Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
"Nobody will ever love you as much as I do"
Meh:
Hi River:
Did you have recommendations for books to read about this subject?
This topic is really interesting to me, I would like to learn more about this dynamic that is based on a crisis or a problem. Crisis and problem appears to be a constant in my mother's relationships and I saw my brother go through one crisis after another a few years ago and my mother essentially fueled it. NOW I am pretty much in ongoing crisis.
When I saw it happening with my brother I attributed the CRISIS behaviour to his alcoholism. But now that I am in the role of the person in crisis I think it has less to do with Alcoholism. (The only time I get drunk is like once or twice a year when I am at my relatives.) I have to justify it. I figure I will drink as an attempt to relate to them not really because I crave it...after a few nights at my mother's place I can't stand to see alcohol anymore...feel like I need to do a fasting detox routine or something because it physically wears me out.
It is confusing because of the alcoholism in my family but I think it is more useful to look at the Narcissism etc...rather then the alcoholism. I don't know, it just seems that alcoholism is more of a symptom of the Narcissism. Anyways. No wonder nothing is SIMPLE.
It is sometimes so ridiculous. When I was over house sitting at my mother's place...I had an uneventful day, she came home for the evening, I spent the night there with her while her husband was away hunting. Right before she goes to bed she starts trying to argue with me because I left a banana peel in her car. (YES, I did leave a single banana peel in her car). But I don't think that one thing is really argument worthy...it's sort of an excuse. So I can see her getting all ready to flip out and she is starting to tell me how horrible and rude and inconsiderate I am (after I spent the previous few days housesitting and dog sitting for her because she didn't want to take dog to kennel) this was also after she had maybe 4 glasses of wine....I just said to her "GOOD NIGHT "Nar-Ma's Name"...had to repeat this phrase 3 times. She turned around and went to sleep. I'm getting better at not arguing with her but the weird whole-family dynamic is beyond me. I mean a banana peel in the car doesnt = horrible person. Doesnt even equal slob really because I put all her dirty dishes in dishwasher and cleaned up her kitchen. I have always felt that somewhere deep down inside that I am just a horrible person!
I try to stay away from diagnosing people except in my mother's case I really just needed a way to figure out what the problem was so I did end up diagnosing/labeling her in my own mind. Maybe I should even venture to say she is an alcoholic even though I always reserved that distinction for her husband and my brother.
Funny thing is I'm nice when I'm (rarely) drunk. Maybe mean alcoholics almost always have a personality disorder. I'm sort of rambling here going into my own thing. Excuse me.
--- Quote from: river on November 26, 2011, 01:27:33 PM ---'Disorders of the Self' dynamic. Ie, its not just about N.ism. What you described with your D. is really an element of the borderline dynamic, that is relationship based on a crisis or a problem. This is not to say catastrophically, she has a personality disorder, or is a borderline, as much to say that there is a specific dynamic underlying the way of relating of a borderline, and N or a schizoid, each dynamic gives rise to another dynamic. I know I have the schizoid dynamic, and I have done the damage that I have done by acting out on that specific one. Now today I try to relate from real self, not from the disorder, try to break the patterns. Like you are trying to do with your D., you want to have real, consistent, respectful enjoyable connection with her. And thats the task. And for me too, to find healthy, loving ways of relating that don't enable either of these dynamics, even in theier milder forms.
--- End quote ---
Meh:
"I wonder if Alcoholics almost always have a personality disorder".
Does anybody else have any thoughts on this. Is anybody else's Narcissist also a substance abuser of some sorts or is it just my family?
I'm going to end this here because I'm hijacking the thread maybe.
Weird thing is Alcoholics and Narcissists seem to say the same mean spirited type things. Also the alcoholics don't even have to be drunk to say the mean things?
I mean why do they say it? Because they NEED to hurt us? They NEED our self esteem to be low? So they can continue to feel like they are in control..
Self Esteem is such a deep thing right. I went to a class about self-esteem AND it was so topical it didn't really help. Fixing out self-esteem requires like some kind of intense psychic surgery of sorts!!!!! Or I guess at least someone SMART and CAREFUL enough to understand. That is rare, I know I can't begrudge those who do not understand...but also I have to stand up for myself in the face of the ones who don't get it.
river:
Hi Hops and Boat,
Im goint to try to keep it simple (dont laugh).
For me its a way of understanding the internal dynamics that motivate a person, I was really surprised myself when I learnt this stuff as to how much I began to see people did fall into these basic character types. I see it in highly respected professionals, in anyone really. But most of all, I started by seeing in in myself, then my partners, then my foo, and on. I am also a recovering addict, and Boat, yeah, for me it was exactly that, the addiction was one branch of the underlying disorder. It was a 'character structure' which wasnt really me, but was inside me that kept driving me towards sefl-destruct.
Boat, when I first found out about the dos, I realised why I was constantly falling into the same traps, specailly with others with dos. So one problem with your mum for instance, is if she's operating out of the dos, she's not in contact with you at all, she's in contact with whats inside her head, her own unreality, and she's imposing that vision on you. She's not seeing the daughter who came to take care of her, and whom if she was in reality, she would be full of tenderness and appreciation for, she's projecting her bad feelings inside herself onto you, triggered by the said bana skin, which is now being discussed internationally :shock:
But its so baffling with these people because whilst they're doing it, they're really living in that reality (its called the quadrants), and its easy to get influenced by others when they're in their reality, specially if you're empathic. And althoug its hugely wise to keep things simple, I found that it was vital for me to understand these inner workings before I could even begin to find peace of mind for myself. (thats another story!).
What exactly her dynamic is, not sure, but its like what is inside the constant dramas. For now it seems like the alcoholism is pretty yuk.
As for the literature, Im afraid that at the mo its only in some rather ... umm full-on psychoanalytic literature. But its my ambition to write something that makes this accessible and understandable to people like you and me who need/ want to know. So would you like to help me? !! :)
Ok, a place to start is that one of the books does have diagrams in it which show the basic inner dynamics of the 3 disorders, you can get into the book on Amazon. Its 'The Therapist's Guide to the Personality Disorders', by Masterson and Leiberman. As I say, the language isnt easy, but when I persevered I was able to translate to my own experience.
nolongeraslave:
Wow, this topic has deviated (which is fine), so I may not have processed everything.
Hops-Sorry that you are feeling bad about the situation with your daughter. I've admired you much on this board as being very empathic, nurturing and caring. With your daughter, I think being calm and positive is bound to give good vibes to the other person. Just having a warm presence and the person knows they can come to you.
My problem in life is being too anxious, negative or defensive, which of course causes people to react similar. Even when I act very sweet and non-threatening to N mom, she has been complying back lately.
I may be at the point in my healing where I might be able to let go of anger and resentment, and just look at the positives in people. Looking at the positives doesn't mean accepting poor treatment, but to stop looking through life with such smudged glasses. There was an excellent article in Healthy Living how life mirrors what we think and how we see people.
I had a bad day today where I put myself in re-victimizing situation, but after several hours of moping...I'm feeling better and am trying to see the beauty in everyone, even if I have to squint!
debkor:
Hi Boat,
An interesting read narcissism in a bottle. Yes I have an N friend (w) substance addiction to pills. She would still be N (in recovery) clean. I had the same thoughts and questions as you have. Here's the link
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-tian-dayton/narcissism-in-a-bottle-th_b_249418.html
Hope it helps
Deb
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