History: Born or bred?

[chutzbagirl - Reply]

Right on Longtire!  

I am done with N's.  Today it feels so good to say I am done with N's!!!  37 long years of dealing with them is enough wouldn't you say?  We should get medals of honor or trophies made of pure gold.  N's are living nightmares that we don't wake up from - we can only walk away from them.  

Chutz

[Anonymous]

Chutzbagirl,

37 long years of dealing with them is enough wouldn't you say?

37 seconds is a lifetime's worth.

N's are living nightmares that we don't wake up from - we can only walk away from them.

Aint that the ever lovin' truth? Sometimes though, it feels good to step on them as we're walking away.

In the category of hitting the road after 37 long miserable years, the gold goes to Chutz. (Standing ovation and wild cheering in the background)

mudpup

[Chutzbagirl - reply]

Hey Mudpup,

I think you are funny.  

This site is good.  I've found that in general, people don't get N's.  They don't get how sick they are or how difficult they are to be in relationship with.  (That's not really even possible.)

All I ever really knew growing up was that my Mom was a lot sicker than the other adults I had contact with.  However, I wasn't able to put my finger on it.  The frustrating thing was that she could appear so "cool" and put together.  

It's a beautiful thing to have contact with others that have been stung by N's.  Perhaps, after the children are safely tucked in bed I shall have a little bonfire tonight and incinerate the last letters I wrote to a couple of N's on my Mom's b-day.   (That's my version of stepping on them.)

Chow for now,

Chutz

[Anonymous]

They don't get how sick they are or how difficult they are to be in relationship with.

Agreed. That's what's so frustrating. Nobody believes anybody would act that crazy. What motivation would they have to be such friggin' nuts?

Good idea about the bonfire Chutz.
As I recall though, you're out here in CA with me. Is it dry enough for a bonfire where you are? In my neck of the woods the frogs are heading for high ground.  

mud

[Chutzbagirl - reply]

My silly little version of a bonfire is placing the letters in a weber and incinerating them with a creme brulee' torch.  It's actually a lot of fun.

The last time my husband and I did this ritual was with a card my N Mom sent me after the big detachment.  The card was total b.s. and deserved to be burned.  

But to answer your question, your memory does serve you right and the frogs in my neck of the woods are heading back to lower ground.     It's spring break and all the kids need to go out and play!  

Chutz

[Hollow-cost Survivor]

I don't feel any need to step on the N's in my life-- I just feel an incredible desire to save myself...however I can. It's the hardest thing for me to walk away from someone who is suppose to be in my life--that I would like in my life, in theory.  Maybe they even should have taken care of me, instead of hurt me. My insanity is to keep thinking maybe this will someday change. Ya know, I don't even mind any more that I have been ingnored, but why the deliberate destruction? That's the trauma! What really gets me is the attempts to destroy me and then they can think I have a persecution complex...if I do, I earned it!  Now I have to free myself by emotional and physical separation and drudge through the sadness and emptiness. The great thing is that I know myself a little better and it doesn't have to include thier opinion.

I endure deep sadness in "giving-up" on trying. How will the world ever change if we continue to walk away? We can make great changes in the world one little step at a time. Don't think I misunderstand, and, think about this for a minute-- are we feeding the N frenzy by only saving ourselves? HELP!  I know what we need to do and that's save what we can and know when to walk, but it troubles me that this problem seems like poison ivy running rampid. I know it's not our problem... but who's problem is it? How can healing for the greater whole begin? Why do you suppose that teenage boy in Minnasota went on his rampage?
Nobody was watching close enough, I suppose.

[Anonymous]

I catch my character flaws when dealing with those extremely difficult people in my life. I know this is an opportunity to thank them for the chance for me to grow in character but if I find it too difficult to accept and don't like myself in this process, it seems my only choice is to walk away---this too seems a failure to me....is this survival or does it serve all?

Hi Hollow-cost survivor,

Narcissists (and other disordered people) are so difficult to interact with, are projecting so massively all the time, and acting out so much, that they provoke stuff in nearly everyone. In fact their unconscious agenda is to provoke others into acting out, and to induce bad feelings in others. Even the most seasoned psychiatrists and psychoanalysts are provoked by these people. It's not a weakness but just the way we're hard-wired to react.

There is a continuum of strategies, from total submission at one end, to complete avoidance at the other end. Sometimes walking away is the optimal action. In between are some alternatives for dealing with these individuals. I don't know what your family is doing, so I can't give any examples. I cut off my parents for years but now I can deal with them. At that point in time, I couldn't. But it turned out that there were strategies, I just had to learn them. But sometimes the best strategy is to get away from them because they are so destructive.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Denial, denial, denial.... that's why it's so hard to talk to most people about Ns. They can't see it because there is so much denial about it.
Heck, as a society we're taught to ADMIRE people like this. They're 'go-getters', they 'take no prisoners', they're not afraid of competition, and so on.

I've been thinking about this and realizing...

For centuries! it was considered OK for a man to beat his wife. And for parents to beat their children. I mean beat. Bruises and broken skin. Did you know? in ancient Rome, a father could have any of his children put to death, at any time, for any reason. Or no reason.

Most of us don't think like that now, thank God.

We recognize alcoholism as an addiction now, and co-dependence (and cod-dependence too, Longtire!  ), and we know that addictions are a disease.

AA didn't even exist until ~60 years ago.

Restaurants and bus stations and so forth were overtly racially segregated in parts of this country even 40 years ago.

20 years ago, none of us knew what verbal abuse was. Not to call it by a name. We 'knew' something was wrong, but without the words to describe it, how could we make progress against it?

Social progress moves, but slowly... unfortunately, an individual human spirit needs to escape from these things faster than the human race as a whole seems to be able to face them and deal with them.

The thing is, once you escape, it's a lot easier to show others the way out. Think of it as The Underground Railroad. Once you get out, you can be a safe house for others.

Come to think of it, this is a safe house, isn't it?

Free at last, free at last
I thank God I'm free at last
Free at last, free at last
I thank God I'm free at last!

Storm

[Anonymous]

I endure deep sadness in "giving-up" on trying. How will the world ever change if we continue to walk away? We can make great changes in the world one little step at a time. Don't think I misunderstand, and, think about this for a minute-- are we feeding the N frenzy by only saving ourselves? HELP!  I know what we need to do and that's save what we can and know when to walk, but it troubles me that this problem seems like poison ivy running rampid. I know it's not our problem... but who's problem is it? How can healing for the greater whole begin? Why do you suppose that teenage boy in Minnasota went on his rampage? Nobody was watching close enough, I suppose.

Your walking away and saving yourself isn't a crime to humanity. It's permitted to do that. You aren't contributing to the problems of the world. In fact you're setting a boundary which is a helpful thing to society. You are allowed to save yourself.

As for the boy in Minnesota, his father had committed suicide and his mother is in a mental hospital. And I'm sure that was only part of his problems.

bunny

[chutzbagirl- reply]

Hi Hollow-cost,

I'm sorry that your are struggling with grief.  N is a very sad condition - it is heart breaking to watch people self-destruct.  I have spent many late nights in tears over my N family members - praying for them, wishing things could be different.  I'm sure I'll have more teary late nights in the future.

However, sometimes during my grief process it just feels good to call a spade a spade.  The N's in my life have been amazingly hurtful.  Anger is a natural part of grief, that's what the "stepping on" is all about.  It is a wonderful release to be a little "mean" and do some saucy name-calling with my close friends every now and then.   Laughing is a stress releasing therapy for me.  Sometimes irreverant humor is just what the Dr. ordered.

If there was ANYTHING I could do to help my family members get healthier I would do it in a minute.  But, the sad fact is I am completely powerless over them, their illness and their inability to treat me with a basic level of respect.  The N's in my life are severe - unless there is supernatual intervention there is no hope for growth or change.

My focus is on my family of procreation.  Thankfully, my husband and I are both committed to growth and parenting.  Our marriage has improved since I've detatched - probably because I'm not chronically reeling from the N's behavior and I'm learning how to ask for what I need.  (Lots of reasons for the growth.)    I am committed to loving the people God brings my way and praying for the courage to let go of the people that would harm me.  (My codependence = a compulsion to attatch to people that are unable to meet my needs for love, value, affirmation, etc...)

I wish you the best in this detachment process.  It is gut-wrenchingly difficult at times.  

Chutz

[Portia]

Hollow-cost,
About the “deliberate destruction”. It’s not personal. It’s not that they set out to destroy you although it feels like that. In appearing to want to destroy you, they are trying to defend themselves. It’s about them and their mental structures, not about you. You don’t exist as ‘you’ to them I guess. ‘You’ are simply a repository for their crap. When they try to destroy you, they are lashing out against their own demons. It’s a dangerous place to stay around, so you don’t.

Be sad. You will always be sad about what you never had, the love that some children receive. You will always mourn that loss. I will. It was just bad luck that you were born to family that couldn’t love you and accept you for the wonderful unique person you are, deserving of love and respect simply because you exist. You have to give that love to yourself. That’s so difficult. I find it incredibly difficult.

I feel the same as you about the way of the world. It seems impossible. But it’s not your individual responsibility, nor mine. We can only do our small bits. Humans aren’t the greatest thing. Maybe we’ll die out and the planet can continue without us, maybe that would be a ‘good’ thing. Maybe the increase in what I sometimes see as rampant narcissism is nature’s way of ensuring that a bad mistake will kill itself off. Would it matter? Not really.

Only we care: the universe doesn’t care, the universe (choose your own words for ‘everything that isn’t us’ here) is probably neutral. It exists because it exists, it’s neither good nor bad. The way through for me is to be like that: I exist because I exist. I can do my tiny bits to be helpful and not harmful, as I see those things.

If we are helpful and take care not to be harmful, we’re doing our best.

I’m a teenager too at 43, still full of dreams and aches. I refuse to become deadened, denying, fearing the release of death, which is what being ‘adult’ looks like most of the time. Life isn’t perfect and won’t be, accepting imperfection and uncertainty might help us. Please don’t grow up (((Hollow-cost))). I like you as you are

[vunil]

You are allowed to save yourself.

This is such a wise statement (hey, Bunny, please write a book!).

I have struggled with my guilt over wanting to save myself really my whole life. I have a friend now who is struggling with it, too. It is insane that we don't think we have permission to do what we truly need to do!  But I finally finally "got" that the reason I felt guilty about something utterly within morality and sanity for me to do was that....(drum roll) ... they taught me to feel this way.

Light bulb!  They sure as hell do whatever they want to do, with no regard for my feelings. I on the other hand thought of their feelings first (and sort of just stopped there).  Once I realized I am allowed to (required to!) put my own feelings first, because I am the only advocate for the poor guys, then it became easier to start to pull away.

I haven't pulled all the way away but it sure feels nice knowing I gave myself permission to if I want to.

Hollow-cost, are you feeling  anything like what I felt?  That guilt over what you need and want because you've been taught to denigrate yourself in service to others?

[Hollow-cost Survivor]

I, too, grew up never asking for what I needed. As a result, I learned to do without, and learned to depend on myself…no one else. Being independent can be both good and bad…everything in moderation is OK.
Of course, this is not the case emotionally. I try to be emotionally independent but I have since learned that needing someone in this way is wonderful for both concerned.  

It was just bad luck that you were born to family that couldn’t love you and accept you for the wonderful unique person you are, deserving of love and respect simply because you exist. You have to give that love to yourself. That’s so difficult. I find it incredibly difficult.---

Please don’t grow up (((Hollow-cost))). I like you as you are

Well, you made me cry Portia. I haven't really internalized this thought before of someone liking me only because I exist....especially because you don't know me...but somehow, I feel your words. Thank you. Wow, how simple.

Portia, regarding, "You have to give that love to yourself. That's so difficult. I find it incredibly difficult." I also find this really hard. Do you think not liking ourselves, regardless of the reason, is a N trait? Well, at least we are more aware...is this part of the difference?  It IS wonderful to share this devestation and resurrection of our personalities and life with all of you. It's nice to know we're not alone, yet I'm always hurt by how much of this sadness is around us. Why isn't the world taught to be parents BEFORE we have children? Everything seems so backwards sometimes.

[Hollow-cost Survivor]

Vunil,  
I feel almost exactly like you. I could have written your post. Thanks for asking and thanks for putting out there.
Hollow-cost

[Portia]

Do you think not liking ourselves, regardless of the reason, is a N trait? Well, at least we are more aware...is this part of the difference?

NPDs can’t ever admit to not liking themselves (genuinely, they might fake it), there’s too much shame underneath and they can’t be self-aware. To be vulnerable and feel things as you’ve expressed, that’s healthy. To be aware that something is wrong and you want to get better – to me that seems the biggest leap of success of all!  

Why isn't the world taught to be parents BEFORE we have children? Everything seems so backwards sometimes.

I hear and coincidently I agree. I don’t know why. It just is like it is. (((Hollow-cost)))