouraged by the usual perpetrators. Cigarettes are already aversive, to me... yet the urgency to smoke even more... overcomes... what? Can I strengthen - support - validate... and create a positive feedback loop that WORKS... to reassure that unconscious self that I really AM OK... and I don't NEED to smoke, to feel that way? Remember, my mom was the original "any means to the end she wants"... and said about my smoking... "it could be worse". I think that hurt the recently traumatized unconscious self, more than I've acknowledged, before.... and then, she got really ANGRY.

The good news is that this is churning up more muck from the bottom of the usual murky pool. Had a dream about my Dad, expressing to me a limit... and am still pondering over it. I am aware how once my bioNic Mom got what she believed was absolute control over me... the "rules" went in the opposite direction... toward neglect and parentification and no clear appropriately age-related limits. Both of those situations revolved around my taboo "anger"... about the real "facts" of what happened to me and her denial of it... how she demonized my dad and forced me choose her over him - how he had to "walk away" and really couldn't rescue me... etc.

This is the part of the healing work, my T wanted me to do on my own. And that makes sense to me, because way back when -- there was a solid decision that Twigs/Amber made together... and smoking is only the outward expression of that. I am still trying to pinpoint what that decision was - I don't know... can't quite piece that together, even with all the details and puzzle pieces I've accumulated over time. It's time for me to write things down on post-its -- and start assembling a flow chart on a wall, I think.

Ah...Guest! Once upon a time, my dream was to make it big as an artist. To express in images all the babbling and ideas that you can search on this board; the ideas I've learned to actually TALK about... but the images were foul and difficult to create -- painful for me (I was excruciatingly literal)... and I think it might've been the strongest commitment I ever made to myself -- to stop painting until I could brighten up my palette and paint the OTHER side of life. There was a childish part of me that believed if I was a "famous" artist, it would be a satisfying revenge... and permanently protect me from the shame of being part of that family of dysfunctional, self-destructive, morons. I could disown them; I would be independent of them; wouldn't "need" them for anything (oooo - except for the business connection -- I don't need them now).

Life had other plans for me... and other opportunities ran across my screen... but that now makes me anonymous; a nobody special... and I can "hide in plain sight". Again, with the shame component, huh? I'll look around and see if I still have a picture of the self-portrait that caused the director of the art dept to say that while the technique was excellent in places - if that image was what I saw of myself, I needed professional help!         Boy, was he ever right.

[Hopalong]

Well, look how long my butt-out lasted! 

I really AM OK... and I don't NEED to smoke, to feel that way?

You ARE okay.

You NEED to smoke because your brain is physically addicted to it.

This is why you need OUTSIDE help and additional inventive and different tools/weapons to break the addiction, to break through it like that ocean floor crust, to your deepest, un-verbalizable, un-analysable, life force.

I finally realized I was literally fighting against my own life force. Smoking was my weapon against it.
I eventually REALLY accepted that I wanted to lose.
I wanted it...that self deeper than any imagined inner child....way way deeper and more kind and more vast than my own clever rationalizing mind...to win.

I stepped aside. Got out of its way. With the help of the trained certified experienced clinical hypnotherapist.

(I so understand the anger and the triggering and stimulating-more-smoking of this whole topic. I completely get it. I felt the exact same, so I do need to muzzle myself after this...)

I don't have last word-itis, but close, on this one.
SOOOOO wanna save people from this unecessary suffering.

(Nothing more obnoxious than a "recovered" smoker but it's not a "moral" or "superior" desire...just eagerness to let a friend know. This IS doable and all the weapons you've used so far...ain't done it, so please, when you want to, remember it IS possible somebody ELSE could be telling you about a new tool for you?)

xxoo, now testing myself...can I shut up on this subject?

[To self: I done told her. This is approaching nagging. Shaddup.]



xo, a way-overstimulated by my own adrenalin just now

Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I hear ya, Hops! LOL... loud & clear! It's OK to ask for HELP. Got it!! (hee-hee!) REALLY - I don't mind.

This is my LAST ATTEMPT to sort out what you so accurately describe as a self deeper than the inner child even, that is fighting against my own strength of will to survive... with emotional/intellectual tools. I am aware of this self... at times, it's even personified into some sort of mideaval imp... and appears within my consciousness. Monkey mind run amok, perhaps... without boundaries, limits, or inner controls.

This phenomenon is absolutely real to me, Hops. Lets call it the death-wish zombie... the antithesis of everything ELSE that I am. Like an evil twin... or a self in a parallel universe, that can "cross over" into this one.

I have persuaded myself that I'm really, really close to solving the equation - finding X - the missing piece, the last puzzle piece - that will let me finally hack into and re-program that death-wish zombie out of existence. And all my research, self-checking, and feedback from the local universe at hand is telling me that pain is the key. People do successfully reprogram things like this. And I WANT to... no, it's more true to say I NEED to... figure out how to do this myself. It has something to do with control and boundaries within myself. It has to do with a mistake I made; back when I WAS Twigs.

Perhaps forgiveness is in that equation, too -- hypothetically it reads like this:

My mom co-opted me into her war with my Dad; convinced me that he was the "problem" and that everything would be fine if he were simply no longer in our lives. (parental alienation) This set up a huge conflict for me, because I knew that while he could've made other choices... he felt beset, beseiged, surrounded, overwhelmed and engulfed by my mom's constant targeting of him and projection onto him. My dad was a "normal" human - with normal human foibles, including a fair dose of ego, drive, determination and desire and able to enjoy his successes. He was also generous, fair, forgiving and quick to laugh and have fun. All "bad" things according to my mom. That's the first level of cognitive dissonance, for me... the first issue over love and loyalty and self-respect.

To be a "good girl" according to my mom - I must never express any of the those "normal" things that were like my dad. I must 24/7 and even in my sleep... be exactly like her. (invalidation of self; intrusiveness; etc sick stuff) Any deviation results in awful hurtful criticism, humiliation, and punishment. PAIN.

Follow that up with isolating me and the other sordid gory details of what happened... all the way to experiencing being SHUNNED and shamed and humiliated by my mom & her massive denial of even my ability to ascertain what was real and delusion/imagination (gaslighting).... and the moment that I voluntarily gave up Twigs -- and all her agony -- and stuffed her away in the box of unconsciousness. The absolute, life-extinguishing PAIN of what I could only call the "black hole", back then. Shame and pain and anger is a molotov cocktail of nuclear proportions...

... and if it's dangerous to lob it at the person who made you angry... or if it seems to be "kicking the sick person while they're down" and beyond the pale of empathy, sympathy, and..... forgiveness.... if it's a battle where only one survives... and if it goes against one's owns inner nature and principles...

well, who else is going to carry the load of the responsibility and accountability, except oneself? Especially when the futility of being to off-load any of that onto the person who perpetrated it is sinking in... when it's impossible to get through their denial... when even WHO YOU ARE isn't accepted as REAL... well, death is preferable to continuing to experience this. This is what I went through, that enabled me to connect strongly to the experience of holocaust survivors. And I was fortunate enough to find people like that -- who were able to understand, validate my experience, and comfort me... all in secret, of course... because I'd be punished for "telling stories" again. I was forced to lie about seeking such comfort. SIGH.

Good was bad; delusion was real; the sky wasn't blue anymore and the sun never rose in the morning. I was living in a universe where the realness of everything I'd known up to that point... was wrong. And because I knew it was wrong and insisted on pointing that out... I was "bad" in this universe. Because I needed a mother - emotionally - so desperately AND SHE WAS THE ENEMY, and I stubbornly refused to accept this THEN... this confusion of referred pain began to push out physical symptoms... and so I reached for a physical substance to try to work those pathways in reverse; smoking sent my brain into overdrive and hyperactivity and yes -- the dopamine effect; an insatiable satisfaction via the substance.

---------------------------------------------------------

So, these last what - six, seven years - of therapy, working and researching alone... listening to Twigs daily and validating her emotions... the millions of words HERE... there was still this one last connective dysfunctional issue to sort out: picking apart the story to find out WHY I smoked, so I could reprogram it. So, the question before Twigs and me is:

why on earth would I want to keep any reminders of that dark, evil, alternate universe in my life? The "opposite" land of my mom? When I've worked so hard to separate from that, and maintain my boundaries even through the recent "unpleasantness" of my close encounter with the way denial works... and in the process of that work, I've re-discovered all the joys of my life... the things that are good, positive, constructive... and I've looked around and realized hey... I AM OK, the way I am...

and what I'm coming to understand, is that it's Twigs that needs convincing and support through the process. She needs to let go of the horribleness of what she lived through; survived; and she needs the validation - still - that it was a bad thing... and also reminded that good things still exist... and that no one; nothing... is all good or all bad... like her mom believes. It's way SIMPLER than way back when, when Twigs was immersed in the nuthouse world of her mom's weirdness...

and she doesn't have to hide from fear that bad things will befall her unexpectedly... in spite of caution...
and she doesn't HAVE to forgive her mom, excuse her, forget it ever happened... as long as... she understands that she doesn't live with that crap anymore; she's back in the real world... where things that really are good for you - feel, smell, and taste good... and don't betray or abandon you... the rules and facts of gravity work the way they're supposed to...
and she doesn't have to obsess anymore on "figuring out" the problem anymore... as long as... she maintains her boundaries and doesn't get sucked back into the madness via feeling sorry for people who created their own catastrophe and are responsible for fixing it, themselves... and are in complete denial of that responsibility...

so she doesn't need to have anything to send her brain into overdrive.... to think things out... figure out how to interpret meanings in an upside down, inside out world... her brain works just FINE... and I'm going to let HER pick the method of putting down cigarettes... and letting it go.

And we can forgive each other the compromises we made to survive back then - she could've run away, for sure. But to where or what? It really might've been worse than what she did have to do, to survive. She could've not smoked... not given up and accepted her mom's delusional upside down universe... could've tried harder to not get lost in the duality of that... been able to stand up against the pain and confusion and gaslighting... but she wasn't. AND THAT'S OK.

Definitions. These are important. In a feedback loop one needs accurate data to compare... how fast I'm really driving right now and the speed limit. Then, even before we have the thought, we've reacted and let up on the accelerator to match our actual speed to the limit. Twiggy's special universe is this pre-attentive place; she's the sensei there. Not me; too many words; takes too long. When those two pieces of information aren't available or are distorted or denied... then there is no "meaning" or significance or motivation to even pay attention to the speedometer. And the interesting thing is... is that negative input into a feeback loop... doesn't motivate the desired behavior; it gets "stuffed" in the background and blocked out.... and in my case, I think even provokes an oppositional response. And the example I read about - specifically used the new graphic images being added to the surgeon general's warning on cigarettes... to illustrate how people will continue to simply ignore the data.

Twigs will love to design a plan to quit based on what she's learning about her REAL pain & her comfort/pain feedback system, the effects of smoking (physically and on the brain; during the experience), and what she's brainstorming on feedback loops.... it's right up her alley and she can customize it any way she wants. Let's call it her graduation, independence day, and get out of jail free.... present.

[Guest]

I think...to make a big change...requires a big change. External, like Hops indicates.

[sKePTiKal]

There's the rub.

External change/control sets up the HUGE resistance response, every single time. BUT: in getting me to think through how/why that is... I think you win the jackpot sweepstake prize, Guest. I had to go back and doublecheck my feedback loop process, as it relates to the "why" of smoking.

The constant message I heard from my mom was:

that how I thought/felt was "wrong" and it had to be changed to suit my mom
I was never allowed to just be, breathing, in her vicinity - my value was only in what I "did" - OR
simply not being there at all...

the subtext of our whole relationship - then and now - was to take care of mom's needs, not have any of my own (because that took away from hers)...

and there I was/am... with an oil tanker full of needs... and not even being allowed to know what they were (because why bother, if mom said that I felt X, when I felt Y or if they weren't going to get met?)...

... and getting the repeated message of "Go away kid; you bother me". No matter WHAT I was doing... (sometimes, even trying to meet her needs...)

There are 4 parts to a feedback loop - the evidence or data of actual behavior; the relevance or meaning or standard; a consequence for dviation; and action.

When the only way I could be acceptable to my mom was to "go away"... I took it to heart; took it seriously and literally... and since it gave me an outlet or expression for my anger & pain simultaneously... even that childish-teenaged "I'll show you; look what you make me do!!" kind of revenge... I dedicated myself to it.

She tried making me eat the cigarettes I had, even butts, one time. I was like, so what?? I'll throw up; feel like crap and go get more. And yet, her reaction to my smoking was... well, it could be worse. No matter what I did... she simply couldn't understand the MEANING - the relevance of how desperately I was trying to please her - fix her - make her happy... by "going away permanently". Because I suppose...

there just wasn't any room in her delusional reality for me, already - I already didn't exist as a person with feelings... just a robot-object to fulfill her needs; take care of her.

So, there was no relevance or meaning to violation of the standard... no action had positive consequences... and the feedback loop constantly reinforced the bad action in the first place... because at least it gave me a way to express anger, and the extreme pain I felt.

Undoing that feedback loop... and changing the outcomes... requires new definitions for all 4 steps of the process. A new loop, in other words... and completely putting the old one "off limiits" under all circumstances... talking myself OUT of all the rationalizations, and weird logic of why that loop made sense in the past -- in those wacked circumstances.

That's internal working it's way out... to external behavior. Any other approach just triggers "it doesn't matter; I don't matter - screw it" resistant response. Without that meaning-consequence being rational... and EMOTIONAL... the evidence doesn't matter and the action stage falls apart.

OK... I think I finally "got it". Sorry to all that it took so bloody long.