Hi Mud thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. I’m gonna talk as seriously and clearly as I can. No jokes or anything else. Three pages in Word. You might want to get a coffee!
I'm not sure how to approach this. I think you may ascribe more baggage to sarcasm than I do. To me it is merely being a smart ass. It can be perfectly innocent or perfectly vindictive.
I used to be slightly sarcastic, long time ago, pre-board I think. But I talked about this with H last night because I really wanted another opinion. I asked him if he thought I was sarcastic or used sarcasm. He said I’m not a sarcastic person and that I don’t use sarcasm to hurt or wound others intentionally. I agreed with him when he said I do use sarcasm in relation to world events, politicians, the obvious non-ethical stuff that goes on and gets debated as though it’s some trivial thing. Like I’d say maybe “oh that ambassador, she/he really gets the point don’t they?” – meaning in fact the opposite, they don’t get the point at all imo. But that person is remote and in the media. They don’t get hurt by me saying that to H. But I don’t use it in personal interactions unless (and I added this, not him) unless I am really angry and losing it. And I haven’t done that for ages. Not sure how long but a long time.
And you have on occasion been a smart ass, as have I, as has everyone I've ever met.
I accept your perception of me there. I want to ask though: when have I been a ‘smart ass’ – meaning using sarcasm here? I really want to know Mud. Because just maybe, possibly, perhaps I haven’t been sarcastic but you perceived that I was being? Like on Jacmac’s thread about marriage. I said sorry and I was making a blanket statement. I meant that sincerely and seriously. Both the apology and the statement that I would reconsider my ideas. I liked you picking that up and said thank you. That was completely serious. When I said *groan* on that reply, it meant *groan, Portia’s going to write another three pages in Word, do we really want that, the mouthy old bat?*. That was being self-deprecating but I wonder what you thought it meant?
I think there's a big difference between sarcasm and genuine humour. I crack jokes but not to hurt.
My problem now is that I don’t know if you think I was being sarcastic. Do you see what I mean? I don’t know what you think of me and that is what hurts. I am honest and value that. I feel like my integrity – which I value above all else in life! – is being misunderstood, misinterpreted. When I wrote to you ages ago about your Cheerios dream – I spent a long time writing that and thinking about it and my reply to you was totally serious. But I thought (my perception) that you laughed my interpretation off. Maybe it made you uncomfortable? I don’t know. But I wonder now if you’ve taken a lot of what I’ve said as a kind of barb, a joke, a dig at you? I hate misunderstandings like this. This is why I was genuinely hurt yesterday. It hurts to be misunderstood with someone you think knows you, even if just a little. And thinking about us here, when we went for a religious debate and you put up Pascal’s wager for me, and I responded to it? That wasn’t me being sarcastic. That was me, as a genuine ‘suspended belief’ person, to attempt to understand what your faith means to you. To get to the stuff behind it. And I didn’t buy the wager. My response was entirely serious, based on my thinking, based on my view of life. Was that point-scoring? Sarcastic? Discussion for the sake of ‘winning’ or something? I must admit sometimes people in real life don’t take me seriously because I do have deeply-held convictions – about truth, freedom, the importance of child protection etc – and they think I’m being passionate to get a rise maybe, to get a response? I don’t know. Sometimes I say things and people laugh at my words. Maybe I’m too straightforward and it makes them uncomfortable. They might feel threatened by honesty? I think that’s what happens with me. I can live with it.
Sarcasm is not necessarily destructive. It can often be very helpful. It can let us know when we are acting like a horses ass. If you were being sarcastic I assumed it was to let me know I was not making a valid point or had holes in my argument. I consider it a pretty useful rhetorical device that can easily be misapplied.
If you want to you can look up verbally abusive stuff on the web. Sarcasm is usually a defence/attack technique. If I am acting like a horses ass, I prefer it if people say “You’re acting like a horses ass, stop it”. Then I know exactly what I’m doing and can change my behaviour. If they’re sarcastic, their meaning is cloaked, hidden. Imagine being sarcastic with a 3 year old child. Imagine the confusion we might cause the child. The same is true for adults I think. Fear and confusion.
It was not the suspected sarcasm per se that was the problem but rather the subject of what I thought you might be referring to, ie; equating my post with the jihadist's reaction to those cartoons.
But rather than post your reply as you did, why didn’t you just ask me straight? I would have been shocked and said “Blimey no Mud! I wouldn’t do that.” But the way you replied I felt attacked and misunderstood.
If it was sarcastic I assumed it to be simply a joke that I didn't like, not some complex foul deed.
If I had been doing that, I would consider it underhand and sneaky and downright rude. Disrespectful to you. Nasty stuff. Not funny.
I now see that it wasn't sarcastic at all. But if you'll reread what I said, I never said it was; I asked you to explain whether it was.
Mud, my perception is that you went into defence mode because you really thought the probability was that I was being underhand. And that made me sad for both of us.
You have and I accept your explanation. I do not intend to invalidate your feelings. But I do not understand how asking you if you were making a sarcastic joke that fell flat is bashing you. I'm torn between apologizing for thinkiing you might have been sarcastic and not. If I do it will not be a genuine apology.
I understand.
Frankly I believe every person is capable of being sarcastic, so if I apologize for thinking you might have been then I will have to issue a blanket apology to the entire planet.
Nope I don’t agree. I’m telling you I was hurt because I’m not like that and I thought you knew I wasn’t like that. Okay, I can agree that we’re all capable, especially when attacked or in anger. But I thought we understood each other a little. I think now maybe I’ve been wrong all along. That hurts of course – to think I’ve completely misinterpreted you. I feel stupid. I feel like I’ve made the same mistakes about you that I have about many other people. I thought you were kind and big-hearted and didn’t automatically think the worst of people. Now I’m not so sure? This to me is not saying ‘you are a bad person’ to you: this is about ‘can I trust perceptions of people? Can I trust my own judgment?’ – and that is a huge issue for many of us here. Can I trust myself and what I think about another person?
Is there a person alive who hasn't said 'smooth move' or 'what was your first clue, Sherlock' or 'yeah, right'? And I don't think saying those things makes anyone not honest or straightforward. It makes them the occasional smart ass which incidentally is the same as a wise guy.
I don’t say these sorts of things and I instinctively don’t like them. These phrases put the other person down. I really don’t like them and would only use them in scorn, anger or to someone I really didn’t like. Someone I didn’t want to know. Someone nasty. I tend these days to stay away from people like that so I don’t use those words. I also feel bad when I use them and I’d prefer not to feel bad. I’m typing as I read your words Mud and I’ve probably contradicted myself somewhere – about saying I don’t use sarcasm? I don’t know. Does it matter? Are you getting the main point about what I’m trying to say?
I will and do apologize if I inadveretantly caused you distress. I did not mean to. I was merely seeking to understand your position. But inadvertant pain is still pain. So you have my apologies for any pain anything I said may have caused you.
Thank you Mud. I hear you saying you’re sorry IF you caused me pain. I understand and that’s okay. Maybe what I’ve said above – and it seems to me, the more I write as I think, naturally, not edited and not censored – will cause you to see my position more clearly - how it was a genuine shock to think that you see me in that way?
But it’s okay, I think you are apologising. Thank you Mud. It means a lot.
You know, apology is really interesting. I go back to the Peace and Reconciliation process in South Africa.
For an apology to happen, both parties have to agree on the thing that warrants an apology. The person who did the thing needs to see exactly what they did and what the effect was on the other person. I guess it’s about empathy again maybe?
For me to say sorry to you, I really have to understand how I have hurt you and see it from your point of view. Then when I say sorry, you will know that I do understand what I did wrong and you will feel a change has happened, that I really see the problem. And you will feel relieved and understood. If I prove that I understand your hurt and regret it, you will feel better. It’s the mutual understanding that makes it work I think.
We’ve talked lots about apology here in the past, mainly because many people (our parents, siblings, partners) cannot seem to do it. They say ‘sorry I hurt you BUT it wasn’t my fault’ or ‘sorry you’re so sensitive’ and so on, neither of which are anything approaching a real apology. Interesting stuff, always. Anyway, about the Peace and Reconciliation process in South Africa. I remember – was it Desmond Tutu? Can’t remember. Possibly him chairing the thing and Winnie Mandela answering to her crimes. And he broke down in tears because she would not acknowledge her crimes or apologise for them. He virtually pleaded with her to apologise and she bowed her head and said ‘I’m sorry’ or something – but she wasn’t sorry and it hurt to watch that. To watch a woman so deeply without any conscience, without any remorse, without any notion of ethics or morality. It hurt to see someone so damaged, so narcissistic, so half-alive, so uncomprehending. That image stays with me, maybe I was relating it to someone I know eh? Quite possibly. I.e. my mother to avoid doubt.
Thanks Mud and I hope I truly hope that you’ll understand what I’m saying. I think you are a good big-hearted man and sometimes you feel attacked when there isn’t a fight going on. Maybe? What do you think? I like you. ((((Mud))))
