Perfection

[les]

I have read here and elsewhere that N's underneath their carefully arranged exteriors suffer from low self- esteem. (did I get that right, it still seems hard to grasp) I can appreciate that many N's or perhaps all N's will never know all the things they might have been because they are so busy keeping up appearances, but I wonder if there aren't some who through and through just think they are the cat's meow, right down to the last whisker. Any thoughts on the depths of their feelings of perfection?  

Les

[les]

can't resist...purrrfection.
Les

[bunny]

Some Ns have a degree of awareness that something is wrong. Other Ns have no awareness and never will. It depends on how their defense systems work and how deep is their denial of reality.

bunny

[OnlyMe]

My NM thinks she is Perfection personified.  She must be perfect, everything and everyone around her must be perfect.  To not be perfect is to have no value.  She only has friends who are 'the best', or 'the most important professionally', or have some sort of status (as seen thru her eyes), or have something she needs.  She prefixes every comment with a description of a person's prestige, like a broken record.  She thinks that association with 'important people' will somehow make her seem important as well.  And her perception of herself is Perfect, even though, clearly to those of us around her, she is not.  She not only believes she is perfect, but expects to be treated as such, as well.
She loves to tell me that she could have done something important with her life, if she had not had to look after me and my Dad.
I could write pages on Perfection as she lives it, and the horrendous pressure it has caused in the home.  However, it is all for appearances, to impress anyone outside the home.  Her bedroom looks like a hurricane hit it, and her closets are jammed to overflowing, papers everywhere...but that bedroom door is kept closed, so it is her little secret.  (I think that is an important observation - it might be reflective of the real chaos in her mind!)
BTW, my parents always had separate bedrooms - NDad snored, was not perfect!
I was my own person, not her clone, therefore also not perfect.
I see her perfectionism as a series of props to hold up her false, phony, fake sense of who she Thinks she is.

Gee, starting to rant!  Great thread!!!!!

[phoenix]

Seeker you are so funny! This is so familiar a script for me. But from where?

A boyfriend up in Washington, quite successful in Real Estate, that took a liking to me and thought he would so graciously provide me with everything he thought I would want to move up in the world.

Of course it was me trailing toilet paper out of the bathroom attached to my heel, or spilling something red down a cream dress.  I remember twice! Twice! Someone leaning across the table at some fancy function we attended,uttering compulsivley to us, to me, just how innocent I looked! ( I, 37, He 45. Me, not really innocent at all. Me just not fitting in. ) He used to complain that I carried all my emotion in my face. That I didn't hold my face right. Yeah, how about that, it held a personalty.  

This is a man who when dressed down, wore pressed and dry cleaned jeans. Jeans are my basic wardrobe.

I remember him leaning over the sink, his gut hanging out, primping. He'd turn sideways, suck it in, admire himself. His face was a permanent mask of  disdain- despite the face lift. He would laugh at anyone overwieght, yet  he was disgusting in his nakedness. The posturing on his part was repulsive.

I couldn't figure out what he wanted from me for the longest time. I know now. My simplicity, my innocence. I truly feel sorry for this man. He was surely one who - as Les put it - lived with 'carefully arranged exteriors'.
Phoenix

[Anonymous]

Hi Phoenix!

Hugs and thanks for your message...it helped perk me up.  My H says my reaction to this event is reason alone not to go back.  He doesn't want to have to carry me out on a stretcher, because there's only one of him.    I mean, I really feel like I was exposed to radiation or something.  You could cut the hypocrisy with a knife.

What is truly amazing is how quickly, nanoseconds really, some Ns can size up if they need to know you or not.  I break "rules" all the time because my dad didn't take the time or interest to teach his kids the rules (sort of a backhanded blessing) but still threw us into the soup (so NOT a blessing).  Like, here, figure it out and make me look good even though I don't know what the h-ll I'm doing either but can't admit it.

One rule broken was talking to people I hadn't been introduced to by mutual acquaintance.  Another rule broken was talking, smiling, and looking interested.  Really, are these people happy?  Really?  Another giveaway was I expected this event to be hospitable.  It was so unwelcoming (not just to me but in its organization, or should I say disorganization).  The message I came away with was "we know everyone wants to be here, but we can't be bothered to acknowledge you until you are officially accepted into our membership."  It always shocks me when I get hit in the face with an unspoken agenda.  And I'm always amazed that other people "get" it right away.  It makes me feel stupid.

It's confusing because I don't want to be like them but it still makes me angry when I feel rejected by these snobs.  I hate snobbery but still have to deal with it.  I also wondered about how many ACONs might have been at this event as well.  Like, I really would enjoy talking to you but I would be disinherited if my mom saw me.  Honestly, I thought I was doing all right but afterwards I felt like Ace Ventura at that fancy reception "Whooo!  Do NOT go in there!"  

Your exBF in drycleaned jeans reminds me of a father at our old school who had a logo on every piece of clothing he wore.  That was my first clue of his PD.  Number two was the select-a-vision.  Of course, he couldn't see me.  Clue number three is slicked back hair, a real Italian stallion, always showing off his profile.  If a person succeeded in convincing him they were worthy of walking this earth, his earth really, then he was verrry nice and gentle, soft spoken, etc.  I found out a couple of years later that he cheats on his wife constantly.  Jerk.

But I'm one of those people who doesn't want to "dress the part" or give anything away. America is supposed to be a "classless" society.  What a joke. I wear non-remarkable clothes also because I think I adapted to my invisibility at home.  If I wore better clothes, my brother would tease me endlessly and embarrass me no end.  If I didn't, my mother gave me the silent treatment.  I couldn't win.  So I disappeared in a sense.  To be honest, I like to demonstrate to people how shallow they are when they realize that I'm not really the low-life they think I am just because I smile and wear jeans.    It's my little way of rebelling.

I get the veiled putdown of the "innocent" remark of your XBF's friend.  Jeez, you didn't hold your face right?!  Then why didn't he notice before?  If I told my brother about this he would get on my case about not sucking up appropriately (see above for Ndad script).  

 One thing I worry about is that some sharks look for innocents they can prey on, like my daughters.  They are kind, honest and helpful.  In today's world that is equivalent to saying I gave birth to space aliens.

Sorry everybody.  Wow, I'm bitter today!  Hopefully I can get back into my Peace Bubble soon.  Hugs, Seeker

[kellyginger2]

My Ex N boyfriend had a interesting way of showing how "inflated he was" he grew up poor as can be but he had this weird fascinastion with labels. Like ketchup had to be Hunt's or maynaise had to be "Best foods" the list goes on and on. He had to wear designer clothes even though he couldn't afford them ( he never did have much of the way of a job). He liked Nike, Adidas, Tommy Hilfiker, etc. He told me more then a dozen times when he would be in his "depressed mood" and "control freak stage" that he was a God and that people had to respect him because if he had the right job, friends, girl friend, parents, car, house, clothes etc. people would bow to him because he knew EVERYTHING!! He thought he could fix anything from cars, people, relationships, etc you name it he knew how to fix it but if it came to his car, people, relationships etc is was NEVER his fault it was always theirs?? He was almost comical when I look back at how he would charm his way into people's life's. He would be a great case study!! I know God had me go through that experience for a reason I just haven't figured it all out and why?! Someday I will know! Thanks for the topic! Good to vent Have a great day! Kelly

[bunny]

My H says my reaction to this event is reason alone not to go back.  He doesn't want to have to carry me out on a stretcher, because there's only one of him.    I mean, I really feel like I was exposed to radiation or something.  You could cut the hypocrisy with a knife.

{{ Seeker }}
Sometimes we know within two seconds that we're incompatible with a social scene and we're horrified to be there. Then we're trapped and hope to make the best of it. But we're being tormented by rejection and people who seem completely comfortable being snobs. If unprepared, a person can feel really awful and ashamed. If prepared, a person can reframe it and think, "I'll just consume as much free food and drink as I can," and perhaps find another lost soul to commune with. And leave as soon as humanly possible.

bunny

P.S. It doesn't matter what the organization is, the upper echelons are always into PR, fundraising, and things that are snobby.

[Discounted Girl]

Maybe I have a dark humor, but I am cracking up reading this thread. I can relate -- been there more than once. I am not into schmoozing (unless the job required it, and then I had to immediately take a shower), but because I have felt the "pre-rejection" snubs from overplucked eyebrows, I have been able to stand back and observe. Did you ever notice how a room full of N's (I used to just call them super-egos) will instantly size each other up, sometimes feeling threatened by another N, then squirreling around, jousting for position on the N ladder for Mr. Big N's favor.  

what a bunch of clowns. -- pompous, arrogant jerks, hypocrites through and through. Too chilly in there for me. Give me a sincere smile and a coke or beer and tell me a story about your adventures -- I don't care how much money you have or where you came from. Just be real and honest and take advantage of NO ONE.  

Seeker, pardon me for my smiling here. I can just see you in there all pretty, sweet and kind in a room full of pinch-faced, needle butts. You're there to serve a worthy cause, with a white heart and you get snubbed by those with an inappropriate sense of entitlement. I hope none of them asked you to get them a drink or a horses doover. I remember a party during which I had a wardrobe malfunction -- well, I wanted to melt into the floor. Now, when I look back at it I find it quite funny. I am sure I have fewer lines around my mouth than those prune faces in that room. Yes, it is a game -- I have heard that many times -- "you got to play the game to get what you want." I remember having to play tennis with the biggest snob, bore at the weekend function -- my face hurt from fake smiles. It was the longest 2 days of my life. No, thanks -- after being tormented by Nparents, sucking up to strangers is just too dang much work.

Phoenix, you are probably right -- Mr. Potgut real estate tycoon found your simplicity, independence, easy manner and sweet honesty refreshing. He could turn away from the mirror and relax with you.

Funny, I have always been able to laugh at snobs, but not at my Nparents. I guess it's too personal there.

[Anonymous]

Seeker,

Some people are born with a status seeking personality...some of the SJ types like estj and esfj. They usually are affiliated with service organizations and institutions that actually do help. I'm wondering if you have a personality type such as NF or NT. I do and I know that the SJ functions aren't my cup of tea. Well, in fact I don't like social stuff anyway so in my later years (well I ain't that old) I just don't bother.

I am not the schmoozer type and usually find a quiet corner and some food and maybe one person to talk with. It's not so bad if you know going in (like Bunny said) what you're up against. I am so not concrete and the stuff these people talk about has zero interest, I can usually feign some interest and maybe press a few buttons (as in ask them questions since people like to talk about themselves), but otherwise I'm at a loss and usually pretty bored.

Don't take it personally. These people do know how to play the game and I am always glad I don't know how. But there are good people in that category and I'm glad they do the work they do. Fundraising and the like requires that type and I'd be no good there. But the downside of the equation is the status seekers. They probably aren't really mostly Ns though.

[Anonymous]

Hey everybody!

THANK YOU!  It is really wonderful to be supported here.  Phew!

Guest, you are right.  I think I'm an NF.  My daughter is currently reading a book where one of the pulled out quotes is "some people are outsiders no matter where they go".  And I have always felt that way.  This event was a big bucket of cold water reminding me of that.  I think my daughter is an NT or NF also and I see her suffer from the callousness of Ns at her school like I did when I was her age.  I don't think I'm projecting my own stuff too much here.  

My H is an SJ I think.  He does enjoy status but still has a soul.  He's also very serviced oriented and I would like to think that is the type of person you all are describing when there are nonNs helping out in a big way.  He's a joiner for sure.  I always joke about our "mixed marriage".  But he's very protective & loyal and that is something I cherish, since I didn't have that growing up.

DG, plucked eyebrows!   Now that's funny.  I wish I could laugh at them in the moment but I can't.  I just get so disgusted.  I can, however, enjoy being a fly on the wall and observing two Ns lock horns and then complain about each other later.  (My Ndad can't stand the Academy Awards!   )  Maybe we could have a beer together some day and tell those botoxic people to get REAL!

And hi Bunny: it was shocking because we knew many nice people who were also going.  We bumped into one friend and we both went into ACON mode "Hiyeeeee."   H and I shot out of there like an organ rejection within an hour.  It was a two+ hour event.  Maybe it's because I'm finally more aware of what's really going down.

Finally hello Only Me, KellyGinger and Les.  Les, sorry I hijacked your thread.  I guess it was an Nmergency!    Big wraparound hugs to all of you!  I needed that!  XO, Seeker

[les]

Rant away Only Me and Seeker.  It's good for you - I'm beginning to learn.

No problem about the thread Seeker. I don't think any threads stay rigidly on topic for too long. Definitely an N emergency. Your N event reminds me of a movie I saw where all the people at the party would gaze over the shoulder of the person they were "talking" to, scanning for better prospects. You are a very funny woman even in the midst of your distress - out of there like a rejected organ!

Only Me - these mothers, honestly.  My mother has Her Story, in which at the age of 2 she was crowned "Little Miss Perfection." 100% perfect baby.  It's fresh in my mind because she told the SW the story last Friday. After telling HER story she said, "Well, I know I'm not perfect  (she said oh so  modestly) but perhaps I could say I have trouble with "imperfection." (cue batting of eyelashes -where do they get that!)  Oh god, lock me away!

Bunny -I'm still processing what you said.  So the extent to which they view themselves as perfect has to do with the extent of their denial of reality? Having lived with "Little Miss Perfection" all my life there is something about this I just can't grasp.  My mother's story includes breathtaking drama in which the doctors deliberate and compare notes  finally having to say that of the last 2 contestants - the boy is 98% but try as they might they are forced to declare the girl 100% -I think maybe I bought the story too having heard it all my life and experienced it everyday!  Hmm just wondered how the 98% baby did in life. Thanks all.

Les

[Anonymous]

Kelly here:  Guys I always find these threads when the "regulars" have made comments.  I have this sense of "deja vu" all the time - like I am reading about myself and experiences!!  It's kind of spooky!!

Here's one.  My daughter goes to a private school and my nmom pays her tuition.  She is also a contributor to the school (who has many fund raisers, banquets, etc.)

Anyway, one of the perfect people is a mother of a girl my daughter's age.  They both have gone to the school since kindergarten and are now seniors!!  (13 years........)  Well, I invited the daughter of "Mrs. Perfect" to several birthday parties in the early years and sometimes I got a polite, NO, and sometimes I just got nothing - silence.

Well, funny how when "Mrs. Perfect" realized my parents had money - my status changed.  Now this girl and my daughter are best friends.  Only thing is, "Mrs. Perfect" calls me occasionally to tell me what I am doing wrong in raising my kids.  I was a single parent and had three girls and the logistics were crazy!!!

Well, low and behold, "Mrs. Perfect" drove her husband away (since she forbade him to invite friends over to watch the game and have a few beers..........geez, let's lose a marriage over that one!!) and suddenly she was a little more sympathetic to me for not being everywhere and everything to everyone!!

Anyway, so they have a ground breaking ceremony at the new school that they are building and they gave my mom a golden shovel (along with other large contributors...............) so my nmom waves me up to the front and introduces me to a couple I had already met and the woman obviously had had major plastic surgery and I was SOOOO close to saying "Yes, I've met you before, but Sue, you look so much different!  Did you do something to your hair?????"  But instead I just said, "Yes we've met before.......................hello, how are you doing?"

BUT I THOUGHT IT.  AND I THINK ALL THOSE PEOPLE ARE SUCH POSERS AND I REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT ALL THAT.  I would rather be myself and say some nonsequiter and see what someone says!!

Oh, and what are all these SF and NTs?  Don't know all that lingo.

Thanks for this thread - I have lived with a perfect mom for many years.  I think she started out with a low self esteem and then was hell bent to make something of herself, and has................and now she is perfect and expects everyone else to be HER perfection.

[Anonymous]

Seeker,

I'm a bit confused here by the way you use the term N. Are you saying that these persons are afflicted with NPD? Or are you saying that these persons are self absorbed? Or is it something else that you are referring to?

If you or your daughter are an NF or NT personality type, the other kids at school and adults now are not necessarily being callous or N. But they have a very different way of being in the world and of course they may be very unappealing to you. That is very different than being N. I understand this because I was always an outsider and didn't fit in. And when you're different, people (kids especially) can seem very cruel. It might help your daughter to get the book by David Keirsey "Please Understand Me". It is a very good book and is even on the curriculum in some colleges that have communications courses.

I will admit to being a bit uncomfortable with calling people Ns when that label might not be accurate. It just doesn't do the discussion of serious N problems any good imo when it's applied too broadly. I'm not trying to get on your case so I will apologize in advance if it seems that way. But I would just like a clarification when you get time. And thanks.

[bunny]

Wow, this was fascinating. Thanks for sharing it.

My mother has Her Story, in which at the age of 2 she was crowned "Little Miss Perfection." 100% perfect baby.  It's fresh in my mind because she told the SW the story last Friday. After telling HER story she said, "Well, I know I'm not perfect  (she said oh so  modestly) but perhaps I could say I have trouble with "imperfection." (cue batting of eyelashes -where do they get that!)  Oh god, lock me away!

This legend about a beauty contest at age two is the key to your mom. Her emotional development pretty much ended with the beauty contest. She was unconsciously trying to tell the social worker that she is a toddler, and hopes the SW will attune to her correctly. Two-year-olds are very grandiose and demand admiration for any little thing they do. Unfortunately she's still frozen there. It's pretty bad for those who've had to deal with her.

So the extent to which they view themselves as perfect has to do with the extent of their denial of reality?

An N's cognitive distortions can be really severe, where they believe themselves to be superior and entitled to any behavior they want, with no repercussions or consequences whatsoever. Those who are grounded in reality know this isn't how life works. Some Ns have major cognitive distortions and accompanying fantasies of grandiosity, and others have milder distortions. The milder ones are aware that something is wrong with them. Even your mother is aware that not everyone buys how perfect she is. However that brief glimpse of awareness is only to keep her supply from abandoning her. Then it vanishes and she reverts back to cognitive distortion/fantasies.

My mother's story includes breathtaking drama in which the doctors deliberate and compare notes  finally having to say that of the last 2 contestants - the boy is 98% but try as they might they are forced to declare the girl 100% -I think maybe I bought the story too having heard it all my life and experienced it everyday!  Hmm just wondered how the 98% baby did in life. Thanks all.

This is very telling about how one can quickly lose the "contest" (adults' approval and caregiving) by being only 98% perfect. I'm sure she identifies with the runner-up and is terrified that others will agree she is only 98% and abandon her.


bunny