Author Topic: S.O.S.  (Read 16839 times)

bunny as guest

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S.O.S.
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2005, 09:22:22 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
Anyways, Bunny, no he is not a total looser.  He has been a committed provider.  He is just not available emotionally and tends to be critical, judgemental and caustic.


Maybe being a committed provider is his way of showing his love for his family and his wife. The critical, judgmental and caustic junk is because he is terrified. The terror is acceptable but not the behavior. I hope the therapist can help him stop that crap.


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He does not put himself out for others.  I love putting myself out for others - planning parties, encouraging people, helping people grow.  I have to be careful to not give too much.


It looks like he's pretty different from you. He's more selfish but possibly more introverted. I'm more like him. I would hate to plan a party even for someone I loved. I'm assuming he resented being asked to organize a Mother's Day breakfast and passive-aggressively neglected the whole thing. It was probably too much to ask of him. This makes him selfish but I would also look at his basic personality and change my expectations accordingly.


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When things get ugly he accuses me of not making progress - painful stuff.  My emotional/spiritual connections with him are difficult at best.


He's very threatened by the recovery work you've done. When he attacks you, it's really a self-attack on his own inadequacy. I'd ignore it or tell him to just back off. If you were in couples therapy, there might be boundaries about what cannot be said to the other person (i.e., making destructive behaviors taboo).


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Why is he in a life and death struggle.  I don't get it.  Why are my emotions so scary for him?  Can you help me understand.  If I can get some empathy for the man it would really help.


He's in a life-or-death struggle because of his childhood. I don't know what happened but it made him feel humiliated and ashamed. He is terrified of being shamed again and will defend himself against any signs of it happening. His idea of shame may be different from yours. If you know about his childhood (I don't), you will probably know where it comes from. Your emotions are scary to him because he feels everything will go out of control, bad stuff will happen, he will possibly have a heart attack or something, and he feels helpless. My suggestion to a therapist would be to ask your H to call him when he's angry and judgmental and have the therapist contain those feelings rather than his wife. It may not be what your therapist wants to do, but I think it would be a good idea. Just my opinion that he needs a container and you can't be the container all the time.

bunny

chutzbagirl

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« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2005, 11:27:36 AM »
Morning,

I'm really sludging though this one - can't even blame it on PMS.   :roll:   Two opposing thoughts keep running though my mind:

1.  A dandy little Al Anon slogan, "Don't leave before your miracle happens."

2.  Get out and run for your life no miracle is gonna happen.

I am not encouraged by his behavior.  Alright, honest confession, (go easy on me folks it's been a tough few days and I'm feeling pretty banged up), I want him to come home with a gift and a card and express some remorse for his behavior.  I want him to OWN the fact that he really hurt my feelings.  I think I should get a redo of M's day!  :x

M's day means more to me than just my kids telling me they love me - although that is beyond precious in and of itself.  It is a sign post for how far I've come as a M and how much I've detached from my own M.  He has thrown many unkind accusations my way about not making progress and being 'consumed by my M'.  I need him to notice, I need some affirmation.  I want him to see how brave I've been and how hard I've fought; for myself and for my family.  I allowed myself to be 'psychologically dismantled' (my term for intensive, painful therapy) because I knew that unless I got some healing I'd never survive this marriage because of all the buttons he pushes.  I still don't know if I'll survive it.

When I go upstairs to bed and I hear him laughing at the TV I feel so mad inside.  I think, "How can he be laughing when I'm dying from loneliness?"  I want connection with him - it's very surreal to look at him and realize he is not capable.  What's the point?  

I think my T may be full of it.  Maybe he's just falling into his own codependency and expecting me to do too much.  I don't know if I can do what he is asking of me.  Maybe my miracle will come with my H, but it sure doesn't look like it today.  Mud, I need a shoulder.   :cry:

Longtire, please forgive me for assuming I know more about your temperament than you do.   :roll:   You just feel 'warm' to me.  I guess since I live with a very fearful and withdrawn TJ, I just didn't realize TJ's like you existed.  Go figure...  Here's how I can tell you're a TJ, you quote like crazy.  Quoting drives me crazy because it's too detail oriented for me.  I'm a visionary leader - I can think of big projects and work with others to bring them to fruition.  But, stick me with the details and I become a whiney, miserable punk.   (I did quote you for the first time yesterday.  Did you notice?)  

Bunny, your input still gives me a smidgen of hope.  I'm a passionate, intense type of gal.  We seem horribly mismatched to me.   :?   Me trying to keep my emotions at a low simmer feels like I'm half dead.  I hope to God that something is getting ready to pop, blow, change, whatever.  This is not good.  

Take care everybody.  I'm meeting with my sponsor today.  Don't feel like telling her what's going on.  Feels like I'm failing...again.  But, she's a wise 66 year old with the energy of a 35 year old.  She's pretty cute.  We'll see what God does.  I'm not expecting too much.  I've gotta go be 'happy' and do some prep work for the kid's open house tonight.  Yippee....

chutz

bunny

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« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2005, 11:52:30 AM »
Chutzbagirl,

I will write more later. This is a quick thought. Can you call your T and leave a message about how angry and disappointed you are in him and in your husband. They BOTH let you down.  Your T needs to know how lonely and despondent you are.

bunny

Anonymous

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« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2005, 01:10:04 PM »
((((((((Chutzbagirl)))))))))):

You wrote that you want him to buy you a card and appologize.....and way back you wrote:

Quote
His low desire for intimacy I think has more to do with his low grade depression and almost nonexistent desire for emotional intimacy.


So, in your opinion....he does not have much of a desire for emotional intimacey and he is depressed.

 :(

Then, you mention how he's laughing at the tv (and you feel so alone...tryng not to quote you--which by the way...I like to quote because it helps me to keep from making mistakes about what the person said/wrote....which I will make a lot of mistakes, probably, if I rely on this poor, old, beatup memory of mine.. :oops:  :oops: Sorry when I do that).

I think you also said something to the effect that his whole family was unemotional and cold.  And that it would help you to have some empathy for this man....your husband.

Ok.....so picture a little boy growing up in a family that does not express, value, show, consider, share, understand, etc...emotions.  A very intellectual place....when no one speaks about what they feel....only about what they think.  There aren't any hugs or kisses.  There are no soothing words, when he is hurt.  There is no one saying caring things....I love you...you're special....I value this or that about you...to him.  No one expressing joy or sadness, anger or fear, admiration, sympathy, or love.  What does a little boy learn under such conditions??

Behaviour-wise.....he learns to be intellectual, speak about thoughts, which might make him appear to have no desire for intimacy.  Emtoionally....he learns to keep silent, contain, be tough.  But if you think about it....do you think it might be possible that he simply feels weird...when strong feelings come out/when people express feelings/when he feels stuff but doesn't know how to express it (because he hasn't learned)???  And weirder still when he sees others expressing emotions?  I mean.....how would he know how to do this?  How would it feel right?  How would it seem normal?  At the least.....it seems to me it might feel really confusing and foreign to him, even now, as an adult.

Maybe....there is a possibility......that he does want intimacy.....but doesn't have a clue about how to do it?  Maybe....he just doesn't do intimacy because he hasn't leaned how??  I'm guessing.....big time....and trying to imagine what he may be feeling inside.

And fear!!!  To admit it?  To show such weakness.....when you yourself view him as a rock!  He himself....maybe thinks of himself as being a rock...not needing deep emotional connections...because he's survived this far without them.  Not that he doesn't want them but doesn't have a clue how to be intimate and thinks it isn't necessary anyway??  He doesn't know the value/depth of connection/true benefits of sharing emotions.
Maybe he has no understanding about them?

Buy you want a card and an appology.  I understand why you want these and how much this would mean to you and how it would show you something intimate from him.

But it's like wanting lotion from a soap dispenser.  There isn't any lotion there right now...because it wasn't taught and doesn't seem important to him.  Or maybe it does seem important but he's terrified to admit it.  So he's depressed.  He feels very sad and low and hopeless.  Maybe worthless.  Useless, as far as intimacy goes.  Damaged, when he's supposed to be a big, strong rock.....expected to come along and be there for you...when he can't guess how to do that or why it's up to him?  He was taught to just get over it.  Not to express it, share it, talk about it, or even that it is ok to feel it.  His way of feeling better is to watch something that makes him laugh...on tv.  It's a good thing too...sometimes.  But as you clearly know...it's not much help to him in the intimacy department.

So....your T telling you to forgive him......(which I might suggest....get a pillow and pound the heck out of it...get your anger out...cry...do whatever to release the feelings....and then think about the stuff above here)....and to move toward him.....may be his (T's) way of telling you that your husband simply does not know how to move toward you.

This is a decision only you can make.  Whether or not you want to go to him and try to express feelings and expect....nothing.....for awhile, in return.  Your example may help.  Especially if you express empathy.  If you explain how you care and want to share with him....and are willing to do whatever it takes to help him learn to do that....maybe you will strike a nerve?  Maybe he will begin to become vunerable and take the risk of opening up a little.

Because right now....my bet is....he is trying his best to stay safe/in his non-vunerable shell of non-emotion/where it doesn't feel weird/ where he can be a rock/ or......

he might be escaping there because he is so afraid of not being capable of learning intimacy, of learning the benefits, of feeling connected to you and more so....of looking like an idiot/worthless/piece of soap....to you.

Hope this helps a little Chutz.  It's so hard to give when what we really want is to be given something....love, understanding, soothing words, hugs and kisses.  Sending those over this cyber space...just to you...from me.  I know it's not much...but I mean well.  

GFN

Brigid

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« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2005, 01:47:00 PM »
Chutzba,

I'm a little hesitant to even post this for fear that you think I am passing judgment or making assumptions.  I am not.  I just wanted to say that I see some similarities between your H and mine and perhaps to be aware or mindful of a couple of things.  I'm not sure how much of my story you may have read elsewhere, but in a nutshell, we had very little physical intimacy and virtually no emotional intimacy for a good portion of the marriage.  Ultimately, I found out that he was using pornography and masturbation as his means of satisfaction until he allowed himself to totally cross over to the dark side and find a married girlfriend with whom to have an affair.  

He has been diagnosed with dysthymia and ADD over the years and has taken Wellbrutrin to supposedly deal with that.  You would never imagine him to be a person with depression as he is always the life of the party.  Yes, he had a very unemotional childhood with a very N alcoholic, but highly successful father and enabling mother.  

We went to therapy together for 6 weeks.  I found out about all of the above behaviors, but was still willing to work to save the marriage.  Ultimately, he was not.  He wanted out, he wanted his girlfriend and he didn't care about the 22 years of marriage or how it would affect his children.  My T, who was our T, explained to me that he is an N.  I probably would never had seen that or looked for that kind of explanation to what had happened.

I guess that was a little more than a nutshell, but its hard to get to all of it in one paragraph.   :oops:   We can take a horse to water but we can't make him drink.  I pray that your H is willing to drink and look into himself to find the damaged parts that create the hard shell.  But you can't make him.  You can only control what you do, and how you feel, and how you treat the others in your life.

(((((((chutzba)))))))))))

Blessings,
Brigid

Anonymous

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« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2005, 01:53:43 PM »
Chutz,

Quote
Mud, I need a shoulder.  


I don't know if there's a symbol for a shoulder but you can have both of mine.  :cry:  :cry:
So sorry he's so damaged and doesn't realize the pearl he was given to take care of.
Still hoping and praying for you.

mudpup

bunny

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Re: sos
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2005, 02:01:28 PM »
Chutzbagirl,

This doesn't require a miracle. It requires motivation, hard work, a good therapist, and time to improve situations like this. Miracles aren't how it happens...


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I want him to come home with a gift and a card and express some remorse for his behavior.  I want him to OWN the fact that he really hurt my feelings.  I think I should get a redo of M's day!


If you were in couples therapy, you could state this wish in the session and the therapist would help your husband give it to you -- or would support your disappointment. Without couples therapy I don't see a way to negotiate this. It shames your husband too much and he can't tolerate it.


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M's day means more to me than just my kids telling me they love me - although that is beyond precious in and of itself.  It is a sign post for how far I've come as a M and how much I've detached from my own M.  He has thrown many unkind accusations my way about not making progress and being 'consumed by my M'.  I need him to notice, I need some affirmation.  I want him to see how brave I've been and how hard I've fought; for myself and for my family.  I allowed myself to be 'psychologically dismantled' (my term for intensive, painful therapy) because I knew that unless I got some healing I'd never survive this marriage because of all the buttons he pushes.  I still don't know if I'll survive it.


Not everyone can go through painful therapy. It takes a special kind of ego strength to do that. It's realistic (sorry to say) not to expect others to do intensive therapy, and also not to be thanked for doing it. Therapy is a deeply personal thing, probably shouldn't even be discussed between spouses (we don't -- it's off limits). Your T (if he is any good) will help you accept your husband as he is. We all want to be accepted as we are now.

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When I go upstairs to bed and I hear him laughing at the TV I feel so mad inside.  I think, "How can he be laughing when I'm dying from loneliness?"  I want connection with him - it's very surreal to look at him and realize he is not capable.  What's the point?


Actually you have no idea how he feels inside. He could be suffering, he could be compartmentalizing to survive emotionally, he could be deeply sad, he could be protecting himself, he could be anything. You don't know. Couples therapy is the way to find out.
 
I hope it goes well with your sponsor. It sucks that you have to pretend to be happy for open house but maybe you can REALLY be happy. Don't let your husband spoil anything for you. You are allowed to have some happiness even right now.

bunny

bunny

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« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2005, 02:03:06 PM »
P.S. I am pretty disappointed in your therapist for not helping you and frankly making it worse.

chutz

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sos
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2005, 07:44:09 PM »
Hi,

Well, the day has gone better than expected.  My sponsor was wonderful.  She understood me and encouraged me to get in touch with what God wants me to do. To listen to my heart - not my head.   At this point, I believe God is asking me to love my husband unconditionally.  (I need to clarify that this type of love requires truth and justice not codependent love = love with no boundaries.)  This feels like a hard task - but I will take it one day at a time...literally.  

I know his critical alcoholic F did a number on him.  His co, emotionally unavailable M was no help.  It's just so hard to have empathy when the guy is attacking me.  My knee jerk reaction is to go into little girl mode and want him to disappear...forever.  I remember having a dream when I was about 4 that trash can monsters were trampling my parents to death and I was happy about it.  I still remember waking up and feeling guilty about my reaction in the dream.    

Yes, I do think my T minimized the situation.  I left him a message and let him know.  We'll see what happens in that department.  In general, I think he's pretty good.  He's helped me immensely these past few years.  It's time that I become more adult with him.  I may have played a part by minimizing H's behavior myself.  I minimize quite a bit - helped me survive for many years.  

Longtire - I love that you quote and that you are so thoughtful with your replies.   :)   My opinion is that it takes several people to make a whole brain.  Your input has been very helpful.  Thank you so much - you're a bud.  Please don't take my lack of quoting for a lack of care - it's just how I process.  

GFN, thanks for reminder of my H's woundedness.  He really isn't all bad.  I needed affirmation on Sunday.  I need more connectedness on a regular basis.  I need to be free of his criticisms and judgements.  I don't know how this marriage is going to turn out.  I'm hoping for the best - but I'm just not sure.  I don't think he has pornography issues.  I check the history every now and then.   :wink:   I really think it's the depression and defense mechanisms that are not working anymore.  I hope he can muster enough courage to trust the love that is there for him and let people in.

So, off to open house tonight.  It was good to get out with people and do projects.  I'm an art docent in both of our children's classes - so it was time to set up the displays.   :)

Take care cyber friends.  Thanks a bunch - I'll check in later.  Your wisdom and support are priceless.  

chutz

Anonymous

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« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2005, 10:23:38 PM »
Rhetorical question - when your husband first got angry because your daughter was crying, what was your response? Did you stand up for yourself? Try to placate him? Apologize? Just wondering how you respond to these things. In the old days I would have catered, placated, apologized, taken full responsibility and later blown up at him over some other trivial thing. Now I would probably ignore him or say, "Na, I don't think so." Partially it's the meds. They take the edge off things that used to make me lose it.

bunny

chutz

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« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2005, 01:12:53 AM »
Hi,

Bunny, in response to your rhetorical question - I used humor and let him know it was M's day and I wanted him to deal with it.  My daughter is very strong-willed, when she was crying it really was about her not getting her way.  One of the problems I face in the marriage is my H plugs into that juvenile response and blaims me for it rather than calling our daughter on her attitude.  It really is in her best interest to help teach her to be more flexible.  

He blew up when I went downstairs and asked why the muffins had not been made.  I thought my daughter was going to bake them.  I had suggested that as a way to try and repair her plans.  (She usually jumps at the idea of baking muffins.  But, apparently, since baking the muffins was not her idea, she was unwilling to grant my request.)  He immediately took that question as a criticism that he did not do enough and I was never satisfied.  He raised his voice and threatened to take himself out for M's day breakfast from now on.  (He also ranted and raved that M's day should not have to be like planning a wedding, etc...) At that point I nose dived and the day was never recovered.  He remembers my tone being much more scarcastic and accusing than it was.  

One thing I can rest in now is that, for the most part, my assesments are sane.  Working through what was sane and what was insane during my childhood has helped me to grasp sanity or insanity when I see it.  Sure, I've got my blindspots - but they are much smaller than they used to be.  One big blind spot is not realizing that I can not handle too much negativity.  I stay in the conversation too long thinking I can handle it when I can't.  I have a weakness with my tongue - can cut some sharp comments back at times.  However, even though I still slip, I've gotten much better.  (I don't call myself chutzbagirl for nothing.  :wink: )  Actually, I call myself chutzbagirl because I know I am brave, strong, loving, and faithful.  I am committed to truth at all costs.  

Interesting side note - H has informed me that he's been reading this post.  In the past that would have horrified me.  I would have felt uncontainable guilt at the thought of something I wrote or did causing him pain.  I don't feel very guilty - maybe a twinge - because I've been honest.  I believe the truth sets us free.  Hopefully by him reading my truth, without having to filter out the emotional tone in my voice, he will know how much pain I'm in.  He gets to choose his response.  I have zero control over his response.  For those of you who work the steps, I'm at step two big time.  (Actually steps two and three go together.)  He left as soon as I got home and has not come back.  It's been about 1 1/2 hours.  He's thinking...I place him in God's hands and pray for God's will.

Also, just to be clear about what I've said regarding quoting, I have no problem with anybody else quoting.  If you prefer quoting, quote away to your heart's delight.  I don't like quoting and I've been feeling guilty - like I'm too lazy to quote you back.  I just hate quoting.  So please forgive me.  I'm good at getting emotional content and hopefully you feel my responses have been somewhat helpful at times.  Please don't feel like you need to refrain from your preferred style of communication - just know your dealing with a 'big picture' gal.   :wink:

I wish you the best.  If you're the praying type, pray for me and my H.  I think the next couple of days will be very telling.

chutz

chutz

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sos
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2005, 01:48:49 AM »
GFN,

I was rereading this thread and realized how much your input meant to me.  Thank you.  Thank you for helping me to look at him a little differently.  We really do push each other's buttons - very painful match.  Hopefully, we can help each other heal...

chutz

He's been gone almost 2 1/2 hours now after reading this post.  I hope and pray he is o.k.

chutz

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sos
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2005, 02:34:42 AM »
Alright, this is what just happened...He came home and we spoke for a few minutes.  He said he went to the gym and went for a drive.  I asked him what he thought about.  He said he was wondering why he should stay with me since it seems like I want to leave him.  He said why wait another ten years if he could spend those years with someone else.  He said I'd probably wait to leave him until he paid for the kids to go to college.   :cry:   He maligned my heart.

His words were so painful for me I think I'm in shock.  Where are the thoughts of loving me unconditionally?  Where are the thoughts of trying to make it better?  Where are the thoughts of feeling bad for acting mean?  Where are the thoughts of trying to help me heal?  His words are so hurtful, cutting.  

He treats me as if I don't care about how hard he works for our income.  That is completely untrue.  I am conscious of every dollar I spend.  We both agreed to me staying home when we had our first born.  At the time I was making as much as him working as a legislative assistant at the CA State Capitol.  I/we  felt strongly about  me being home with our children.  Now that our youngest is in 1st grade I've been working part time in children's ministries at our church.  Seems like a good fit - but it's not good enough for him.  He seems to think I stay with him for the financial ease.  Believe me, I'm paying for it.

Bunny, this marriage does need a miracle.  See, I'm willing to do the hard work, but it seems like it would take a miracle for my H to be willing.   :(

Oh well, it's not up to me.  I'm willing - you all know that.  I stated it earlier.  You are my witnesses.

chutz   :(

mudpuppy

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« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2005, 09:53:11 AM »
Chutz,

These are the impressions I am get from his response to you.
Either,
1. He has wanted out of the marriage for some time and he is now manuevering you into being the one to actually want it or,
2. He's so emotionally constipated that he can't respond the way he really wants to, and just gets defensive when he feels threatened. And apparently any discussion of his behavior is threatening.

He is clearly reading into your comments things that you did not say and completely overlooking your concern about his behavior and its effect on you. :cry:

Sorry, Chutz.

mudpup

bunny as guest

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« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2005, 10:03:20 AM »
Chutzbagirl and her husband,

I don't have much time but here's a short SOS for both of you. I'm going to talk as though I'm a marriage counselor, which I'm not! We've had fights as bad as this, I don't want to say how many times. But it can be helped...


Husband: Your wife was just venting, and is not really planning to leave the marriage. She is just hurt. If you understand her at all, you know how important Mother's Day is to her. This can all be solved, and it's not even that much about you.

Chutzbagirl: Your husband is reasonably hurt because you talked about him and divorce to a bunch of strangers. He is probably shamed very, very badly right now. [One side q: did you tell him you had posted about this?] my advice, based on experience, would be to apologize and not post about him here, if he asks you not to. This is a boundary issue if you know what I mean.

Both of you: Can you get an appointment with your therapist together to talk about mother's day?

my 2c
bunny