Troy Davis

[river]

I hope for a reprieve.  And I find it still unbelievable. 
I have the washing up to do, and another day tomorrow.  I feel a grim awareness that someone somewhere is ~~~~ I cant even imagine about what is happening for him.   

For anyone who hasnt heard of this case, a black man, Troy Davis, is due to be executed tonight, convicted on evidence which 5 out of 7 have retracted since.   

I do know this is not the subject of this board.  But having seen what N.ism can do, and the compliance of others, somehow sensitises one to what happens in the world also. 

All I can do is pray, if ayone else here would to so too, I'd appreciate it.  I think its due in less than an hour unless there's a reprieve. 

river. 

[Guest]

Hi River

not yet: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/22/troy-davis-execution-delayed

His sister said: "We shouldn't have to live in a state that executes people when there's doubt."

I agree with that, with the last three words deleted. Murder of wrongdoers might be appropriate to me when there isn't enough food to go around. Then it might make logical sense. All other arguments are rubbish.

[Hopalong]

I have shared in this vigil, and hang my head. My heart hurts.

I am one who does not believe in the death penalty, morally.

Thou Shalt Not Kill So if You Kill, So to Prove It's Wrong to Kill, We Will Kill You

The complete splitting of this, is a great part of what's wrong with America.

One letter writer spoke of when it became simple and clear for him--his 7 year old came home
from school one day struggling not to burst into tears. Friends had told him that the U.S.
was going to strap someone to a chair and run electricity through him until he died, and that it
was real. He choked, I can believe that a bad guy would do that, but I don't believe the USA
would do that. Not the good guys!

Hops

[river]

Hops, thanks for sharing the vigil, the concern, the feelings.   

I heard his final statement, it seems he was heroic too, and spiritual.   I just got home and read the news online.   

From the link you sent freshwater, theres a lot in that.....

DuBose gave an account of a 30-minute conversation he had with Davis on death row on Tuesday night. "Troy wanted me to let you know – keep the faith. The fight is bigger than him." 

   

I feel sick.   I wonder how it will go on.  I know I have to focus back on my life, but I need to absorb this somehow.   

r. 

[lighter]

::hanging head::

I can't believe they didn't stop that execution.

[Hopalong]

http://www.amnesty.org/en/death-penalty/myths-facts/myths

[river]

It is hard to believe.  I think its what I cant get my head around. 

There was a bit on the report too where the Macphail family said "... he's had long enough to prove his innocence".   It kind of depicts an unquestioning adherance to authority, as well, they just wanted retribution, and they werent too fussy about who. 

Theres this phrase a 'virtual other', meaning the person is seeing who's in their mind rather than the person in front of them in reality.   (I think its Daniel Seigal who said it)

[mudpuppy]

Here are some facts about the delightful Troy Davis and his case that you seldom hear;

http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/09/21/there-is-no-travesty-of-justice-in-georgia-executive-troy-davis/

Think I'll save my sympathy for someone a little more deserving, like the family of the guy he murdered and the murder victim himself.

I have shared in this vigil, and hang my head. My heart hurts.

I am one who does not believe in the death penalty, morally.

If the issue is the death penalty itself then we should have threads dedicated to Lawrence Brewer, the unspeakable white supremacist who mercilessly dragged James Byrd to his death in TX.  I don't see one.

It's tragic that these men chose the paths they did and created so much havoc and destruction for innocent bystanders with their wasted lives, but I'll save my tears for their victims and hope God has mercy on their immortal souls.

mud

[Guest]

Hi Mud, I like seeing your name on the board.

That is all.

[river]

   Here are some facts about the delightful Troy Davis and his case that you seldom hear;

http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/09/21/there-is-no-travesty-of-justice-in-georgia-executive-troy-davis/

Think I'll save my sympathy for someone a little more deserving, like the family of the guy he murdered and the murder victim himself.

   

Except that you assume what was written there is accurate.  And what you dont do is imagine what it would be like if you had been executed for a shooting you didnt commit, or a child of yours perhaps.   
as you know, many have been executed and found innocent later. 
Where does that sit with your values?

 

[river]

river,

I wonder if there was a person with political influence that powered the ultimate verdict?   T'would be interesting to do a trace on that aspect.

Having P. I. written on military records used to carry great power. 

tt

It would be intersting to know exaclty how it all happened.   But I get the impression there was a lot to do with they wanted revenge, and he was the one. 

[Hopalong]

I miss you too, Mud.

And I totally agree with you. I am ashamed that I felt more connected to the Troy Davis execution than to the routine, frequent, no-big-deal-they-deserved-it executions that go on in this country all the time. I recognize that I felt that way because the Davis case was lifted into my awareness by the media.

Now that I admit that, I should have clarified--I am no less heartsick about the death penalty when it is applied to what any person would describe as a "human monster". But I'm ashamed my activism is triggered by one case at times, rather than all of them. I've done a bit here and there, written a lot, signed petitions, etc.

I am sickened not just by the Davis execution, but by ALL state-sanctioned murder. That is what I believe capital punishment is.

The man who dragged Mr. Byrd to his death? No doubt about his guilt, none at all. But I would not kill him, or have the state kill him in my name. I know he's repellent. Still, I do not believe I or we (the state) have this right. Legally, we do...but morally, it's wrong.

Capital punishment itself is morally wrong, imo.

I don't even know with certainty whether Troy Davis is guilty or innocent. I believe wholeheartedly that people can rewrite narratives in their own minds to justify almost anything. Still, sounds like there was enough doubt to deserve pause. But even if he was guilty, I don't want him killed.

I can be kind of draconian about life imprisonment. I don't really mind if there's no TV, and no parole.

I just would rather the state NOT kill people in reaction to murder. Because it is the old "two wrongs don't make a right" thing, and the Golden Rule thing, and my vestigial confidence Christ (who was executed) would not approve...

No gloss on it, that I've heard in my entire life, has ever transmuted it to "justice". It's not. It's revenge.
I believe it twists the soul of our culture into an even darker place...

(And good people can disagree, and I know we do, my good brother.)

Hops

[Hopalong]

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Collapse-of-American-Criminal-Justice/William-J-Stuntz/e/9780674051751?&cm_mmc=AFFILIATES-_-Linkshare-_-FYUtulI7nw4-_-10:1

I would like to read this.

Hops

[river]

I was thinking that what happened here, in my exchange with mudpuppy answers the question of what happened in Georgia. This was a sample of it.   

1)  So, someone's son is killed, the pain of that loss is virtually unbearable, a parent's worst nightmare.     
2)  A man is accused of the murder. 
3) The people in pain feel better because they can now blame the 'murderer', it feels like at least theres a sort of solution. 
4) Someone says 'but thats the wrong man, it wasnt him'
5) The bereaved parents experience this as do many in the legal system as an attack on them.  Lime me saying Troy was probably innocent, is translated as Im unsympathetic to the MacPhails, helping a murderer whilst neglecting his victims.  It comes to be about 'winning' in order to feel better, not a deep concern for truth.   
7) The more the accused man pleads innocent, the more it turns into a competition to prove HIM guilty.  Its an emotional exporting of pain that becomes an 'us against him'. 

[mudpuppy]

Except that you assume what was written there is accurate.

I will skip making an unknowable assertion about what you assume and will instead point out that the large majority of what was written was taken directly from court records, not from the prosecution, the defense team, anti capital punishment advocates nor any other party with an ax to grind.

And what you dont do is imagine what it would be like if you had been executed for a shooting you didnt commit, or a child of yours perhaps.

Again, you somehow know what it is I do or don't do, but please explain to me what use it would be to imagine such a thing. Of course that would be awful, perhaps as bad as trying to arrest a dude for robbing some homeless guy and having him shoot me dead. But that goes nowhere to the specific question of Davis's guilt nor toward the larger one of whether the small chance of an execution of an innocent person should lead to the abolition of the death penalty. I'm not a death penalty zealot and wouldn't lose any sleep if it were abolished tomorrow nor will it bother me if it continues, but Mr. Davis seems a particularly weak example for opponents to be hanging their arguments on.
Since 1976 a little under 1,300 people have been executed in the US and perhaps some tiny handful of that number were actually innocent and even of them virtually every one I've heard of was a serious career criminal. Each day in the US something like 6,200 people die, most of them quite innocent of any crimes. If we're going to get in a moral huff about things, wouldn't it make more sense and save more innocent lives were we to spend our time arguing about abolishing automobiles, alcohol or tobacco?

as you know, many have been executed and found innocent later.
Where does that sit with your values?

Again, with what I know? I know a few have but I don't know that many have. A few have also served life in prison, locked away from their families and repeatedly raped and beaten by fellow inmates or sadistic guards and were found innocent later. Where does that sit with yours?  We should abolish prison?
Vastly more innocent people have been murdered, raped and maimed by criminals set free than the total number of people executed, because our criminal justice system has such ridiculously stringent rules of evidence, partly in an attempt to avoid executing the innocent. If we're weighing in the balance the value of innocent lives lost shouldn't we as a society be considering abolishing those rules of evidence?
I find it exceeding odd that so many people can read about some little girl raped and murdered by a paroled molester or some family slaughtered by a guy who has been arrested half a dozen times and is walking the streets because a cop didn't read him his rights in the correct order or looked in his trunk and found his girlfriend's disembodied head but did so without a properly executed warrant and the only response is a shake of the head and a cluck of the tongue and then it's on to the comics. And of course these IMO needless deaths add up to the thousands every year.
But let just the possibility of some doubt perhaps enter into some portion of the evidence regarding a convicted killer on death row and those same folks can't sleep at night and don sack cloth and ashes fretting over the soul of our nation. Why is that? I don't get it.

mud