Author Topic: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves  (Read 36106 times)

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2019, 11:25:31 AM »
Continuing on the theme of having a reciprocal relationship with myself at the moment, so today I got my back fixed (it feels worse at the moment but that's normal, tomorrow or the next day it will feel fabulous) and then I went to the beach for an hour.  I think an hour a day at the beach needs to become my new therapy; just sitting there watching the waves is incredibly relaxing and the beach I've been going to is a quieter one used mostly by surfers so I've got the sand to myself.  I put my blanket out and there's a big piece of drift wood to lean against; it's lovely.  You walk down from the road so you can't really hear the traffic and there are rocks high up around all three sides so it feels cocooned in.  It's lovely.

I had a good meeting with the social worker yesterday and have got together some information for her today and sent it off so will wait to hear back from the funding panel now as to whether the application has been successful = should hear in about three weeks time.

I have reached out to a couple of friends and heard nothing back and I can feel in myself that I am losing interest in them now as well.  That's what I find hard - I get to a point where I can't muster up the enthusiasm to see them because of the lack of effort on their side and it just sort of dies off.  But - it is what it is and there's nothing I can do about that so will just have to leave it be.  The special needs parents have a Facebook group that I've joined and that seems good; they're quite active and sharing information about the various battles which is helpful.

lighter

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2019, 01:45:55 PM »
I'm glad the meeting with the social working went well.

::crossing fingers for super outcome::.

Your description of the beach is restful, and calm.  I want to rest against your driftwood, and listen to the waves too! Stretch those sun warmed muscles!

The friends not getting back to you leaves more room for what comes next.  I just have to believe there will be new connection for who Tupp has grown into.  Tupp isn't who she was 15 years, 10 years, 5 years ago. 

Who is Tupp TODAY, and what does she want?

I don't think you've had time to contemplate that.  You hardly have time to breath, and sturdy yourself for the next challenge.  As you busy yourself with new interests.... as you discover things older wiser Tupp wants more of.... people will be drawn to you, IME. 

Lighter



Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2019, 02:06:45 PM »
I'm glad the meeting with the social working went well.

::crossing fingers for super outcome::.

Your description of the beach is restful, and calm.  I want to rest against your driftwood, and listen to the waves too! Stretch those sun warmed muscles!

The friends not getting back to you leaves more room for what comes next.  I just have to believe there will be new connection for who Tupp has grown into.  Tupp isn't who she was 15 years, 10 years, 5 years ago. 

Who is Tupp TODAY, and what does she want?

I don't think you've had time to contemplate that.  You hardly have time to breath, and sturdy yourself for the next challenge.  As you busy yourself with new interests.... as you discover things older wiser Tupp wants more of.... people will be drawn to you, IME. 

Lighter

It is lovely there, Lighter, it's my current favourite place.  There's a little car park and a coffee hut at the top so I can get myself a coffee and then plonk myself down and absolutely no-one bothers me.  No phone reception, either :) Yes, the me now is different to the me of times past so I am trying really hard to focus on what I can do and where I can go rather than what I wish other people were doing :)  It is getting easier, I'm finding it easier to focus less on wishing someone would ring and more on what I'm doing tomorrow or which group is on this week.  And also starting to enjoy being at home more.  There's a really good second hand furniture shop near us so buying bits and doing them up will be a good project; the house still feels higgledy piggledy because nothing really fits but I can slowly replace things that will work better and we won't move anywhere smaller than this so I won't need to worry about whether it will fit another place.

I think Tup today wants real connections, you know?  Being able to talk about thoughts and feelings, chatting about books and films and environmental stuff - feeling comfortable enough not to worry about what I'm saying or wearing or doing.  It's starting to come, I think the Tup of old was much more focused on pleasing other people.  Much less so these days.  So yes, hopefully those kind of people will start drawing in.

I will let you know what happens about the social care assessment; fingers crossed! xx

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2019, 02:43:29 AM »
I've been thinking more about what I want, Lighter, and trying to notice what I do and just 'see' it as it's happening (as you do so well!) and what I'm noticing is I think that, for many years, I have just filled my life and my mind up with what other people are doing.  Not so much in the day to day sense of actual contact but in my mind, I've always tended to look at myself in relation to other people instead of just me - stand alone, what do I want, what am I trying to do.  I think that might be why I'm struggling a bit now - I feel a bit unanchored and untethered and it always makes me wonder what to do next.  Loneliness underpins everything I do and I think I've always felt lonely, because I don't think loneliness is really always to do with being around people.  I've had many periods in my life where I've had a lot of people around me, but I don't think that noise and/or being busy is the same as not being lonely?  I'm looking back across my life for connections and there aren't many - a few, and probably the earliest one with my dad, who unfortunately, wasn't around for long.  So I think perhaps I tend to fill the void with mental chatter and there is a deep longing for other people and I think what I really need to focus on is the sort of activity I'm doing and where that takes me.  I think what I've tended to do is find myself in a situation and then try to ingratiate myself with the people around me - whether it's work, family or just other parents at a group.  And perhaps what I need to be doing more is 'doing' what I love and then connecting with people I come into contact with that way, if possible.

I noticed my usual urge (and routine) when I wake up is to fill my head instantly, either with television or online, scrolling through websites, forums, Facebook - all looking for distraction or a sign of some connection somewhere.  I also tend to get up straight away, however tired I am.  So - I have forced myself back to bed, did come on here as I wanted to write it down before I forgot, but my aim now is to spend as much time in bed today as I can.  The tiredness has a lot to do with it, as we talked about in the other thread (I forget which one now), but the way tiredness means you reach for the usual habit because it's more difficult to form the new one.  So - I don't have anything I need to do urgently today.  I can stay in bed and rest, read, listen to music.  And it will be okay xx

sKePTiKal

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2019, 07:35:44 AM »
Having that quiet time in bed, was recommended to me about 10 years ago Tupp. What I do during that time has changed a lot. Lately, I've been spending the time letting the thoughts rise and drift off and just relax as much as possible into the coziness. Sometimes it's just 15 minutes; sometimes I spend a whole hour that way.

It's just a time-out at the beginning of my day, to connect with ME. And it makes a difference! When I don't have the luxury of that (or healing of it) I'm discombobulated all the rest of the day.

I do get to look out my window, listen to the birds, watch the light change as the sun comes over the ridge... and enjoy the cool thermals that come up off the cliff behind the house. My time to "just be" right there with my self. It's consoling and reassuring and I think, might be assisting my rebuilding of confidence.
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Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2019, 05:42:49 AM »
Having that quiet time in bed, was recommended to me about 10 years ago Tupp. What I do during that time has changed a lot. Lately, I've been spending the time letting the thoughts rise and drift off and just relax as much as possible into the coziness. Sometimes it's just 15 minutes; sometimes I spend a whole hour that way.

It's just a time-out at the beginning of my day, to connect with ME. And it makes a difference! When I don't have the luxury of that (or healing of it) I'm discombobulated all the rest of the day.

I do get to look out my window, listen to the birds, watch the light change as the sun comes over the ridge... and enjoy the cool thermals that come up off the cliff behind the house. My time to "just be" right there with my self. It's consoling and reassuring and I think, might be assisting my rebuilding of confidence.

Thanks, Skep, I think it just comes down to new habits again.  I struggle to rest when I'm not exhausted and I think that's what I need to do - make myself stay in bed and read if I don't have to be up just yet, make myself sit down in the afternoon and put a film on, give myself an hour in the bath, before I get so worn out I can't manage anything but that.  I think that's where I trip up by getting on with things until I physically can't do anymore.  I find it hard not to think about the things that are lacking in my life when I'm resting and I think that's part of the problem - the loneliness and sense of isolation finds a way in  and that gets me down.  So I think it's practising new habits until they become the new normal for me.

I'm re-thinking how I am towards others as well with things like birthdays.  I've been looking at the efforts I've made so far this year for other people's birthdays and again, there is a sense of inbalance, although more along the lines of keeping in touch (and by that I mean I can see I've made quite a lot of effort for people that I realised I don't really hear from anymore and who I've given up phoning because they don't call back).  Again, I think it's just habit, I hadn't realised I was doing it so I'm going to need to cut back there and have a bit of a re-think.

In other news - I spent almost all day in bed yesterday (or shared between the bed and the sofa) and then bought fish and chips for tea so I didn't have to cook.  Couldn't quite face staying in bed anymore today but have had a more leisurely start to the day then usual and am planning on having a quiet, slow and steady day with a trip to the beach this evening.  I am very glad it's half term now and we don't have to be out the door at any set time any day next week.  The pressure that creates is quite immense and I'm glad this academic year is almost over so I won't need to be doing it for a good while through the summer.

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2019, 05:23:38 AM »
Just jotting things down as I think of them or notice them.  I did an hour in the garden first thing this morning - just tidying up but I definitely prefer being outside to in and physical work suits me better than brain work, I think.  I spent a couple of hours sorting out 'stuff' indoors last night - just reorganising stuff, sticking things in the loft or shed to free up a bit more space indoors, bagging up a few bits for the charity shop or to turn into something else, found a couple of bits I'd been looking for, organised a few more photos for son's 'This is your life' book for his 18th.  I like doing stuff like that as well.  Defo prefer that sort of thing to paperwork and day to day housework but seem to spend far more time on the stuff I don't like rather than the stuff I do.  So need to work on tipping that balance the other way.

sKePTiKal

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2019, 09:37:06 AM »
A couple of observations/thoughts/resonating recognitions all whisked together this time, Tupp. As you write things down, get it out of your head... I can see them better. Doesn't mean I'm "right" about what I see; but some of it may be useful to you.

Primary connection

I believe (rightly/wrongly) that for most of us, we grow our connection to ourselves via the connection we have with our primary caregivers. I kinda suspect that our foremothers knew this instinctively and that explains the tradition of moms being practically still physically attached to their infants for the first months of their lives. Think papooses, and how comforting it must've been to still be carried by mom, while making the transition to consciousness of the world around the babe.

I believe our ability to trust ourselves and have a measure of self-confidence also derives from that early imprinting. Attachment theory has a lot to say about that, so I won't expound. But doing the work you're doing now, it might be a valuable research project to you. The operative relationship that transfers being totally cared for and protected by the caregiver - to an internalized sense of "being OK" within oneself, come what may - is called "mirroring". Mom reflects back to babe, what BABE is and feels; corrects things that Babe can't fix for him/herself yet; and slowly lets go the responsibility for that over the toddler years as Babe begins to be able to physically operate the world around them.

Imagine how proud babe is of herself, the first time she can pick up a piece of food herself or finds she can throw snack all over herself, the chair and the floor! Later, she learns - oh, that doesn't get the food where I want it > in my face!!

Now, imagine how babe feels if she is screamed at, or hit, or "punished" by being removed from the food, the companionship of caregiver, and is told she is "bad" - over & over for years as she fumbles her first attempts at developmental achievements.

Imagine what happens to babe, if she's never "seen" as being a separate person from mom - with Babe's own feelings, thoughts, habits, personality - and is constantly told she's "just like - mom, when she's "good" and dad, when she displeases "mom". Babe never has the important "mirror" feedback of WHO SHE REALLY IS and that IT'S OKAY to be HER.

If she's lucky, she finds someone else later in life, who can be a clear mirror for who she is and doesn't complicate things, with their own internal crap. (Yes, probably just like I'm doing right now - but you're smart enough to separate the "me" parts out.)

Should is double-edged sword

There are shoulds that come with consequences attached. "I should pay my bills today" comes with the kicker, if the bills are late or simply unpaid. I try to follow those, but I also have to watch that I'm not making them more important than they really are in the general scheme of things.

But all the other shoulds are negotiable; and I ask myself: do I really WANT to do that? (regardless of what other people think is important - and that includes the so-called "balance" in my life; what works and is important to others isn't always on my "need" chart right now) I no longer worry about if I'm "normal", because I'm seeing that I'm enjoying how people are different from each other, way more than how we're alike. Sometimes it works that we want to spend time together; sometimes it doesn't. That doesn't necessarily imply that it's impossible to have a relationship with that person or that circumstances might not alter how we both feel at some other time. Just means it's not going to fit the recipe we've been told (conditioned to expect) "should be" what is.

There are some consequences attached to the 2nd type of shoulds. If I choose not to invite someone over... and maybe Holly's feeling social or restless or has an obligation to someone else... I can find myself alone. But that doesn't mean I'm lonely. I might put off doing certain jobs because I'm a bit anxious about tackling it on my own. (I'm trying hard not to hurt myself, and learn my physical limits.) Or I might be bored, with silence... or not being engaged with other people. But "lonely" only comes to visit me occasionally. I'm just weird that way, I guess.

And even when I don't feel I have any energy at all - I CAN still read and learn something new. Or re-arrange some corner of the room, to allow room for new impressions of the space, etc. (Sometimes, I have to move things back, though... LOL.)

It's amazing to me, some days, how comfortable I am with my self now. I used to find being alone the worst kind of torture and deep down believed I was going to go stark raving mad - a drooling idjit - if forced to be alone for any length of time. Then, I started working with actually drawing boundaries between "times I wanted to be alone" and "times I wanted to socialize" - and that was awkward too. I'd just get comfy one way or the other and the shift would be intense.

Having Holly here - and her spontaneaity and her generation's established "hang out" culture - I've adjusted to a smoother transition between both solitude and groups of people. It might just be having the practice, you know? It takes 5000 repetitions before something new feels "normal" to you; before it's internalized; before it's just what you do... and are becoming.

I'm using me as an example... of the choices; not as an example to emulate. I don't know how to talk about things like this a different way. It's just like Hops & I have different goals in mind in online dating. A lot of our experiences and observations overlap; but we're both going to a different kind of solution that works just for us.

PS, I edited the typos more than once. I find I'm skipping words a lot now when I type. Brain's moving too fast these days.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 09:44:33 AM by sKePTiKal »
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Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2019, 11:19:01 AM »
Yes that all makes sense, Skep (and I didn't notice any typos! lol), especially all about not being mirrored by a parent and therefore not learning who you really are.  I really see that in myself and have done for years now.  The example I often use to explain it was when I read Dr McBride's book about narcissism (which was the first time I'd ever heard of the term and before I found Dr G).  One of the sections is a quiz about your personal likes and dislikes - food, clothes, the way you decorate your home, what you watch on TV, films, books, holiday destinations - just stuff about your life.  I couldn't answer a single question for myself - I couldn't even decide what my favourite food was.  But I knew the answer for my mum on every single question.  That really brought home to me how invisible I was to myself, as well as to everyone else, and I guess that's what I'm still working my way through all these years later.

I think the thing with being lonely, for me, isn't that I like being around people a lot (I don't) and it isn't that I don't like my own company (because I do) but I think it's the sense of not being important to (many) people - or at least, not important just as I am, as a human being, rather than being important because of what I do for them.  What brings it home to me is times like today, when it's a Bank Holiday.  Most people are (a) spending time with their loved ones and (b) out and about doing things because it's a public holiday, the weather's nice and there's lots on.  It make me very aware that almost everyone else I know is with the people who are important to them - and that isn't me.  And it's not that I expect people to make me more important than their husband or kids or their own parents, or other friends - it's just that it really hits home to me that I just don't have those connections with people.  And yes, I do think that's a lot to do with never forming a real attachment with myself, because I just had to be sycophant to mother so that she didn't feel crap and I'm still figuring myself out 46 years later :)

But - I have just sat down and planned out our activities for the month!  We've got two groups a week now, both of which I enjoy because the people are nice.  We've got two meetings with the sustainability people (one I'll go to on my own, one son will come as well).  We're going to a drumming circle next weekend, quite a long way away to a place we don't know so I'm looking forward to the drive and maybe stopping at a new beach on the way home.  We'll do cinema and beach trips as usual and we're seeing two places this week that son will hopefully be able to go to with a carer over the summer holidays (just waiting to see if we've been awarded the funding but hopefully it will come through).  We've also got another couple of beach cleans and son's college are having their own Prom so he will be off out for the evening.  Things are starting to move in the right direction and I think we'll continue to meet more people who are into the same sorts of things I'm into and I think it will all start to get better.  It's just hanging on in the tough times that's difficult, isn't it?  I think if I focus more on what I can do, rather than who I can do it with, then things will start to get better.  I will read more on attachment issues as I think it is relevant and yes, making new habits and breaking old patterns is blooming hard work!  Lol xx

sKePTiKal

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2019, 05:52:08 PM »
Well, you're important to US, Tupp! (We start getting worried if you don't post for awhile.)

I've been by myself most of the day today too. But that's about to change when Hol gets back with former house guest. He doesn't have to work; it's warmer in town and the temps are going way up for the next couple days. I think we're going have a little bonfire... Amazon style.

Got burgers for the fire, and sides already chillin' in the fridge... so not a lot to prepare. Just a quiet evening.
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Hopalong

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2019, 09:45:52 PM »
HELL YES, TUPP IS IMPORTANT!
RIGHT HERE, AND THOUGH WE'RE IN THE ETHER, WE DO VALUE YOU TUPP!

FOR REAL IN REALITY!!

Y'all have had an amazing back and forth and I resonated with what you each said and won't try to chime in, not admitting that I had 2.5+ glasses of wine...

More soon, just checking in ....

with lots of love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2019, 05:07:38 AM »
Thanks, both, you are all very important to me as well and I'm not meaning to sound ungrateful (because I am truly grateful for a lot of things in my life) but it's the lack of real time day to day people that I am really struggling with at the minute - no-one there to chat to in the evening or while dinner is cooking, or even to sit and eat a meal with.  No day to day contact with people I know well, and trust, and enjoy being around.  No physical contact, no cuddling up, no affection, no getting a foot rub whilst watching a film.  It's those things, that lack of close relationships, that I thought would change once I cut myself off from the unhealthy relationships.  But instead of that void being filled with healthy relationships it's remained a void for nearly twenty years now and I just don't know what else to do to try to fill it.  There's only so much joy from reading a book!  Lol xx

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2019, 01:45:41 PM »
I had a realisation today which I think is an important one (that's assuming I've got the right angle on it!).  I bumped into a friend who is one of the friends I've been feeling down about as I don't see or hear from her very much.  The way I interpret people not getting in touch is that they're not interested enough in me to want to make any effort to see or be around me too much.  But - as we were chatting, and she was telling me what she's been doing recently and who she's been doing it with, I realised she doesn't have any boundaries.  Everything she told me was a situation that she didn't particularly want to be in, but so and so had phoned, and so and so else had turned up uninvited, and x, y and z had asked her to do this, and so on and so forth, and as she was telling me I realised that she hadn't actually been doing anything she wanted to, she just can't say no to anyone else so she spends almost all of her time running round after other people - just like I used to.

And as I thought about that through the afternoon, I realised that almost everyone I know is like that as well - so many of the people I know don't make time for me because they don't actually make time for themselves or for doing what they want to do - they're running round after others, who they then moan about because they're not doing what they want to.  And I always took that to mean that I come even further down the list than all these people that they complain about - but I don't think it is that.  I think they're just not able to say no, or prioritise their own time, or just say to someone, "I'm having a quiet one today so no, you can't come round".  And I used to be exactly the same.

Does that make sense?  It felt like a big weight lifted off my shoulders.  It just suddenly seemed clear that it isn't that people aren't bothering, it's more that they're like I used to be - they tend to respond rather than being proactive about what they want to do and who they want to be with.  It's exactly what I used to be like - always waiting and being available and never putting my own needs first.  It just made me think about things in a different (better!) way.  And I feel less hostile and down about it - which I hope will last :) xx

lighter

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2019, 07:21:23 PM »
That makes complete sense, Tupp!  I spend time wondering why I have a hard time saying NO, then work on stronger boundaries.  It tends to go in and out of shape,  IME.

I'm glad you're feeling better about your social situation.  You're lovely, and assuming you're the problem wasn't productive.  People get slammed, and swamped if they can't discern what they want need from what others want/need, IME. Thanks for the reminder.

How was your weekend?

Lighter



Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2019, 01:55:15 AM »
That makes complete sense, Tupp!  I spend time wondering why I have a hard time saying NO, then work on stronger boundaries.  It tends to go in and out of shape,  IME.

I'm glad you're feeling better about your social situation.  You're lovely, and assuming you're the problem wasn't productive.  People get slammed, and swamped if they can't discern what they want need from what others want/need, IME. Thanks for the reminder.

How was your weekend?

Lighter

Thanks, Lighter :)  Weekend was quiet, which is what I wanted :)  I am pretty good at saying no now, but that's also what's played a big part in my loneliness, I think.  I don't tend to accept last minute invitations any more, because it means I can't do what I planned to do.  I also tend to keep my distance from other people's drama now, which means my drama swamped friends tend to go elsewhere for their drama analysis.  I used to enjoy playing amateur psychologist, but I tend to just find it a bit tedious now.  And chatting to that friend was a revelation; it made me see that I've grown and changed and because most of my friends haven't, I have sort of left some of them behind.  The sort of friendship we had doesn't really interest me anymore - so it's probably actually more that I'm rejecting them, instead of them rejecting the newer, more boundary focused me!  And that does make sense, because I know I've lost friends when I've set boundaries (and my older sister is a good example of that - since asking her not to keep coming round with her divorce drama whenever she felt like it I've more or less not seen her since.  Which I took to be that she didn't care about me, but now I think about it I think it's more that her own lack of boundaries means she doesn't hear a boundary being set, she just hears "don't come near me".  Which isn't what it was).

But I think that's the thing, growing and changing, working out our own crap, whilst dealing with our kids, work, court battles and whatever else we're doing, often means we haven't got the time to hand hold other people, or stay with them while they continue to do what they always did - particularly once we see that we aren't doing it any more.  It's a bit like giving up drinking or smoking, I think - you kind of need to stay away from people who do those things while you work on not doing it anymore.  It made me realise I often feel like I'm in teacher mode with people - if they've not yet learnt to say no or put themselves first (and are complaining about that) I find it tiring - particularly when they're not at that point where they're ready (or want) to do that themselves.  It's a hard path but it made me feel better because I'm suddenly seeing that it's not that I'm bad or inherently unlikeable - I've just moved along the path quicker than some of my friends have and it's meant I've rushed off on my own a bit xx