Terri Schiavo and narcissism

[write]

I missed the end of Mrs Schiavo's life, being out of the states, but I am shocked to read of it now. What could people be thinking to turn a family into a battleground like this?

There seem to me to be two issues: whilst a family should define with consensus amongst themselves the outcome of a sad case like this, what defines 'the family'? What if there is no dialogue let alone consensus? If there is even a hint of egoism ( never mind narcissim ) dignity and consideration quickly fly out of the window as primary motivation.

And second: the role of governement and legislature in the life of the individual.
That most private place, death, deserves to be preserved as an individual passing, not to be take over by people who at the end of the day are basically seeking to preserve their own political careers.

People here will understand what I am saying, but would a narcissist?

[vunil]

Like you, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the motivations in this case.  I guess we all had no choice since it was on the news 24-7.  The problem is, I think it was a mix of narcissism (on both sides), genuine love, philosophical disagreements about what life is, and a personal long-standing animosity between the parties.  Not a great mix....  Unlke the cable news stations, I didn't think there were any obvious bad-guys versus good-guys in this case, although I had my personal opinion about who was doing the right thing.

But at least it got us all talking.

I think Americans can be very naive and childlike, and narcissistic about what we can control.  I think that a lot of people didn't realize (or want to think about) what the end of life looks like for many people-- a sizeable number of us die in hospice, with fuzzy boundaries between when we are here versus gone, and a lot of drawn-out pain to the families. That's just what it looks like (I've been through it before with a number of relatives).  Taking out the feeding tube is how a lot of people die.  

Someday a very smart person will be able to figure out everything that went on here and how it was driven by 45 different forces.  But I agree with you narcissism (along with the other 44 things!) played a role.

[bunny]

I think it was a basically a messed-up family's dirty laundry played out in public. We would see thousands of these dramas if they all got on the news. As for congress getting involved, that was just some crap. Guess I'm getting jaded in my middle age.

bunny

[vunil]

I think it was a basically a messed-up family's dirty laundry played out in public. We would see thousands of these dramas if they all got on the news. As for congress getting involved, that was just some crap. Guess I'm getting jaded in my middle age.

You don't have to be jaded to find that whole thing despicable.  That poor woman was used as a football in some kind of sick contest.

But why did so many of the public get so involved?  That's what I find interesting.  It was kind of like Lady Diana's death-- yes, it was sad, but also it had an everyday quality to it-- people do die.  Where did the unfathomable grief come from?   My guess, as a person who has no idea whatsoever but just feels like talking about it ( ) is that suddenly we as a nation had to look death in the face, the real stuff (not in movies) and we just didn't like it all that much.  And we were so surprised at how messy it all is!  That is the part that shocked me.  I assumed most families had faced taking out a feeding tube at one time or another, and knew that this is how it sometimes goes at the end of life.

All of the messiness and refusal to admit that things don't always go the way we like, and that even if we wish someone would get better, they might not, and that there are not always absolute rules (and that we don't always know the only moral way) and furthermore just because we didn't get what we want doesn't mean the person disagreeing with us is evil incarnate-- all of that was pretty embarrassing to watch.  It was like watching all of the N in our society reflected back.  Ugly!

What did folks in other countries think? I know we have some brits on the board.

[Anonymous]

From what I understand Terri was looking into getting a divorce at the time of her "heart attack".  As I watched this ordeal unfold on TV I viewed it from Terri's position of possibly being in an unhappy abusive marriage and related it to my own life.  

What if something had happened to me during those last two weeks when N was "getting things in order" before he left our marital home?  I hadn't told anyone about what was going on between X N and me.  Had something dreadful happened to me...X N would have been the one to decide my final fate.   We all know what his decision would be.

I don't like the fact that it took Mr. Shiavo 7 years to come forward with his wife's "wishes".  My gut tells me there was something dark going on here.  Sanctity of marriage?  This man started a new life with another woman and had two children with her.  IMHO he forfeited any sanctity of marriage he was entitled to.  Mr. Schiavo reminds me of my X N so I am prejudiced against him.  

Although Judges ruled on this one way... it doesn't necessarily make it right.  Believe me, Judges make mistakes.  It will be interesting to see the autopsy results.

I truly believe that it was not clear as to what her wishes were and I would prefer to err on the side of life.....especially since there is a strong possibility that a N was her "guardian".

This is just my opinion and I hope no one takes offense to it.  This probably belongs in a crossfire section.

[Anonymous]

That was my post.

Mia

[Andrea]

Ok, I have to give my two cents.

When my father died, he was on life support. He had such a bad stroke it was apparent he would never be the same. In my parents will, it was decided no life support.

We took our father off at 4pm on a Tuesday night. He lived until 3pm on a Saturday. Was it hard to do? Yes.  Hard to watch? Yes. Did we feel it was almost cruel? Yes. We felt bad like maybe he was "thirsty" or needed food.

But the thing was he wouldn't of wanted to "live" like that. Is that really living? Is it worth putting your family thru the stress and financial burden of keeping a heart alive that has no purpose but to beat?

It's a hard decision to make, but you know what? If we didn't have all this medical technology today, he would of had his stroke and been gone. We're the ones who jump their heart, put on life support, give the IV's too keep them going. Because WE don't want to see them go. If we let nature well enough alone sometimes, things would happen as God intended.

(Don't get me wrong, medicine can work wonders, but sometimes it also can prolong a lost cause.)

[October]

What did folks in other countries think? I know we have some brits on the board.

As far as I understand the law in this country (UK), if a person is in a persistent vegetative state, which is one where doctors say there is extensive brain damage and no chance of recovery, and all that is keeping the person alive is the feeding tubes, then an application can be made to the courts to allow the feeding to be withdrawn.  I am not sure whether this is made by the family or the doctors, but I know that it has to be decided by the courts, and there has to be consensus that there will be no recovery.

Following this decision, the feeding tubes are removed, and the person is allowed to die with dignity, and in the presence of their family.  This has been the legal situation for some years now, since, I think, a case following the Hillsborough tragedy some years ago.

I think that my views from a distance of the Schiavo case are that many people attempted to make political capital out of a personal tragedy, and I am very relieved that the courts did not allow this to happen, but sad that it took 7 years to reach a decision.  From a Christian point of view I believe in the sanctity of life, but I also believe in the sanctity of death, and I do not believe that to put a tube down someone's throat and keep them alive when they would otherwise die is right.  When there is no hope whatever of recovery this becomes a form of cyrogenics; a denial of the reality of death.

Some people have called this death murder, but that to me is a gross misrepresentation.  To withdraw food from a conscious person is murder, but to take artificial sustenance from a person who has effectively been dead for over 15 years is an act of compassion for all concerned, I would say.

If I can make a very general comment about the US, having never been there, and from the outside , I would say that there is a focus on eternal youth, and a denial of ageing and of death that is rather disturbing to see.  We suffer from it too, but perhaps not as much yet.  There is an old saying; 'Everyone has to die of something', and yet every death is seen as a tragedy, every illness as avoidable, every mischance as someone's fault.  When in reality death, illness and mischance are everywhere in life.

[vunil]

I know Michael Schiavo was really villified in the press.  Who knows what he deserves or doesn't deserve, but I found a site that isn't political and doesn't take a stand on the issues but that does outline a lot more about Michael than I knew.  For instance, it took him so long to sue to take out her feeding tube because he was trying a lot of therapies in hope she would get better.  He went to nursing school to try to help her as much as possible, which of course took time.  

Here's the site if anyone wants to read a bunch of facts about the case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo#Malpractice_suit

(Of course, fact can be presented lots of different ways.  But I thought this site was very matter-of-fact.)

As if we need any more information about it!  But I have the opposite feeling as Mia, I guess because I saw all kinds of parental N in the parents.  AND... (da da da dum) my parents are N.  So welcome to projection land, I guess  

[Anonymous]

Andrea said

But the thing was he wouldn't of wanted to "live" like that. Is that really living? Is it worth putting your family thru the stress and financial burden of keeping a heart alive that has no purpose but to beat?

A year and a half ago my Mom, my brothers, and myself stopped dialysis and had the feeding tube withdrawn for my Dad.  However, it was clear that this was my Dad's wish.  In Terri's case, I'm not convinced that it was her wish and I still think her hubby has something to hide.  This leads me to Vunil's quote:

As if we need any more information about it! But I have the opposite feeling as Mia, I guess because I saw all kinds of parental N in the parents. AND... (da da da dum) my parents are N. So welcome to projection land, I guess

 

I'm projecting too.  I'm sure if I had N parents I would be on your team, Vunil. But since I have a XN that reminds me so much of Shiavo...I think he is the N.    Will the real N please stand up.  Anyone remember TO Tell the Truth?

[Anonymous]

Oooh man, I keep forgetting to sign my posts today.
sorry, that was me again.  
mia

[mum]

Mia, I have (as you well know) one of those ex's as well.  And when I read a bit about the husband I did raise an eyebrow.  But her parents were unrealistically hanging onto....what?  What is so very awful about death?  Why are they soooo afraid of it after so long for thier child?
Their attachment was disturbing, as the pain of having thier child in that state became some sort of sickness in and of itself.  I abhor (sp?) what was done with this politically, as Terri was no longer a human but a cause.  It disgusts me.

But in thinking of all of this, and having a very N ex,  I don't really believe all the ills of the earth can be seated in those N laps.  All the evil and negativity in this world may seem, on a personal level, to come in that N package, but there is so much more to life than THEM controlling everything. Not everything they do is pure evil (just a whole lot of it).
I am certain NO ONE can ever know what went on in that family, perhaps not even Michael or the parents...."truth" is a very difficult thing to pin down.  I, for one, am happy they let her body go, as her spirit may well have gone quite a while ago.
As my own mother is leaving this life, many of her children have concluded, that the "real mom" left us a while ago.....and her body is just waiting to catch up....
This is why I was happy they let it be, and let her body go....

[Anonymous]

I have two big problems with this case.
First, the primary doctor who diagnosed PVS is a euthanasia enthusiast who believes Alzheimer patients should be denied food and water and who once diagnosed as PVS a person who could comminicate non verbally and feed himself. Thank goodness that court rejected his diagnosis.
He only examined Terry Schiavo once for less than a half hour. On that single cursory exam hinged her life. Most experts in the field take many hours over several weeks to make a diagnosis. Even so, a study found a forty three percent error rate in PVS diagnoses. People argue the death penalty should be abolished because a small fraction of people are falsely convicted. Its a good argument. Why are so many people willing to hold a pillow over the face of people diagnosed with PVS, when apparently nearly half of them aren't. Actually holding a pillow over their face would be more humane than dehydrating them to death. Imagine if your local pound were caught dehydrating and starving the animals they euthanize.

Second, her 'wishes' as to being kept alive were dependent on the testimony of an interested party and his brother. If somebody had approached the court and said Terry promised me her boom box after she died, this person would be tossed out of court. But if its her life that's at stake, the court is willing to listen to the testimony of a guy who more than one nurse testified said "When is this bitch going to die".
He would not even allow the basic physical therapy to keep her limbs from becoming contorted from lack of motion. Neither he nor the court would allow an MRI or a PET scan. They wouldn't allow a swallowing test, which several nurses stated she could pass and which would have allowed the removal of the feeding tube and her being fed orally.

I see nothing N like in parents who believe their daughter is still 'there' to some degree, trying to save her life.
And I don't see anything wrong with Congress intervening to ask the Federal courts to review whether or not her civil rights were being violated. What is a more basic civil right than life. The bill passed congress with support from both parties. Even Ralph Nader was on her parents side. This should not be, and I don't think it is, a partisan issue.
The civil courts are a horrible mess. If there is no living will, shouldn't the presumption be, as mia put it, for life not death. Shouldn't her life get as much protection as her posessions in court?
I have no problem with a person explicitly stating in writing they do not wish to be kept alive artificially under specific circumstances.
I've got a big problem with a system that essentially leaves a person who cannot speak for herself at the mercy of the 'word' of a person who has a financial and emotional interest in having her dead.
Talk about "Voiclessness"!

If I were a disabled person in this country I would be very afraid.

mudpuppy

[d'smom]

I've got a big problem with a system that essentially leaves a person who cannot speak for herself at the mercy of the 'word' of a person who has a financial and emotional interest in having her dead.....

If I were a disabled person in this country I would be very afraid.

you know - this is exactly how i felt....  i know this is such a touchy subject.. i know also peoples feelings will be shaped by their personal experience. i dont want to step on any toes - but i feel real strongly about this one too.

i dont know what the reality was, dont know what was really going on.... i -do- believe the husband was motivated by financial interest, and im very disappointed that as americans we are so involved with the 'brain' that we forget the heart......??.... just becuase someones brain isnt working as we think it 'should', that just doesnt invalidate the rest of that persons self and life..

my roommate when my child was young had a daughter that was severely developmentally delayed.... really severely.... this childs 'brain' was virtually nonexistent..... but she had a very rich *emotional* and family life....... she continues to live and is in her early twenties now.

knowing this child when she was younger, screaming incomprehsibly, throwing things, difficult to control, impossible to understand, unable to speak, barely able to feed herself, certainly impossible to leave unsupervised, and watching this mother struggle to raise this child, with absolute unfailing devotion, was something that i will never ever ever forget.... they were a family. they really loved each other, they had friends, birthday parties, pets.... it taught me theres so much more to life than 'the brain'.

its difficult to believe but this child FINALLY grew into herself after years of this mothers superhuman patience. she is mellow, and gentle, and kind, even though she still 'thinks' about the level of maybe a third grader, cant read, cant even really speak, and will always need to be cared for by others to some degree. however, she is loved, and can love. her emotional life is intact and flourishes.

id almost rather be around someone who can love and not think, than someone who can think and not love.... :>>
hope this wasnt offensive to anyone. its been on my mind a lot.
d's mom

[d's mom]

ps i also wonder how it would have been if the -husband- had been in the hospital and the -wife- was with another man, trying to end the -husbands- life with potential monetary gain..

i just envision a lot more outcry.... if the tables were turned.... the wife would have been vilified and the husband defended a lot more... it seems to me that woman are seen as slightly more 'dispensable'.. and still the 'property' of the husband, legally...... whenever im facing an ethical question i try to turn the tables.. if it doesnt hold up, there could be a problem.

in this case.. im not sure it would have turned out the same, if the husband were the one in the hospital....