Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: reallyME on December 16, 2007, 01:22:03 PM
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A fellow sister in the Lord brought some gentle correction to me about my habit of using capital letters in my posts. I do know that many people consider caps to mean shouting. It was not my intention to shout nor to demean anyone by this thread. I was capitalizing the word NOT in order to be sure that those who do not believe in God knew that I welcomed their responses.
I still actually do want someone to tell me what it is like to live life knowing that when it's over, that's it. I just can't fathom that, unless you really are enjoying being here on this planet and that's enough for you.
Or, do you believe that you will be reincarnated as a higher thing/person? My husband's supervisor is Buddhist and that is how she believes.
I'm really not wanting to condemn any belief by asking these things. I really would like to know what it's like to not believe as I do.
Sincerely,
Laura
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I just can't fathom that, unless you really are enjoying being here on this planet and that's enough for you.
Laura,
I really am (enjoying it here) and it really is (enough for me).
I don't think about an afterlife at all anymore, although I did at one time when my life here on earth was so miserable. I havent really analyzed what I believe--only that it doesnt occupy my thoughts at all.
CB
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Laura, I have never said that I don't believe in God, so I will explain my belief about the afterlife, since you say you are only interested.
I believe that we are put on earth to leave the place better than we found it. I believe that when we die, if we have not achieved this goal, that we come back for another life until we accomplish whatever the higher powers have in mind for us. Once we accomplish this, we pass on to the Summerlands to find peace.
I don't worry about the afterlife. I will go there when I'm ready and not before. I have to concentrate on the here and no.
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Dear Laura,
This is an interesting topic and one in which I have engaged with among groups of people in all walks of faith, or none, in workplace situations a few years ago now, during lunchtime! Particularly, when working within a multicultural setting, which I enjoyed and very much appreciated being part of, making new friends, with people of varying cultures. Honestly, we really did all get along smoothly.
Many times the subject of 'afterlife' and belief, or none, would crop up in our lively conversations.
So thank you, for an interesting thoughtfully written thread.
Very much appreciated.
Love, Leah
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Tayana, yes that is interesting. I especially like the part about the Summerlands. What is that like? sounds so blissful and beautiful.
CB, thank you for not taking offense or thinking I had an alterior motive in my thread. I'm so glad you decided to post. I think that those who have an attitude that they were put here in order to better things, are wonderful people to know. The truth is, right now, we all exist HERE, on THIS planet, and hopefully we all have the attitude to make a positive impact on our world :) Very nice, CB. Hope to hear more on this wonderful view of yours.
Tears in my eyes just thinking of the lovely thoughts about life I'm hearing. I believe we all came to this planet for a good purpose and it's so comforting to know I share this earth with others who see hope and good things as a goal while we do exist together.
Leah, thank you for your support too. I'd love to hear more from you as you're wanting to share.
I'm glad i stuck my neck out to learn of this. We are all in this boat together in more ways than we know.
~Laura
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Anyone else or would I do better to just close this thread?
I'm going C'mas carolling shortly, which, by the way, I really do not like Christmas carols, lol, go figure. it's a time to be out with other fellow believers though, reaching out to other people with a joy message, so I'll do it just for something to do. I do enjoy singing a lot. It's also a reason for my eldest daughter to hang out with me a bit and drink cocoa and talk and stuff. I am happy to be doing a people activity anyway.
~Laura
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Hi Laura,
It feels peaceful.
Thanks for asking. Being agnostic means that I don't believe there is no God, or that there is a God. It means, in my case, "I don't know, but I remain open."
I do believe that there is holiness in beauty and in loving kindness.
That they are here in this present life is such a marvel to me that I could spend my whole life just absorbing that.
The main thing I feel is a deep sense of wonder, a great sense of mystery.
I feel that any word I would try to choose to name it, or who represents it, would be inadequate.
I feel about death is that it knows what to do. Like birth.
At some point the body takes over, and whatever we think or feel about the process, it will happen as it's designed to do.
I think death works the same way as birth. Something I'll need to get out of the way of and allow.
That feels like my duty, my inborn duty, as a human animal.
If afterlife is in other people's thoughts or hearts, I'll take it.
It's enough. I don't need to be promised more.
If it's to be gone and eventually forgotten, that's okay, I'll take my turn...like every other living thing.
If reincarnation works out, I'd like to come back as a big sea turtle in a clean, restored ocean.
I don't know. It feels best to me to stay in the wide, open, vast space of not knowing.
love and thanks for asking,
Hops
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ohhhhhhh sea turtles...they are such beautiful, elegant creatures, gliding through peaceful waters, aren't they!
Thank you so much for your intimate thoughts on this, Hops.
~Laura
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You can ask my sister when she arrives for Christmas Holiday... ::looking at watch::
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your sister? send her my way. I'd love to hear from her.
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Hello Laura:
Most times I don't analyze the matter much either. I am not a religious person, but I hope I have some spirituality. It is not a question of belief, IMO. I just don't know. I am not saying there is or there isn't something "out there". I simply do not know. I am, I suppose, an agnostic. I question. My father used to sometimes say, half in jest: "well, no one has come back to tell us what it is like".
I do believe that one must try to do good to others, not to do harm. I also realise that religion is a great psychological help to many people in despair, and any help in those situations is good help. I believe in tolerance. I dislike preaching and preachers.
Like Hops I quite like being in the vast space of not knowing. Life is a mystery, and I also feel that sense of mystery. I agree with Hops in that there is a holiness in beauty, in nature, and in kindness. It feels peaceful. Yes.
All the best
Hermes
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All I can say,Laura, when I read your thread is you like to open cans(LOL). I want to write more later b/c but could not resist a comment. Love Ami
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I have noticed that a lot of people who say they don't believe in G_d don't believe in the same concepts of G_d like 'creator G_d' or 'father G_d' and I'm not sure I believe in those myself so literally! But they often believe in the spirit of good, the spirit of love- a less visual or less concrete representation of what it is religions try to denote.
I've been from faith-place to faith-place and mostly people believe the same things, and are lead towards good by the loving compassionate in their communities and towards meanness by the people with bile-agenda as I call it!
It's just the structure seems to differ but all persisting religions seem to seek and embody a spirit of good, and many have common factors like prohibitions, guidelines, prayer, study of sacred texts, compassion to unbelievers, seekers and other faiths.
This is totally what I believe Jesus was trying to teach & reach people with- and what is meant by 'the body of Christ- bringing together all people to G_d.
Of course, the Romans applied concepts of conquest to the formation of the early church and some mysticism which became formalised in the rituals which in some ways substitute a relationship with 'the spirit'.
I don't know if there is an afterlife, if there is I suspect like everything else about us beings it would be part of our organic process, a transformation that we would have little say in!
I don't believe in a reward-system afterlife for people who said or did or believed certain things- that is politically motivated manipulation of people's fears I believe. There is no hell except as a representation of the concept of never having capacity to redeem oneself, to relive the lost opportunities, to be the best self here.
If there is heaven it would be universal and unconditional and to be with whatever this spirit-thing which all societies at all times seem to have sensed and tried to discover and define.
That is my belief. But if there is not heaven- I want to live my life well here, my little tiny precious fragment of time!
Love
~Write
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A fellow sister in the Lord brought some gentle correction to me about my habit of using capital letters in my posts. I do know that many people consider caps to mean shouting. It was not my intention to shout nor to demean anyone by this thread. I was capitalizing the word NOT in order to be sure that those who do not believe in God knew that I welcomed their responses.
To address this above first. It seems that perhaps someone made you feel ashamed for not knowing internet protocol or that caps letters gets perceived as shouting in internet chat land...as if you are just supposed to know? Cap letters in literature land and writing can mean titles and emphasis...what I am trying to say is not all people will perceive your cap letters has shouting.
It is OK with me.
Lise
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Without God and my deep faith in heaven I would be the way I was when I suffered from deep depression and hopelessness.
Seek and you will find, deep down in every man and woman is the idea of God or the question of why are we here and where did we come from and what happens when we die.
I do not believe in reincarnation -- that is occult thinking and heretical -- however, at one point I did try to adopt the belief but it just did not fit within my heart.
I know that God loves me enough to not give my soul and life to another...I am deeply loved and valued as I am. The choices I have made in life will be weighed and judged at death. I want to hear God say, "well done my servant."
When we die we die in full consciousness...in other words we become fully conscious...so you can wait until you die to "awaken" or you can start doing the work now...seek healing, seek the unconscious....love one another and forgive.
This life is a stage the real world is the world of the spirit which never dies.
Lise
"The heart survives on hope."
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As I recall, during the time of this thread creation, on December 16, 2007
there was a particular issue being discussed, in general, regarding "in your face" type of postings, i.e. with all or lots of Capital Letters
especially with lots of scriptures quoted etc., all in capital letters.
Which, all in all, was resolved with dignity and poise, with an air of calm, peace, and serenity, for everyone, across the board.
Just felt led to mention.
Love to all,
Leah
What are you saying here Leah? I am only hearing what you are NOT saying? Please use your precious voice -- no matter what is says, expresses or feels your voice is valued even if it is a hurting or human voice....We care about your voice...your voice is important...we want to hear your whole voice and heart...your core is OK.
Just trying to not enable here...
Lise
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""The word "heresy" comes from the Greek αἵρεσις, hairesis (from αἱρέομαι, haireomai, "choose"), which means either a choice of beliefs or a faction of believers. It was given wide currency by Irenaeus in his tract Contra Haereses (Against Heresies) to describe and discredit his opponents in the early Christian Church. He described his own position as orthodox (from ortho- "right" + doxa "belief") and his position eventually evolved into the position of the early Christian Church.
Used in this way, the term "heresy" has no purely objective meaning: the category exists only from the point of view of speakers within a group that has previously agreed about what counts as "orthodox". Any nonconformist view within any field may be perceived as "heretical" by others within that field who are convinced that their view is "orthodox"; ""
"The word occult is derived from the Latin word occultus which means "hidden"
"Consider a person who joins an adult religion class at their local church and is taught special techniques of effective prayer -- methods that are unique to that church and not generally available to outsiders. This activity would meet all of the three criteria for the Occult: it has to be taught; it can be a silent prayer - a means of communicating without spoken words; it is directed at God."
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I was thinking about Chandra Levy"s mother when her D was murdered. I saw her on a news show and she had gone off the deep end. She was banging an Indian drum and talking really strangely.
With Scott, *I* feel horrible today,but I know Scott is fine.
So, *I* have to heal, but I don't have to worry about his well being, today.MY rise up "from the ashes" is another story(lol)
Ami
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Hello to all:
Grief can send people to seek comfort where they can. It can be overpowering.
Thinking of you Ami.
Hermes
“I am safe
I am me
All is well
Blessed be”
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she had gone off the deep end.
that's what I am finding in my interfaith search about other people's religious practices and rituals as opposed to the underlying beliefs which are strangely familiar- they can seem weird. But ours do to other people from different cultures too!
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Yes, Write. You said it.
All the best
Hermes
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Thank you all for your comments on this thread.
I have to use the computer at the library for now and I rarely get here to do so, so that is why you haven't heard from me.
When the electric company changed our meter on the house, he also fried my computer video card and power source. I am currently without any online service whatsoever and my computer is still in the shop pending payment from the electric company for repairs.
Right now, my faith in God, literal heaven, literal hell is stronger than ever. Can I PROVE these exist, no. I just choose to believe that there is such a wondrous place with golden roads and flowing greenery and a punishment for the truly evil-hearted of this world.
Hugs n blessya'll
~Laura
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I understand you, Bella. And like you, I let go, and I do have an open mind.
The world is full of strange and wonderful things, yet there are so many mysteries. I do tend to become very "ticked" by those who are in possession of the "TRUTH", and think everyone else is some kind of heathen.
Best wishes
Hermes
On being an agnostic:
""In an 1896 lecture titled Why I Am An Agnostic, Ingersoll related what led him to believe in agnosticism and articulated that belief with:
Is there a supernatural power—an arbitrary mind—an enthroned God—a supreme will that sways the tides and currents of the world—to which all causes bow? I do not deny. I do not know—but I do not believe. I believe that the natural is supreme—that from the infinite chain no link can be lost or broken—that there is no supernatural power that can answer prayer—no power that worship can persuade or change—no power that cares for man.
I believe that with infinite arms Nature embraces the all—that there is no interference—no chance—that behind every event are the necessary and countless causes, and that beyond every event will be and must be the necessary and countless effects.
Is there a God? I do not know. Is man immortal? I do not know. One thing I do know, and that is, that neither hope, nor fear, belief, nor denial, can change the fact. It is as it is, and it will be as it must be.
In the conclusion of the speech he simply sums up the agnostic belief as:
We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know.
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It is not correct to say there is no evidence to support belief in God. It is correct to say God's existence cannot be proven as fact.
Nor is it correct to maintain that because the existence of God cannot be proven as fact that therefore the only reasonable position is unbelief. Many of the most intelligent and reasonable minds in history have firmly believed in God and many of the things we quite reasonably take for granted every day cannot be proven s fact.
Nor does the declaration that 'truth' does not exist mean that it doesn't. It may be reasonable to maintain that one doesn't know what it is, but it is a large jump to say there is no truth or that all beliefs are equally valid.
I find my faith supported by an enormous amount of evidence and quite reasonable. It is not a mere choice for me but is compelled by the evidence. In fact, considering the stakes, I find faith more reasonable than agnosticism. Pascal was no fool.
mud
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Hello Mud:
I don't think the idea here is to debate belief. That is certainly not my intention. Intelligent people believe in all kinds of things, or not, as the case might be. I just wish to state my own stance, and I am doing so because other posters feel free to state their beliefs (very frequently I note). I am entitled to my belief or lack thereof.
Neither am I a fool. To you faith may be more reasonable than agnosticism. Maybe I just think the opposite, to which I am ENTIRELY entitled.
All the best
Hermes
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I do tend to become very "ticked" by those who are in possession of the "TRUTH", and think everyone else is some kind of heathen.
Best wishes
Hermes
Hi Hermes,
Yes, it is Ok for you to have a voice and just like it is OK for you to get bristled with antagonism when others speak of their truth it is Ok for us, with Faith, to feel a little persecuted or put off for statements like the one above.
It is OK to voice your dislike but be prepared for counter opinions and peoples voices to express back, especially when the subject is God.
Peace,
Lise
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Dear Lise:
At NO time have I "bristled with antagonism" or anything else, if other posters have made references to their faith, beliefs or religion. I believe in freedom of religion, and freedom of belief. If others can state, as they do constantly (and that is fine by me) their prayers, beliefs, god, and so on, then is there some reason why I cannot state what my opinion is? You will note I have only done so once, in the post above, to which Hops replied. Please do tell me if there is some prohibition on here (and I mean that sincerely) to speaking out about one's own beliefs, if they are other than the general flow.
I have no antagonism to other's beliefs. It is their own business what they believe. However, I do take exception to indirectly being deemed a fool for my beliefs. My opinion and my beliefs are just as valid as the next person's.
What I will not do is be drawn into a debate on religion. It is always a futile exercise, which generally ends in people getting themselves into a state. Sorry.
All the best
Hermes
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Dear Lise:
At NO time have I "bristled with antagonism" or anything else, if other posters have made references to their faith, beliefs or religion. I believe in freedom of religion, and freedom of belief. If others can state, as they do constantly (and that is fine by me) their prayers, beliefs, god, and so on, then is there some reason why I cannot state what my opinion is? You will note I have only done so once, in the post above, to which Hops replied. Please do tell me if there is some prohibition on here (and I mean that sincerely) to speaking out about one's own beliefs, if they are other than the general flow.
I have no antagonism to other's beliefs. It is their own business what they believe. However, I do take exception to indirectly being deemed a fool for my beliefs. My opinion and my beliefs are just as valid as the next person's.
What I will not do is be drawn into a debate on religion. It is always a futile exercise, which generally ends in people getting themselves into a state. Sorry.
All the best
Hermes
Hermes -- I understand, I was once an agnostic too.
Please read my post again - you will see that I never said you cannot state what you opinion is.
It seems to me that from other threads and posts you have been bringing up that people here talk a lot about God the bible and Christ and it seemed to bother you. I can recall you thread "Hermes again on January 13th you said:
Perhaps I should start out by saying I am not a very religious person, but hopefully a spiritual person. I was educated in an Irish convent boarding school, and that can have quite an effect on one's ideas (usually the opposite to what the dear nuns intended LOL).
I merely say this because I have noted references to religion, god and religious writers in some of the posts. I believe everyone should be entitled to his or her beliefs, or lack thereof, as the case may be. Personally, I keep my beliefs and spirituality strictly to myself.
It is clear to me that you were bringing up religion and expressing your antagonism...which is perfectly OK, normal and very agnostic like to feel when others are mentioning faith and speaking of God with such strong conviction.
Yet you are open-minded, as you say, and you are here and we value your voice and will listen to you.
Thanks (((Hermes)))
Lise
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Lise:
You call saying this ANTAGONISM!! Because I say I keep my beliefs to myself?! This is really terrible. Either that, or it is true that we are divided by a common language LOL.
I repeat that everyone should be entitled to their beliefs, whether orthodox or as far out as you wish. As the saying goes: I might not agree with what you say, but I would fight for your right to say it.
""Perhaps I should start out by saying I am not a very religious person, but hopefully a spiritual person. I was educated in an Irish convent boarding school, and that can have quite an effect on one's ideas (usually the opposite to what the dear nuns intended LOL).
I merely say this because I have noted references to religion, god and religious writers in some of the posts. I believe everyone should be entitled to his or her beliefs, or lack thereof, as the case may be. Personally, I keep my beliefs and spirituality strictly to myself. """
What did I say antagonistic in that paragraph? I said I was not a very religious person, and that is a fact. No point in me being a hypocrite and saying otherwise.
It is a bit late here now (was working and checked in here before closing down), but I shall give a bit of background to you tomorrow, if you are interested, to the reasons why my beliefs are what they are. If you feel it would be out of place for me to do so, then please tell me.
All the best
Hermes
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Hi Hermes,
Please write tomorrow...I want and care about what you have to say.
Thanks and please have a good evening and peace you. I might not be online until tomorrow eve but I'll try to get back to you soon.
(((HERMES)))
Lise
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Will do Lise.
All the best
Hermes
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Hello Izzy:
There will be no altercation from me, Izzy. You can be sure of that. I am a very fair-minded person, and I also like to be treated fairly.
Best wishes
Hermes
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Hi Hermes and Bella,
You are indeed entitled to your opinion and I didn't think I was saying you weren't.
I'm a former agnostic myself and therefore have no problem with your opinion other than I believe it to be wrong, just as you believe mine is.
I am quite content to have people tell me my faith is mistaken or wrong.
I am less content when my beliefs or their basis are less than accurately described.
In this thread have been several assertions, either directly or by implication, which are not accurate and some of which seem kind of demeaning.
First, Iraneus did not create Christian orthodoxy. He (and many others) over the years were defending the faith against Manicheism, Mithraism and all manner of other gnostic heresies. It is agreed by the large majority of biblical scholars that the gospels and epistles had all been written before the turn of the first century. Since Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate the record of what he said and did by those who either knew Him or knew those who knew Him is the basis of Christian orthodoxy. Those heresies which deviated from that record, and there were many, were quite correctly labeled as such. It is a modern myth that Christian orthodoxy was arrived at by a group of men sitting around the table at Nicea hundreds of years later. Now there certainly is and always has been debate within Christianity over what many peripheral doctrines should be, but there is almost no debate over the basic and essential doctrines.
There may be classes in how to pray in a special way available only to that church, I don't know. I've never heard of one but I would be quite surprised if an orthodox Christian church had one. We are taught how to pray in the bible itself and it is expressly open to all believers, so the implication that there is some relationship to the occult in prayer is not only demeaning it is contrary to Christian doctrine. In fact the type of special prayer described is exactly the kind of special knowledge that gnosticism promoted and which Christianity fought and still fights.
I personally would like to know the answers to some of them, but until we can find *any* evidence and facts to support answers to our questions, they will remain unknowns.
It is perfectly fine to say one isn't convinced by the evidence or finds the evidence a joke or that it has been corrupted. I don't believe the record bears any of those out, but a person can reasonbly hold those positions. However to imply that people of faith don't have "any" evidence behind their faith seems a little demeaning, for want of a better word.
Honestly, I can't understand how people can latch on so tightly onto a unsubstantiated belief just because it feels good.
I, and most others I know, don't believe in God because it feels good. The things that my faith require of me very often don't 'feel good' at all. Not proven beyond any doubt and unsubstantiated are two very different positions. Many people find faith unsubstantiated and without reason and yet will trust the latest science as fact. Most astronomers and physicists believed for many years that the universe existed perpetually in a 'steady state'. When Hubble and others demonstrated it was expanding, the big bang (which accords quite nicely with Genesis I might add) was suddenly the new 'orthodoxy'. Nothing has surfaced in 2000 years to dislodge Christianity, so which faith is unsubstantiated?
I do tend to become very "ticked" by those who are in possession of the "TRUTH", and think everyone else is some kind of heathen.
But that leaves unanswered the question of whether the "TRUTH" does exist. If one is truly agnostic and not atheistic why would one become ticked by those in possession of truth? Isn't agnostic open mindedness open to the possibility of truth? When I was agnostic I recognized that I did not know whether there was a God or whether absolute truth existed. I didn't assume those questions were by definition unanswerable only that I didn't know the answers.
I just wish to state my own stance,
If you had only stated your stance I would agree, but by implication you (and Bella) were also stating my stance on heresy, orthodoxy, open mindedness, "TRUTH" etc.
Neither am I a fool. To you faith may be more reasonable than agnosticism. Maybe I just think the opposite, to which I am ENTIRELY entitled.
I didn't say you were a fool. I was referring to Pascal's wager, which I found pretty challenging as an agnostic.
You are entirely entitled to your opinion. I'd just like characterizations of mine to be a little more accurate.
It isn't demeaning or insulting to be told one is wrong. It is to charactrize others positions as not only wrong but close minded, without evidence and only held because we are under stress or because it makes us feel good. Nobody here characterized agnosticism in such a manner so why characterize others' faith that way?
mud
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Hello Mudpuppy:
I am not "going there", I am not going to discuss the matter further. I will not be drawn into religious arguments, because it is a bad idea. Why? Because things get misinterpreted.
However, I did not tell you were "wrong", or anything of the sort.
All the best
Hermes
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One thing that has really helped me here, consistently, is to notice whether newcomers choose to share their own personal FOO or marital story. (I don't mean a tome, but a full post that gives us an idea that they are a distinct individual with a specific life story they're willing to share a glimpse of.)
I have just noticed that I feel much more comfortable having dialogue with someone who has made it obvious that they are not just a "voice", dispensing "information". But another person, woman or man, just like me, who is struggling with the particulars of a personal life.
(I don't mean identifying particulars, of course, but particulars that share with us something real about who they are.)
If that personal life is missing, and there is no reciprocal sharing of life offered, I tend to hold back.
The Net is awash with articles, bits of mental health info, lots of professionally written opinion and advice. What is unique here, for me anyway, is the clear feeling of individual personalities. Someone is offering themselves to be known.
When they are not, I am less likely to want to dialogue. (Doesn't necessarily mean anything's wrong with new posters who do not share about their own voicelessness stories/anecdotes/issues. It's just a boundary I place in my own mind around where I like to place my trust.)
It's not something anyone can enforce in this kind of format.
I'm just pointing out that we each, individually, can choose where we set a protective boundary around our own experience. I think sometimes we forget that we are allowed that decision. It's a natural decision that might come more easily to people who were not raised either with neglect (which causes us to surge past our own boundaries in hunger) or abuse (in which our boundaries were violated so often that we forget we do have or can place them).
love,
Hops (posting as guest since I timed out and sometimes lose a post if I try to cut and paste, dunno why...)
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Hermes,
I am not advancing arguments on behalf of the idea that God exists, nor are you advancing arguments that he doesn't or that we cannot know whether he does. I don't consider it a religious argument, I consider it a matter of decorum.
I am stating that while no one that I saw was disrespectful to your position either directly or by implication, (the entire original point of the thread seemed to be an attempt to respectfully elicit the agnostic view) you were disrespectful, by implication and I assume inadvertantly, to others' positions.
If I stated that I get really ticked off when people tell me there is no "TRUTH" or that I don't really believe in that agnosticism stuff because I'm so open minded or that while agnosticism is a load of bunk I do recognize that it provides psychological solace to those under stress who are driven to such beliefs because their mind is so overwhelmed I imagine you would be rather insulted. If not, you should be.
mud
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PS--
I'm not sure I made much sense, there.
I think what is a flag for me that I was trying to describe is reciprocal vulnerability.
Not 50-50, that's silly. But at least a sense that the person brings some openness and humility to the experience of sharing here.
(I don't mean indiscreet spilling = openness or that humilty = groveling or protestations of humbleness.)
I just mean, if someone comes here and begins to post information but I detect no emotional "presentness" (iow, vulnerability), then I will be more careful. And it's a real life, a real situation, that allows me to identify or respond to someone from the heart, as well as the encyclopedia-head.
Jeez, hope that made sense....(not too sure)...
xo
Hops
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Any chance at all that you could let this rest, Mud? You have not read what I posted, there was no disrespect on my part. I stated my reply to the heading on the thread and quoted a writer (from times past).
Also, I mentioned in this, or perhaps on another thread, that people often do find religion to be a psychological help in times of trouble. Any help is good help to people in need.
However, what I will NOT allow is you, or anyone else here, to adopt that SCOLDING tone with me.
You have picked the wrong person, Mud. So, please do not even think of going there where I am concerned. I hope I make myself totally clear.
All the best
Hermes
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For the record, this is what I said in my first reply to this thread:
"""Hello Laura:
Most times I don't analyze the matter much either. I am not a religious person, but I hope I have some spirituality. It is not a question of belief, IMO. I just don't know. I am not saying there is or there isn't something "out there". I simply do not know. I am, I suppose, an agnostic. I question. My father used to sometimes say, half in jest: "well, no one has come back to tell us what it is like".
I do believe that one must try to do good to others, not to do harm. I also realise that religion is a great psychological help to many people in despair, and any help in those situations is good help. I believe in tolerance. I dislike preaching and preachers.
Like Hops I quite like being in the vast space of not knowing. Life is a mystery, and I also feel that sense of mystery. I agree with Hops in that there is a holiness in beauty, in nature, and in kindness. It feels peaceful. Yes.
All the best
Hermes"""
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It feels peaceful.
Thanks for asking. Being agnostic means that I don't believe there is no God, or that there is a God. It means, in my case, "I don't know, but I remain open."
I do believe that there is holiness in beauty and in loving kindness.
Well said, Hops.
Laura, I usually don't talk much about this, but since you asked an earnest question, it deserves an honest answer.
I used to be a very religious person. When I moved to be near my brother, I joined his church, which has since gone postal. During the 4 years I was a member there, I took every opportunity to participate - study groups, prayer groups, services, counseling, etc.
Since then I have "fired" God. Any characterization of him as a "loving father" goes against the testimony of every moment of my life. A loving father does not let children suffer; a loving father does not allow innocent women to be battered by their spouses; a loving father does not allow families to go homeless.
I'm trying to make this short but maybe failing miserably.
Since that time, I have come to believe in some kind of cosmic force, a spirit like the one Hops described above, available to those who tune in to it. I believe the Gospel of Mary Magdalene which says Jesus' true teachings centered around getting us to see that the "Kingdom of god" is within us, not "up there". If there is a God, he/it is most active from one person to another, when we act in a way that brings out the best in others.
I have done extensive reading of and about the so-called "gnostic gospels" - Philip, Thomas, and Mary M. I have read deeply about how Christianity got started, Emperor Constantine's role in it, the male bishops' belief that women should be banned from any active role, the guidelines which the Council of Nicea used to determine which gospels would be kept for the Bible and which would be discarded, their attempt to draw peoples from "primitive" religions, eons old, which were goddess-centered, into Christianity by elevating Mary, mother of Jesus, to sainthood. I could go on and on.
But when I read the gospel of Mary M., it simply clicked with me, it made sense, and my deepest heart felt it was the truth. I guess I, too am now gnostic, but unlike Hops, I take the meaning as "needing no one - priest or soothsayer - to intercede for me" with God. If there is a God, my rel'ship with him or it is personal - I don't want or need any egos translating for me or telling me what god means when he says this or that.
My life fell apart during the time I was with that church. I had been raised in the Episcopal church, so was no stranger. I now am more comfortable with the idea of an "administrative" higher power, one who does not get involved in the day-to-day life of believers. It's a lot more peaceful than the heartbreak and constant disappointment of expecting a "loving father" figure to come to my aid or bring me peace. I do not know if god was responsible for the desperate times I went thru back then and the lingering effects of them currently. I have my theories, but not for this forum. I just know it is easier for me to deal with the heartaches alone than with those plus the constant disappointments and pain of belief.
towrite
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Hi Hops,
I understand every word of your #43 & #44.
tt
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For the record, this is what I said in my first reply to this thread:
I didn't reference this post, as nothing in it is offensive.
You have not read what I posted, there was no disrespect on my part.
I did read it. That's how I was able to quote it. There may have been no disrespect intended; that's why I said it was probably inadvertant. That doesn't mean it isn't there.
I hope I make myself totally clear.
Perfectly. Rather than address my legitimate and respectful points that your statements are implicitly offensive you claim I'm scolding you.
Any chance at all that you could let this rest, Mud?
Absolutely. Since your response is to ignore what I said and instead quote your first post which I didn't even refer to what's the point of trying?
mud
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I loved the question the way Laura asked it.
I am sure she would have been delighted if I'd answered: I believe exactly what you believe.
And yet, Laura being Laura, she is loving and respectful of me even though I believe something so very different from what she, as a Word of Faith Christian, believes and experiences.
That's one thing I've really loved about the board.
Our mingling. Our respect.
Sometimes we bang into each other or bang into others' bruises, but I think love and respect usually win, whatever Source or source they're ascribed to.
And that's really neat.
xo
Hops
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I loved the question the way Laura asked it.
I am sure she would have been delighted if I'd answered: I believe exactly what you believe.
And yet, Laura being Laura, she is loving and respectful of me even though I believe something so very different from what she, as a Word of Faith Christian, believes and experiences.
That's one thing I've really loved about the board.
Our mingling. Our respect.
Sometimes we bang into each other or bang into others' bruises, but I think love and respect usually win, whatever Source or source they're ascribed to.
And that's really neat.
xo
Hops
Amen.
((((((((((Hops))))))))))
With love,
Carolyn
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I went to listen to the Baha'i faith recently and they believe no religion is better than 'bad religion'.
I think it is important to cultivate a faith which sustains us in times of pain and many of the elitist ideas I have heard in Christian churches make people feel blessed and rewarded when things are going well and forsaken and punished when they are not; that is the legacy of parts of the old testament taken out of the context of the Jewish tradition of lamentation and consolation rhetoric.
Jesus shared with us his personal vision of G_d as father- of course he had the noble Joseph as his father figure here- I am not sure he intended us to all see G_d the same way, and the prayer in which he reveals his manner of prayer has become quite a 'repititious chant' in many churches; we say it faster than I can speak at one church, in fact I just pray silently now!
I don't like rituals much- one pastor told me that they help people who don't find it easy to be creative or who need a given structure to their worship, but it seems to me they always get taken out of context over time and become something they weren't meant to be or lose the original symbolism.
I don't believe in a lot of the traditional Christian teachings but I do follow Jesus' basic teachings as my own faith and that seems to work fine for me.
~W
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Bella,
I specifically said no faith can be proved as a fact. My contention is with your statement that there is 'no evidence'. Simply restating that there is 'no evidence' is not responsive to my assertion that there is. It's tautalogical. I happen to see a huge abundance of evidence to support belief in God and it's the basis of my faith.
I, and many other Christians including essentially the entire Catholic Church, happen to believe that a universe bllions of years old that sprang forth in a burst of energy and in which a series of species appeared over time is perfectly compatible with both science's discoveries (if not some of its theories) and the biblical account, so I'm at a loss as to how introducing the ID debate relates to my assertion that certain posts in this thread amounted to direspecting and misstating the basis for other people's beliefs.
But since you brought it up, courts in the US have at various times declared certain races to be properly classified as property or that Jim Crow laws were perfectly acceptable so I do not consider court declarations as to what is fact to be definitive. In fact in the case you cite most leading ID proponents objected to and disagreed with what the school board was trying to do. The school board was attempting to force the teaching of a mixture of young earth creationism and some conventional ID alongside Darwinian evolution. No ID proponents that I know of advocate it being taught as fact. Most would just settle for Darwinism to be taught as only a theory with a considerable number of inherent problems that even many Darwinists acknowledge. Unfortunately it is Darwinsim which is usually presented as incontrovertible fact.
But to return to my point; the basis for belief in God was ridiculed, possibly inadvertantly, as without evidence, as an emotional crutch based on feeling good and as (by implication) close mindedness. While there are no doubt a few people who have come to faith in those manners none of those statements is accurate for most people.
mud
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TT...I missed the funny bit, or it sailed over my head.
But thank you, and Lollie, for understanding me!
And TT, I want to say I envy your faith. At times (such as this, which has been one of the hardest weeks of my life) I truly miss the childhood personal trust I placed in God and Jesus. Sometimes I really do miss it.
But now...they're just not very real to me. I can't tell you the number of times when I was suffering and literally prayed the formulaic prayer people are taught (the "come into my heart" thing) and stared at the TV waiting for something to happen...never did. It's as though it just falls into an emptiness in me.
I guess the reason agnosticism, most of the time, feels like peace to me, is that I've given up arguing with the emptiness and have accepted it for what it is, or seems to be. I no longer perceive a giant "eye" looking, with interest or even detached awareness, at my life.
I pretty much feel alone, and the only thing that changes that for me is human love...
(the moment I typed that, my daughter called..)
:)
Hops
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Hi towrite,
I also fired God once. It was right after my boys died. Time passed. My mind cleared a little. I was angry at Him for allowing my boys to die in a senseless accident. The irony is that had I not been a believer, the accident would have happened anyway, or at least one is left to assume that. Then who would I have blamed? It rains on the just and the unjust. The same sunshine that hardens clay, softens butter. And please forgive me, I don't mean to cover you up with cliches. At some point, I recognized that in the interim I had been very lonely for the One in whose presence I had once delighted.
In thinking through it all I began to understand that by default another (I guess I could use the word you used, administrator) had stepped into the place I once freely gave to God. I was left to figure out who or what the 'other' was. I guess when it was all said and done, being the hyper-relational person that I am, I just didn't want to try to have a relationship with an 'other' in which the relationship wasn't personal/. In the almost twenty years previous, I had relished in a very personal relationship with God. Our spirits had mingled freely. I missed that.
Church history, even before Constantine and the counsel of Nicea, is riddled with power mongers and posers. But the players in those dramas don't define or dethrone God, the Devine then or now.
I just wanted you to know that I relate to your firing of God. Our outcomes are different, I returned with an even deeper faith.
Philippians 2:12-13
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. "
I wouldn't include the scripture above except that probably having been churched, you are familiar with it already.
I hope I've not been insensitive to you. You see, I can discuss spirituality, religions, customs, and such without feeling as if either of us might leave the discussion contaminated by the other.
tt
Edit in: I hold to no denominational persuasion. But I'm not a lone ranger either. I have simply learned that religion within the church community is a given. I try to skip over the 'religion' and learn about and worship God.
Dear tt - no, I didn't feel you were being insensitive to me. It fills me to be able to discuss these things without one being "contaminated" by the other. The beliefs of someone whom I like and admire enrich me; it is only their demands which impoverish my spirit.
Kate
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Hi towrite,
I also fired God once. It was right after my boys died. Time passed. My mind cleared a little. I was angry at Him for allowing my boys to die in a senseless accident. The irony is that had I not been a believer, the accident would have happened anyway, or at least one is left to assume that. Then who would I have blamed? It rains on the just and the unjust. The same sunshine that hardens clay, softens butter. And please forgive me, I don't mean to cover you up with cliches. At some point, I recognized that in the interim I had been very lonely for the One in whose presence I had once delighted.
In thinking through it all I began to understand that by default another (I guess I could use the word you used, administrator) had stepped into the place I once freely gave to God. I was left to figure out who or what the 'other' was. I guess when it was all said and done, being the hyper-relational person that I am, I just didn't want to try to have a relationship with an 'other' in which the relationship wasn't personal/. In the almost twenty years previous, I had relished in a very personal relationship with God. Our spirits had mingled freely. I missed that.
Church history, even before Constantine and the counsel of Nicea, is riddled with power mongers and posers. But the players in those dramas don't define or dethrone God, the Devine then or now.
I just wanted you to know that I relate to your firing of God. Our outcomes are different, I returned with an even deeper faith.
Philippians 2:12-13
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. "
I wouldn't include the scripture above except that probably having been churched, you are familiar with it already.
I hope I've not been insensitive to you. You see, I can discuss spirituality, religions, customs, and such without feeling as if either of us might leave the discussion contaminated by the other.
tt
Edit in: I hold to no denominational persuasion. But I'm not a lone ranger either. I have simply learned that religion within the church community is a given. I try to skip over the 'religion' and learn about and worship God.
Dear tt - no, I didn't feel you were being insensitive to me. It fills me to be able to discuss these things without one being "contaminated" by the other. The beliefs of someone whom I like and admire enrich me; it is only their demands which impoverish my spirit.
Kate
Dear tt,
Your post here is so lovely... thank you for having freely shared yourself in this way.
Dear Kate,
Your post is also lovely... and so true to me, as well -
"The beliefs of someone whom I like and admire enrich me; it is only their demands which impoverish my spirit."
Thank you both.
With love,
Carolyn
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Thank you, Carolyn, for your love and gentleness and honesty.
Kate
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What a wonderful thread.
TT, you are so spot-bang-on that it's astonishing. I love what you said about defining your own belief.
I do have one sentence that can work for me, though I normally avoid the G-word. "If god is love and only love, then I could say I believe in god." I don't very often though, because usually others instantly believe I'm talking about christianity, and I'm not. I guess theologically (in very unsophisticated terms) I can say I believe in universal salvation. I do not believe in hell, in being saved or unsaved. If god is love and only love, then all human beings (and in my brain, animals too) are in a spiritual state of grace and utterly accepted by what love is. That doesn't mean they/we all KNOW it, but that's what I believe is real. Meanwhile, we do wars and such...and craziness. But that has nothing to do with love, which I believe exists the way oxygen does. Love is the Big Beautiful Mystery to me.
Bella,
Agnosticism has liberated and empowered me too. I love the beauty and clarity of the way you describe it. And how you see faith as a different subject from belief. I feel faith too, when I tune in to love and mystery. I thank you for reminding me of this.
Carolyn,
I love you and feel loved by you. So for me, you are walking talking evidence of the goodness that can be at the heart of Christianity. You're a psalm, dear. I thank you again for being always so generous with me. I love learning from you.
love to all,
Hops
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Dear Bella:
Hope you do not mind me quoting you here, because you express exactly what I wanted, and want, to say about myself.
""Being agnostic after being raised catholic has brought me a few gifts. One of them is the gift of a strong sense of responsibility for my life, and for my decisions. I used to feel that someone else else would carry me forth, and I could leave all the hard decisions to something else. It made a victim out of me, and it made me hold back from really thinking things through, and accepting the full capacity of my power over my life. The transition was scary, and took too much time. But I am grateful to have this sense, now. My life is better for it too.
Oddly, I have better relationship with faith than when i was religious. I believe in the power of faith. I'm not exactly sure how it works, but it just does. For whatever the reason, life looks out for itself. Butfaith seems to only work when I take charge, visualize, stay positve and focussed.
Being agnostic empowered me, i feel, but I would much rather have the answers. i know i am not alone in this, and so the human race will keep searching. I am glad they will, that brings me comfort too."
I really do not like much talking about the topic, because my opinion is my own, and people seem to be unable to respect it.
Like you Bella, I was brought up Catholic, and educated in a convent boarding school, where all I/we heard morning noon and night was fundamentalist religion, imposed whether you liked it or not. The god we heard about was a punitive individual. The day was as follows: (the religious schedule I mean): up at 6.30 to Mass (I learnt how to sleep while kneeling, yes!), prayers then before breakfast, more of same after breakfast, more of same before each class, back into the church around 5 p.m. and then at 9 at night more prayers (half an hour or more). We also had three day silent retreats, with lots of preaching.
Then there were the religious study classes, most of which was learnt off by heart. After all, by hook or by crook, you had to pass the Diocesan exams.
I swore after I got out of there that never again would anyone preach to me or tell me what to believe. If they had only known that they were producing quite the contrary of their intended purpose: it was a school for future agnostics.
Anyhow, that is just a slice of my life I tend not to think too much about, the voicelessness of it all. Aside from the religious barracking, you were never allowed to have an opinion on anything, or to speak up for yourself if wrongly accused, or even to laugh. Luckily I was made of fairly stern stuff, even then, but I wonder about other pupils whose lives would have been blighted by that kind of "education".
All the best
Hermes
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Mud,
You too, are a Christian who inspires me. I know if we were 3D friends that I would smack into the walls of your beliefs sometimes. (Hey, we could talk politics? :mrgreen:). But I also know that your friendship and conversation would be something I would actively seek, value, and count myself very fortunate to have. You'd be a person I'd love to sit by a woodstove with and consider the deep quiet spaces of life. Mrs. Mud too, what a radiant lady she must be. Some folks who've undergone conversion seem to gain such strength, without losing compassion, and I think you're one of those. I imagine you as sincere in prayer, nonmanipulative, and watching Fox News :lol: very honorable. If we were in the same community and shook hands on a deal, I would not hesitate for a moment to relax and know my trust is well founded.
I really like you, Mud. Your decency is obvious and I think I imagine you as the "good brother" I always wished for.
You said something here that was helpful to me:
Isn't agnostic open mindedness open to the possibility of truth? When I was agnostic I recognized that I did not know whether there was a God or whether absolute truth existed. I didn't assume those questions were by definition unanswerable only that I didn't know the answers.
For me, and that's not to say this is a correct definition, my own agnosticism is not about the possibility of truth. It's only about the possibility or impossibility of god. I think truth is inexpressible on this planet. Facts are something we can approximate in language, but for me, absolute truth...never. So where I retreat is when people base a belief in absolute truth on a text. My agnosticism is about god. I don't worry about the bible because I don't believe it is divine. A wonderful, fascinating and inspiring book, with cruelty and love and hope and pathos and transcendence in it. Poetry and story and inspiration and sad litany. But not holiness. I never find holiness or absolute truth on paper.
I do find love everywhere. And if god is love and only love (nothing else, no other story or creed), then...etc.
Thanks for listening. You make my brain stretch.
hugs
Hops
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((((((((((Hops)))))))))) I've missed you... and I love you, too. Thank you for always building me up at just the right time.
You're the bestest.
xoox
Carolyn
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Hops,
Thanks for the kind words.
I consider truth and God inseperable, not only because Jesus proclaimed himself to be truth incarnate but also philisophically. If there is a transcendant and infinite God who is the creator of all things then He would seem by definition to be truth. The only other possibility would be for some falsity to exist in him which would mean He is not transcendant.
My agnosticism is about god. I don't worry about the bible because I don't believe it is divine.
I have yet to meet an agnostic who does believe the bible is divine, for obvious reasons. :P
One doesn't come to God by first believing He inspired the bible. One responds to the unction of God and finally understands in one's heart He exists and then what is divine and what is not becomes clear.
Some folks who've undergone conversion seem to gain such strength, without losing compassion, and I think you're one of those.
I believe all folks who have undergone true conversion have gained both strength and compassion. Anyone who hasn't gained both through their encounter with God has not truly been converted; their heart has not been transformed and they are just in an elaborate and pointless masquerade.
I would like to apologize to Hermes and Bella if I sounded a little defensive earlier. Most Christians are fairly use to the insinuation that we must either suspend our reason, our intellect or both to believe. I don't think either of you meant that but it can be a little tempting to read between the lines after years of hearing it blatantly stated by people who do mean it.
Being agnostic empowered me, i feel, but I would much rather have the answers.
That would seem to be the one thing no one needs to worry about. Everyone has their questions answered in the end don't they?
mud
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When I came to God, I got there 85% by reason and logic(purely intellectual processes). The LAST 15% was a leap of faith.It is still a leap of faith,now. Maybe,it sounds "bad" to say this, but since we cannot 'see" the spiritual world, we will always have to take some of it on 'faith"
Maybe, that is WHAT "faith" is--- the leap.
I hope I have not offended anyone. This is how *I* see it, for now, anyway. Ami
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Makes sense, Mud...
a transcendant and infinite God who is the creator of all things ... would seem by definition to be truth.
I think this dialogue has helped me get more clear. I do not know if a god would be the creator of all things, I think I've departed from that concern (it's too big for this brain)... I'm just stuck with "if god is love and only love" -- that seems like the only creed for me. And for me, it's enough.
I respect and understand your beliefs, Mud, and you make them beautiful.
Hops
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Me too, Bella.
It reminds me of my neighborhood.
But I've come to love my neighbors anyway.
Their good hearts bring them out to the street every time the ambulance has come for Mom.
And when I invited them to her 97th birthday party at the last minute, they all came.
It was lovely.
love,
Hops
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Last night I helped serve communion. I was holding one goblet of wine and one of grape juice. I would say-the blood of Christ shed for you-and they would dip their wafer in one of the juices. A man responded to what I said with a-thank you Jesus. The tears started rolling down my face and I could not wipe them because both hands were holding a glass. I could barely utter the words when the next person came up. It was the first time I understood communion after being raised as a Christian.
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WOW Kelly.
That is really, really big. I have had God in the head ,for many,many years. Only recently, have I gotten Him ,in the heart.It is a totally different experience to "feel" Him, with the heart,isn't it? Love Ami
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Yes. I have always been a Christian but was raised where God was punitive and intolerant. I am so anti establishment when it comes to pretentious Christians. My journey has been one of peeling away all the wrong ideas and embrace He who is love. My parents' church has many new believers who had issues with drugs and alcohol-they are so excited to be free from addictions and to have hope. THAT is what it is about-not that you cannot miss church or you are going to hell.
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You know ,Kelly. I have recieved an unconditional human love, recently ,which allowed me to get a small taste of God's love. We can be good, bad, "holy" ,not" holy", etc and God's love is above it all.
I got a taste of human unconditional love and I feel much more free to be "real" and not strive to be so "perfect", within myself and with others.
Maria is not afraid of being "bad", as far as God is concerned. She knows ,in her heart, that God loves her and it is NOT based on how good or bad she is.Maria really surprises me at times with what she says and does(lol),but she "gets it" about the unconditional nature of God's love.
S/how , she was able to get to this level. I am starting to get there,now. It sounds like you are, too, Kelly. Ami
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CB,
My faith is an easy, confident faith these days. Yes, it will all work out. And, yes, I really am okay. Not because of anything I have done, but because it doesnt depend upon me. Maybe you all discovered this long ago--but I think we all betray our true beliefs when we struggle with others over what they believe.
I agree with what you say here CB. Sure a person can search, and expand their knowledge God, but when its all said and done His law is non-negotiable. We must fit into what He knows, not the other way around.
tt
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My faith is an easy, confident faith these days. Yes, it will all work out. And, yes, I really am okay. Not because of anything I have done, but because it doesnt depend upon me. Maybe you all discovered this long ago--but I think we all betray our true beliefs when we struggle with others over what they believe.
I agree with what you say here CB. Sure a person can search, and expand their knowledge God, but when its all said and done His law is non-negotiable. We must fit into what He knows, not the other way around.
tt
tt, well said. Thank you. For many reasons, this was just the thing for me to read right now... and yes, we must fit into what God knows, not vice versa.
And I am so glad to know that you are really okay.
Love,
Carolyn
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My inquiry is sincere Pls tell me what life is like without belief in God/heaven. That was the question first asked on the thread.
So, I can reply directly to that question by saying that life is perfectly peaceful and normal. Not having a belief does not make one some kind of undesirable person, nor does it make life some kind of strange dimension without direction.
I think I am a reasonably sane and normal person, who tries to do her best, not do harm and live within a code of ethics.
I hope that answers the question.
All the best
Hermes
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Hermes, yes that answered the question, however then I have another question to you, as I'm sitting here listening to a recording of an atheist debating a theist, is ...since you do not have a belief similar to mine, about God,etc, what happens when you leave this earth in your belief?
~Laura
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Hi Hermes,
It's a conundrum I know, but I think that professing not to have a belief is in itself a belief. Maybe I'm way off. Wish I could debate this (or anything) in a schololarly fashion, but can't.
tt