Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: reallyME on January 06, 2008, 08:14:33 PM
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I've been wondering, pondering (I know, uh ohhhhh)
When we ask someone something and are expecting a favorable answer, do we not phrase our question so as to MANIPULATE the person's favorable response?
When we post on this board, do we not manipulate to get people to see our side? Even by just saying what we do, someone will feel lightly urged to see things our way
At least that's how I see it.
I think LIFE is manipulative. I KNOW sales jobs ARE. I SEE that children ARE. N's and BPD's definitely ARE.
Am I? Well, when I say "I don't mind private messages, bring em on!" doesn't that seem like I want to manipulate people into sending me private messages so i can have attention? Probably so.
If I say "Go ahead and TRY ME" I'm egging people on to come at me.
If I say "I don't give a rip" that's manipulating people by making me appear so strong and noncommital
See what i mean? Don't we ALL manipulate in some way even when we're just communicating?
Just a thought and by the way, I LOVE pms so bring em on! :)
Cheers,
Laura
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RM,
Yes, you are so right. I have often thought if N were to read this board, he would certainly have a different slant on things. I try sometimes to remember that I definetly want to present it correctly, but of course you tell it how you see it. N had called me manipulative and it threw me, but yes I guess in his eyes I am. I wanted him, so I tried to do what I thought would obtain that goal. Would the question not be, do we manipulate for the purpose of harming or to only be seen in a better light? If so, does one outweigh the other? Again just ranting, had a long emotinal weekend.
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thanks for responding Alone. I appreciate you.
I know I became manipulative with X toward the end, because i so wanted her to realize that, just cause I was maybe the first one who ever dared to point out the flaws in her home situation, doesn't mean I was the only one or that it was all in my "perception" of things.
I know what I saw and heard and experienced. I remember it even to this day and will someday be writing about it in a book, but the point was, X would not even consider what I was showing her about herself and how she treated people, me, others, herself. so, yes, I'm sure my forcefulness in trying to get her to SEE TRUTH, felt very manipulative to her.
ANyone who feels pressured to see something they don't want to see, is going to feel manipulated somehow I think.
~Laura
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Hi Reallyme-
Life is so full of manipulations, it is true- symbolic and actual. But sometimes a rose is a rose is a rose...
Are you saying that communicating with an agenda of gaining consensus is a manipulation? I would think that planting falsehoods or exerting coersive pressures would be manipulation, but simply persuading openly...? Will have to think about this.
Love,
Changing
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I believe we all manipulate, the motivation may be the real question. Small children manipulate their parents, gf with bf, etc. Maybe we should use a different word than manipulation, sounds so sinister.
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a bit off topic, but related to your post.
I noticed that you told Ami to leave her mother alone as she lives far away.
It is is the past.
Can you do the same about X? I remember that whole miserable story from awayyyyyy back and found it most disturbing!
Izzy
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There is a difference between Bean and me. X in my case is long gone. Ami was recently planning to move her mother closer to her, remember? Her mother is very much still in contact with her and even recently, PHYSICALLY.
I haven't seen X in about 3 years now nor heard from her.
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Reallyme-
I still think that a nebulous definition of "manipulation" might perhaps make a cogent discussion of it somewhat difficult. It would help me if you could define your terms a bit more. Does manipulation in the sense you mean it, include all forms of persuasion, or only those which utilize trickery in order to attain a hidden agenda?
Thank you,
Changing
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Well, changing, I guess I was just making a point that we all do things, expecting intended results...not that all manipulation was bad, but that most human interractions are "manipulative" of another person in some way.
~Laura
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Laura,
I think theres an enormous difference between influence and manipulation. Manipulation is an act that limits another person's power to choose, and disregards the rights of others. Influence is the art of getting what you want from others, but its inherently respectful.
A person of `Influence' accepts `no' for an answer, and often with good cheer. The relationships is not upset because of it; that person is not made to feel threatened or uncomfortable for saying `no'.
A `manipulator' will not accept `no' for an answer , because they do not respect the rights of others. They will often become surly, reject the relationship, act coldly, use pressure or threats to get what they want.
Respectful people don't manipulate, they influence.
Abusive people manipulate.
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Dear Laura,
I was thinking about this question. It is really a form of the question that I always ask about our "shadow side". I guess that we all have the potential to do everything. I guess the important point is what we "give" in to. Would like to hear people's comments.
Thanks Laura,for your fearless honesty,once again. Love Ami
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Laura,
I think theres an enormous difference between influence and manipulation. Manipulation is an act that limits another person's power to choose, and disregards the rights of others. Influence is the art of getting what you want from others, but its inherently respectful.
A person of `Influence' accepts `no' for an answer, and often with good cheer. The relationships is not upset because of it; that person is not made to feel threatened or uncomfortable for saying `no'.
A `manipulator' will not accept `no' for an answer , because they do not respect the rights of others. They will often become surly, reject the relationship, act coldly, use pressure or threats to get what they want.
Respectful people don't manipulate, they influence.
Abusive people manipulate.
Thank you, Bella,
For explaining with such clarity the difference between 'Influencing' and 'Manipulating'
As you rightly highlight, the truth, that Respectful people don't manipulate, but rather, they influence, to good effect and outcome.
Leah
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Ya know, Ami
I'm not so sure lately just how "fearless" my honesty is. There are a few people exhibiting some tough defense mechanisms on here that I find quite daunting, to say the least.
~Laura
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Dear Laura,
It helps me to remember that I am here to find my voice. I have made wonderful friends,of whom I consider you one. I have had warm times.I have helped people and people have helped me. However , the most important thing for us is to discover that part of us that we had to give up--our voice. If people don't '"get"you, it doesn't matter. Some will. Some won't.You are very special to some,like me, and many others,too. You are here to find your unique "song ", Laura. That is how I see it, anyway. Love Ami
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For me, personally, the reason I am here is to share, support, learn, and grow.
It's NOT all about the 'board' and 'other people's current mode ot thinking, or not'
I am grateful for Bella writing with such clarity something that I have struggled to explain, myself, in real life, as a human being.
How much more do we really need to excavate beneath the 'board'?
Surely, the digging part is done?
Thinking Positively and 'outside the box' ........... It would be so much better to build on a new foundation, maybe? Hopefully.
But then, that just something positive that occured to me, so ignore or compost, as one wishes. :)
Leah
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Laura,
I think theres an enormous difference between influence and manipulation. Manipulation is an act that limits another person's power to choose, and disregards the rights of others. Influence is the art of getting what you want from others, but its inherently respectful.
A person of `Influence' accepts `no' for an answer, and often with good cheer. The relationships is not upset because of it; that person is not made to feel threatened or uncomfortable for saying `no'.
A `manipulator' will not accept `no' for an answer , because they do not respect the rights of others. They will often become surly, reject the relationship, act coldly, use pressure or threats to get what they want.
Respectful people don't manipulate, they influence.
Abusive people manipulate.
Thank you, Bella,
For explaining with such clarity the difference between 'Influencing' and 'Manipulating'
As you rightly highlight, the truth, that Respectful people don't manipulate, but rather, they influence, to good effect and outcome.
Leah
Thankyou Leahsrainbow!!
I struggled with the question myself after a relationship with an N. N's project so many of their own motives onto others. They see the worst in people, because they don't understand goodness and empathy. If you've been around that kind of abuse,especially in a family or romantic relationship its a struggle to reclaim your own goodness. Sometimes it hard to see it in other people as well. I've been loved by a good person for 5 years now, and that really helps.
X bella
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Thankyou Leahsrainbow!!
I struggled with the question myself after a relationship with an N. N's project so many of their own motives onto others. They see the worst in people, because they don't understand goodness and empathy. If you've been around that kind of abuse,especially in a family or romantic relationship its a struggle to reclaim your own goodness. Sometimes it hard to see it in other people as well. I've been loved by a good person for 5 years now, and that really helps.
X bella
Bella,
My problem has always been that I have always looked for the good in people, and so, afterward, I would get slighted for being naive / gullible.
Still prefer to think of good in people. Not everyone is an N in real life. I know some truly wonderful people who are respectful in every way.
And thankfully, due to my life choices from a teenager, I have empathy, again, that has been abused in the past, however, healthy boundaries makes a huge difference now.
So very glad to know that you have been loved by a good person for 5 years now, that's truly wonderful, and heartwarming to know. :)
Love, Leah
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Dear Leah, I can relate. I have a kind of inner pendulum that swings from too much trust to very little trust. But you're right; boundaries really help. Now if only people would respect them, lol. People love a good listener, and someone who understands. They want to dive in close, and I rarely know how to stop that. I really have so much to learn.
You are so wise leah; its a pleasure chatting with you!
x bella
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Dear Leah, I can relate. I have a kind of inner pendulum that swings from too much trust to very little trust. But you're right; boundaries really help. Now if only people would respect them, lol. People love a good listener, and someone who understands. They want to dive in close, and I rarely know how to stop that. I really have so much to learn.
You are so wise leah; its a pleasure chatting with you!
x bella
Oh, thank you ever so much, Bella
No one has ever called me wise before, not sure that I am really.
People have always seemed to want to share their problems, even while standing at a bustop :) and I always seem to have been a listener, from a teenager onwards. Maybe that is due to having interacted so well with adults, from a very young age, in my parents business.
However, my learning is life-long, always learning something new, which I love so much.
Respecting boundaries, now I was just thinking on that subject, while pondering my thoughts and words in response to your thread.
It is a real pleasure chatting with you too. Thank you.
Love, Leah
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I think we all manipulate sometimes- I think manipulation is dishonesty, any way you look at it- I guess it depends on the intent and the toll it takes on the other person:
For example, when my wife and I first started having marital problems (when I had gotten eveidence she was seeing someone else), she would tell me how much she really loved me. I believed her- she wanted to kep the marriage going for her own economic purposes.
The worst manipulation tactic was she stayed at a vacation spot for a month after I came home- I had to go back to work. I got the most beautiful card/ love note from her. She told me how much she loved me. how she wanted to be my wife forever and on and on. I had that card on my dresser and would re-read it at night. I felt hopeful.
As it turned out, she was afraid I'd move out before before she got back from vacation- she wanted to keep me "hooked in." And then she went right back to seeing that guy when she got back from vacation. The humiliation I felt when I figured it out is beyond words.
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Thats so awful Whistler!!! Its so rough to be manipulated by someone you trust and love, fr the sake of money. I had a live-in boyfriend once who was having an affair, and had made up his mind to leave me. He didn't let on for months, and in that time had me paying off his debts and he removed our most expensive possessions from the house (he made up a good excuse that I believed). When I finally discovered the truth, I just couldn't believe it. I just couldn't. It was the worst betrayal of my life. The worst part about the financial ruin I experienced was that I was in no position, emotionally, to sort it out. I was a wreck.
Sorry to rant, but i can relate!!!
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Dear Whistler and Bella,
Life just really hurts,sometimes, doesn't it? Love Ami
((((((((((((Whistler, Bella))))))))))))))
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Manipulation is dishonesty- I guess we all do it.
But, as a few of you have pointed out, it depends on the extent and damage done.
After I confronted my wife about her possible involvement with another man, our relationship was obviously stressed. But I wanted to believe her.
I came home early from summer vacation because I had to work- she stayed there with son for another month. One day I got the most beautiful, romantic card from her-
She told me how much she really loved me, how much she wanted to be my wife.... on and on. I kept that card on my dresser for months and re-read it every night
I came to find out when she came back from vacation, she went right back to seeing the other man- and she just wanted to keep me "hooked in" for economic purposes
and didn't want me to move out (which we had discussed at one point). The love card was a manipulation. I felt sooooo humiliated.
I guess my frusatration is/ was that when I would tell these things to people they wouldn't believe me. Counselors believed her. And because I am a man, I must be the one who is being abusive (that is the message I feel I get)
My wife is/ was so manipulative it was beyond most people's belief. I ended up with PTSD myself - but I'm a guy and I think people would laugh at that. I was told by one counselor after I said my wife had pushed me and blocked my way out of the room-- "Oh, a big guy like you is afraid of a little woman?" THAT's NOT THE POINT-
Yes, I could have thrown her across the room- and gotten a DV charge against me- but the stress was overwhelming.
I had all of the symptoms of PTSD - thanks for listing those. The funny thing is I can't find a counselor who will believe me- I was told again "you know, you could have been imagining that."
I know this is going to sound harsh- but it's true to a certain extent- if I were a woman, most people would believe me right away- I would find help easily.
I feel so angry- I still feel "voiceless."
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Sorry I thought I accidently erased my first post.