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"Nobody will ever love you as much as I do"

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Redhead Erin:
Hops,

Have you ever tried just making an agreement to talk once a week or so?  Even if you initiated the calls...like maybe you could call her every Saturday morning at 10 am or so.I don't know how far you live from her, but maybe you can take her out for lunch once every so often.  No expectations, jsut food and chit-chat.  Not too invasive, but enough to keep in touch.

It seems like your current system involves a crisis, then a lot of contact in a concentrated amount of time, then overload and pulling back, then avoidance until the next crisis.  So you only share in your daughters life when something bad is happening.  Not much fun for you, painful associations for her.

Hopalong:
Erin,
Your second paragraph was so insightful. Thank you truly. That really helped me see it another way.

And I like your idea. Since she's now 3 hours away the lunches won't work, but when we're "out of touch"
the method I've reverted to is to simply leave her one voicemail a week, usually on a Sunday afternoon.

I have to make very clear I'm just saying hello...and I also have to be very careful not to insert any
emotional neediness into the message. Not "I miss you" or "I'm worried" (though those are true).
Just do the calm, adult, Mama bear, saying "Just thinking of you, hope everything's fine, things are
fine here, love you. Talk to you later" kind of thing.

At times in the past when the thread was ruptured, that seemed to keep the door open until she
felt like talking to me again.

Your summary, though, was so helpful. I wish I could share that with her. Not sure it'd be wise.
But I will definitely share that with my T...thanks again.

(He mentioned to me that his own adult D, who's been through some terrible stuff, called
him just to arrange lunch one day recently, and they just met and had lunch and enjoyed it.
He was very happy, said he told her that this felt so adult, and he was really pleased.)

xo
Hops

river:
This thread feels very live for me. 
I specially want to talk to hops now.  First, thanks for the hug back then.  I know what you're saying about not comparing responses one gets, otherwise its like sort of dysfunctional family competition stuff.  But I was in a catch 22, and could say something and be in danger of competing for attention and huggs, (looking like the angry toddler), and saying nothing and feeling ghosted, and that would be repeating pattern for me.   So, I decided to do this differently, and I appreciate the response.   I think you're exactly right when you say, you talked more emotionally and so get a more engaged response. 

And the above exchange perhaps gives me a chance to explain what Im on about when I talk about the 'Disorders of the Self' dynamic.  Ie, its not just about N.ism.   What you described with your D. is really an element of the borderline dynamic, that is relationship based on a crisis or a problem.   This is not to say catastrophically, she has a personality disorder, or is a borderline, as much to say that there is a specific dynamic underlying the way of relating of a borderline, and N or a schizoid, each dynamic gives rise to another dynamic.  I know I have the schizoid dynamic, and I have done the damage that I have done by acting out on that specific one.   Now today I try to relate from real self, not from the disorder, try to break the patterns.   Like you are trying to do with your D., you want to have real, consistent, respectful enjoyable connection with her.  And thats the task.   And for me too, to find healthy, loving ways of relating that dont enable ither of these dynamics, even in theier milder forms.   

The reason I share all this, tho it may seem long winded, is that I trully believe that its important for recovering communiteis to grasp this dynamic just like people need to be wise to Nism and its cunning, baffling destructiveness. 
I feel Im going out on a limb,  :?  I want to share what I see.  I know this understanding can  make all the difference. 

Hopalong:
Hi River,
I'm petrified of diagnosing my D with anything although various terminology has helped...
thank you for being so thoughtful about it, and sharing what you've learned.

Mostly I find I'm helped when I simplify it a lot. Just get all gentle with myself about what hurts,
what doesn't hurt...and what feels adult or its opposite. And then remember to have compassion
for her too; not get stuck in my own hurt feelings.

In my particular shoes, my current T has helped a lot because he has such a pragmatic
approach...he won't let me fixate on acronyms or diagnostic terminology (I have an anxious tendency to--
always hunting for the evil inner Nspots in myself, for example...) and he always comes down to compassion and
what-works. He's a kind of "good mechanic" T...not very fluent, but knows by listening when an
engine (or relationship) is running well or when it sounds all clogged up.

Sometimes when he sums something up, I feel like I've just heard what "healthy" is.
It has a startling kind of simplicity. So I try to mimic that thinking. It's helpful when I remember to!

I can hear how deeply you're tackling the spectrum of stuff you found in the hand you were
dealt...many kudos for your hard work, River. It has to pay off!

hugs
Hops

Meh:
Hops, I'm grateful for the way you demonstrate gentleness with your SELF because I think I have begun to do a little of that with my SELF as well probably in part because I can see a few people including your SELF do this.

I can be pretty blunt in general but also with my SELF. Always felt like I had to be hard to cut through all the nonsense.
There is probably a bit of zen balance to be learned in that (gentle and hard/strong)....

On the topic of simplicity, I think YES!, when I experience something that feels healthy and "normal" there is an EASY simplicity to it.
Maybe it's because in the company of certain people we don't have to defend ourselves so much or go into our controlling habits and stuff, don't have to apologize for ourselves.

Simplicity is something that I know I personally need more of...that is why I grabbed a book off of the free book shelf a few weeks ago called "Keep it Simple Stupid", It is sort of biblical. If only simplicity was simple.

Yeah, as I was weeding through my psychic clutter....I thought to myself "This is too damn complicated in there like a big tangled ball of a hundred different strings". How NICE it must be to NOT feel all tangled up!

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