Author Topic: Are We Okay?  (Read 10782 times)

mudpuppy

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2006, 09:09:07 PM »
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Do you see sarcasm and a smart ass as the same?

Yeah, pretty much. Sarcasm to me can range from harmless irony with a humorous intent through a casual warning to vicious rotten venom.
If somebody almost tips over backwards in a chair and I say 'smooth move ace' that's pretty harmless sarcasm.
If my daughter goes running through the kitchen and I ask her where the fire is that's a gentle warning to cool it.
If someone's child fails a test and is devastated and their parent tells them 'good job genius' that is hurtful, ugly and meant to harm.

Maybe some people don't consider the milder examples sarcasm. Maybe they're right. The root of the word I think means to rip the flesh, so originally it related to severe, ironic remarks. But it seems to have expanded its meaning somewhat, at least to me it has.

mud




Marta

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2006, 11:59:02 PM »
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H&H:
With message boards I'm a firm believer in take what you need, give what you can and leave the rest

H&H, golden words, couldn't agree with you more! It is silly to pretend that we are a family, whatever, which is what I hear often on the board. We are not a family, but we are a community, and a very fine one at that. Some of us connect, others don't. Its one thing to make repeated efforts at connecting with my mother, and I doubt wisdom of even that, and quite another to keep trying to connect someone with whom I feel no connection on this board, as I see is often urged. Or sometimes when an argument is resulting in no real exchange of ideas or support and I have nothing further to say, I like to disengage. Sometimes it may feel like invalidation to the other party, but it is not meant to be that, it is really just self-preservation and best possible use of my time/attention.
Live and let live.

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Mud:
It is highly unlikely that someone's political or religious values would be disrespected here should UBL or Stalin or Hitler be used as an example of an N, because thankfully there are few if any jihadists, Stalinists or Nazis here. But in more mainstream figures, one person's incontrovertible evidence of evil and Nisn may very well be admirable traits to someone else.

Nice, Mud. Very nicely articulated. I see what you are getting at. Now you have my full cooperation to your proposition in this respect of not demonizing public figures, because this is not a political board. 

While we are discussing this matter of what is said on the board, there is one more thing I've been wanting to say for a long time. It is about how we communicate with people who come up here who are suicidal, as it so happens every now and then. I often hear them told that come here, post often, it is a great community, etc. etc. What usually happens is that very soon after that, they hear something that triggers them and makes them feel attacked, discounted, you name it, by some very innocuous remarks. And they leave, with one more bruise on their heart. Ours is a support board, not a suicide intervention hot line or a therapy board, hence we lack the skills that are so necessary in saying the right things that will help them. I see our job with to present ourselves with as much kindness and support as we can, without trying to adminster therapy or see how they are projecting etc. Encourage them to find a therapist or support as soon as possible. Whatever our personal ambivalence about therapy may be, a therapist is absolutely necessary for those who are in danger of suicide. My two cents.

Marta
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 05:28:50 AM by Marta »

Portia

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2006, 05:31:57 AM »
Marta

While we are discussing this matter of what is said on the board, there is one more thing I've been wanting to say for a long time. It is about how we communicate with people who come up here who are suicidal, as it so happens every now and then. I often hear them told that come here, post often, it is a great community, etc. etc. What usually happens is that very soon after that, they hear something that triggers them and makes them feel attacked, discounted, you name it, by some very innocuous remarks. And they leave, with one more bruise on their heart.

How do you know all this for a fact?

Ours is a support board, not a suicide intervention hot line or a therapy board.

Are you deciding what ‘our’ board is Marta? I believe the board belongs to Dr Grossman. Yes we make it what it is, but it is not ‘ours’. And it is not within your power to decide what goes on here. If you want to change it or make rules about what happens here, I suggest you contact Dr Grossman. 

I see our job with suicidal folks to present ourselves with as much kindness and support as we can, without trying to adminster therapy, BUT also encourage them to find a therapist or support as soon as possible. My two cents.

Fine. I shall do differently and I would encourage everyone here to do as they wish on this board. If we cross a line, I count on Dr Grossman to tell us. It’s his board.

herewegoagain

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2006, 05:55:39 AM »
a nice cut and past job, Portia.

And very sympathetic. Of course why should your posts be sympathetic right? You can say what you want, can't you?

Fine. I shall do differently and I would encourage everyone here to do as they wish on this board

Can you see my point?

You're also giving what seems to be a caring post about things that do happen on the board from time to time an 'edge' when that is not necesary at all. Simila to a few other threads at the moment.

Portia

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2006, 05:57:43 AM »
Hi Mud thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. I’m gonna talk as seriously and clearly as I can. No jokes or anything else. Three pages in Word. You might want to get a coffee!

I'm not sure how to approach this. I think you may ascribe more baggage to sarcasm than I do. To me it is merely being a smart ass. It can be perfectly innocent or perfectly vindictive.

I used to be slightly sarcastic, long time ago, pre-board I think. But I talked about this with H last night because I really wanted another opinion. I asked him if he thought I was sarcastic or used sarcasm. He said I’m not a sarcastic person and that I don’t use sarcasm to hurt or wound others intentionally. I agreed with him when he said I do use sarcasm in relation to world events, politicians, the obvious non-ethical stuff that goes on and gets debated as though it’s some trivial thing. Like I’d say maybe “oh that ambassador, she/he really gets the point don’t they?” – meaning in fact the opposite, they don’t get the point at all imo. But that person is remote and in the media. They don’t get hurt by me saying that to H. But I don’t use it in personal interactions unless (and I added this, not him) unless I am really angry and losing it. And I haven’t done that for ages. Not sure how long but a long time.

And you have on occasion been a smart ass, as have I, as has everyone I've ever met.

I accept your perception of me there. I want to ask though: when have I been a ‘smart ass’ – meaning using sarcasm here? I really want to know Mud. Because just maybe, possibly, perhaps I haven’t been sarcastic but you perceived that I was being? Like on Jacmac’s thread about marriage. I said sorry and I was making a blanket statement. I meant that sincerely and seriously. Both the apology and the statement that I would reconsider my ideas. I liked you picking that up and said thank you. That was completely serious. When I said *groan* on that reply, it meant *groan, Portia’s going to write another three pages in Word, do we really want that, the mouthy old bat?*. That was being self-deprecating but I wonder what you thought it meant?

I think there's a big difference between sarcasm and genuine humour. I crack jokes but not to hurt.

My problem now is that I don’t know if you think I was being sarcastic. Do you see what I mean? I don’t know what you think of me and that is what hurts. I am honest and value that. I feel like my integrity – which I value above all else in life! – is being misunderstood, misinterpreted. When I wrote to you ages ago about your Cheerios dream – I spent a long time writing that and thinking about it and my reply to you was totally serious. But I thought (my perception) that you laughed my interpretation off. Maybe it made you uncomfortable? I don’t know. But I wonder now if you’ve taken a lot of what I’ve said as a kind of barb, a joke, a dig at you? I hate misunderstandings like this. This is why I was genuinely hurt yesterday. It hurts to be misunderstood with someone you think knows you, even if just a little. And thinking about us here, when we went for a religious debate and you put up Pascal’s wager for me, and I responded to it? That wasn’t me being sarcastic. That was me, as a genuine ‘suspended belief’ person, to attempt to understand what your faith means to you. To get to the stuff behind it. And I didn’t buy the wager. My response was entirely serious, based on my thinking, based on my view of life. Was that point-scoring? Sarcastic? Discussion for the sake of ‘winning’ or something? I must admit sometimes people in real life don’t take me seriously because I do have deeply-held convictions – about truth, freedom, the importance of child protection etc – and they think I’m being passionate to get a rise maybe, to get a response? I don’t know. Sometimes I say things and people laugh at my words. Maybe I’m too straightforward and it makes them uncomfortable. They might feel threatened by honesty? I think that’s what happens with me. I can live with it.  

Sarcasm is not necessarily destructive. It can often be very helpful. It can let us know when we are acting like a horses ass. If you were being sarcastic I assumed it was to let me know I was not making a valid point or had holes in my argument. I consider it a pretty useful rhetorical device that can easily be misapplied.

If you want to you can look up verbally abusive stuff on the web. Sarcasm is usually a defence/attack technique. If I am acting like a horses ass, I prefer it if people say “You’re acting like a horses ass, stop it”. Then I know exactly what I’m doing and can change my behaviour. If they’re sarcastic, their meaning is cloaked, hidden. Imagine being sarcastic with a 3 year old child. Imagine the confusion we might cause the child. The same is true for adults I think. Fear and confusion.

It was not the suspected sarcasm per se that was the problem but rather the subject of what I thought you might be referring to, ie; equating my post with the jihadist's reaction to those cartoons.

But rather than post your reply as you did, why didn’t you just ask me straight? I would have been shocked and said “Blimey no Mud! I wouldn’t do that.” But the way you replied I felt attacked and misunderstood.

If it was sarcastic I assumed it to be simply a joke that I didn't like, not some complex foul deed.

If I had been doing that, I would consider it underhand and sneaky and downright rude. Disrespectful to you. Nasty stuff. Not funny.

I now see that it wasn't sarcastic at all. But if you'll reread what I said, I never said it was; I asked you to explain whether it was.

Mud, my perception is that you went into defence mode because you really thought the probability was that I was being underhand. And that made me sad for both of us.

You have and I accept your explanation. I do not intend to invalidate your feelings. But I do not understand how asking you if you were making a sarcastic joke that fell flat is bashing you. I'm torn between apologizing for thinkiing you might have been sarcastic and not. If I do it will not be a genuine apology.

I understand.

Frankly I believe every person is capable of being sarcastic, so if I apologize for thinking you might have been then I will have to issue a blanket apology to the entire planet.

Nope I don’t agree. I’m telling you I was hurt because I’m not like that and I thought you knew I wasn’t like that. Okay, I can agree that we’re all capable, especially when attacked or in anger. But I thought we understood each other a little. I think now maybe I’ve been wrong all along. That hurts of course – to think I’ve completely misinterpreted you. I feel stupid. I feel like I’ve made the same mistakes about you that I have about many other people. I thought you were kind and big-hearted and didn’t automatically think the worst of people. Now I’m not so sure? This to me is not saying ‘you are a bad person’ to you: this is about ‘can I trust perceptions of people? Can I trust my own judgment?’ – and that is a huge issue for many of us here. Can I trust myself and what I think about another person?

Is there a person alive who hasn't said 'smooth move' or 'what was your first clue, Sherlock' or 'yeah, right'? And I don't think saying those things makes anyone not honest or straightforward. It makes them the occasional smart ass which incidentally is the same as a wise guy.

I don’t say these sorts of things and I instinctively don’t like them. These phrases put the other person down. I really don’t like them and would only use them in scorn, anger or to someone I really didn’t like. Someone I didn’t want to know. Someone nasty. I tend these days to stay away from people like that so I don’t use those words. I also feel bad when I use them and I’d prefer not to feel bad. I’m typing as I read your words Mud and I’ve probably contradicted myself somewhere – about saying I don’t use sarcasm? I don’t know. Does it matter? Are you getting the main point about what I’m trying to say?

I will and do apologize if I inadveretantly caused you distress. I did not mean to. I was merely seeking to understand your position. But inadvertant pain is still pain. So you have my apologies for any pain anything I said may have caused you.

Thank you Mud. I hear you saying you’re sorry IF you caused me pain. I understand and that’s okay. Maybe what I’ve said above – and it seems to me, the more I write as I think, naturally, not edited and not censored – will cause you to see my position more clearly - how it was a genuine shock to think that you see me in that way?

But it’s okay, I think you are apologising. Thank you Mud. It means a lot.

You know, apology is really interesting. I go back to the Peace and Reconciliation process in South Africa.

For an apology to happen, both parties have to agree on the thing that warrants an apology. The person who did the thing needs to see exactly what they did and what the effect was on the other person. I guess it’s about empathy again maybe?

For me to say sorry to you, I really have to understand how I have hurt you and see it from your point of view. Then when I say sorry, you will know that I do understand what I did wrong and you will feel a change has happened, that I really see the problem. And you will feel relieved and understood. If I prove that I understand your hurt and regret it, you will feel better. It’s the mutual understanding that makes it work I think.

We’ve talked lots about apology here in the past, mainly because many people (our parents, siblings, partners) cannot seem to do it. They say ‘sorry I hurt you BUT it wasn’t my fault’ or ‘sorry you’re so sensitive’ and so on, neither of which are anything approaching a real apology. Interesting stuff, always. Anyway, about the Peace and Reconciliation process in South Africa. I remember – was it Desmond Tutu? Can’t remember. Possibly him chairing the thing and Winnie Mandela answering to her crimes. And he broke down in tears because she would not acknowledge her crimes or apologise for them. He virtually pleaded with her to apologise and she bowed her head and said ‘I’m sorry’ or something – but she wasn’t sorry and it hurt to watch that. To watch a woman so deeply without any conscience, without any remorse, without any notion of ethics or morality. It hurt to see someone so damaged, so narcissistic, so half-alive, so uncomprehending. That image stays with me, maybe I was relating it to someone I know eh? Quite possibly. I.e. my mother to avoid doubt.  

Thanks Mud and I hope I truly hope that you’ll understand what I’m saying. I think you are a good big-hearted man and sometimes you feel attacked when there isn’t a fight going on. Maybe? What do you think? I like you. ((((Mud))))

Portia

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2006, 06:08:44 AM »
Herewegoagain

a nice cut and past job, Portia.

Thanks! Thanks? It's not a compliment is it? Is that sarcasm?! What do you mean exactly?

And very sympathetic. Of course why should your posts be sympathetic right? You can say what you want, can't you?

Umm. I didn’t intend to be overtly sympathetic. Good point. Maybe I should be? Maybe I’m being sympathetic by being tough and straight? I mean, if I make these points now, maybe I can change tack later? Or is that being manipulative? I feel that whatever I say to Marta isn’t getting through. So I may as well speak to everyone else…..oooooo *cringe*

Fine. I shall do differently and I would encourage everyone here to do as they wish on this board

Can you see my point?

You're also giving what seems to be a caring post about things that do happen on the board from time to time an 'edge' when that is not necesary at all. Simila to a few other threads at the moment.


Yep I see your point. I’m demonizing Marta aren’t I? I’m creating an ‘us and them’ culture which I absolutely abhor. Tricky stuff.

Okay. What shall I do differently? Probably stop responding to Marta? Respond differently? Any advice please?

Good call.

But hey I gotta go. I’m away for a while  :D and need to do lots of stuff. Need to go now! Sorry but I will look for your reply when I can. Thank you. Back next week.

Portia

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2006, 07:48:27 AM »
Herewegoagain:

Another thought or two. I came back of course because of this need to prove myself not stupid. To open my mouth instead of just realising what I’ve done and dealing with it without posting. *thinks* I shouldn’t be here. Not fair. Etc etc. Starts to think about what is the board for anyway? Am I misusing it? Not questions to be answered, no thanks, please don’t. Just showing thought processes.


Marta:

I totally ignored this part of what you were saying:

Ours is a support board, not a suicide intervention hot line or a therapy board, hence we lack the skills that are so necessary in saying the right things that will help them. I see our job with to present ourselves with as much kindness and support as we can, without trying to adminster therapy or see how they are projecting etc. Encourage them to find a therapist or support as soon as possible. Whatever our personal ambivalence about therapy may be, a therapist is absolutely necessary for those who are in danger of suicide.

And I think there’s a serious and good message here which I just tossed aside in my reply to you. Too busy ‘hounding’ you and your opinions versus facts to see the meaning. Sorry.

Yep, I agree, if folks are suicidal or have problems which would be better dealt with elsewhere, we should encourage them to seek that help – be it A&E, therapy, another website and so on. I think we do do this already? Have done. Needs repeating.


I also think I’m putting too much at Dr Grossman’s door. I think I should behave more responsibly and not expect a – what did I call it? – safety valve? Take responsibility for my own stuff, not for the board that is.

I wish I didn’t feel the need to post this in some ways. Maybe that’s okay though? Righting the wrongs is okay if we do it about ourselves I guess. Yeah, that sounds good.

Now I really have exited for a few days. I think! :D

movinon

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2006, 08:46:00 AM »
You go bean!!!!

Portia, thank you for being STRONG and speaking your truth.
An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind.

Portia

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2006, 10:18:23 AM »
Thanks bean and movinon. I am just fine. Just humbled myself a bit. Which is good. Sorting out the humbling from the toxic shame too….tricky or what?! Hard work.

Mud,

all that stuff up there is me being insecure and stuff. If it makes any sense - good, if it sparks anyone /anything – good. But my ego is sometimes too big for my boots…. er brain. And that might be in my boots sometimes too! It helped me of course which is why I wrote it I suppose….. yep.

Been talking and not really thinking too hard of late and have behaved in a way that tells me a lot about myself. (Now this is really N stuff! I’m joking.) I might have been speaking my ‘truth’ a lot BUT some of it has been quite bullying and inconsiderate (how I treated Brigid on Plucky’s thread for example) and I know where it comes from.

Being strong and truthful is okay - but not at other people’s expense. Yes?

Glad to talk dreams anytime! Take care all. And have good weekends :D

Hop guest

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2006, 12:05:46 PM »
Hi Porita,
When an apology is sincerely offered, and the giver is clearly trying to the best of their ability to unearth what was behind their argumentativeness...it's feels so good when the other accepts the apology. (If one feels hurt or angry, or a bit brittle in the boundary department though--who among us N-survivors hasn't??--that can be so hard to do sometimes. Been there, done that.)

However, if you remember that Forgiveness sermon I posted a while back, one has no control over whether another will accept one's apology. You can only give it, and then forgive yourself. There is no way to control or force another's response, though you can hope for it.

To me your ownership of your challenging recent posts recently, acknowledging your insecurity and squarely taking responsibility for the tone and the effect it had...is moving.

For me, "abuse" seems too strong a word to describe those posts. There was frustration, some anger, some degree of aggression--spurred by insecurity as you belatedly realized and owned up to---but to me personally it didn't reach the level of "abuse." To me, it sounded more like the desperation of someone who was feeling voiceless at the time. My T says when one is triggered there, it feels like a life-or-death struggle to be heard and acknowledged. (Your pitch increased when there was no response, I think. That's yours to deal with, I know, and anyone else--always, always has the right to disengage-- but I do have sympathy for what was driving you. Your emotion is what I felt I understood, not so much the logical tit-for-tats.)

It reminded me of how I wanted to retract a post I'd made to someone recently, who mentioned something they felt badly about, and I came on and said "well yes that sure was wrong to do." Imho, that was piling shame onto a place that the poster had just stepped up and taken responsibility for.

This is a valuable experience in conflict, observing myself observing, learning from everyone sharing so much (thank you, all of you--it is a gift)...and thinking about what reconciliation means.

I truly believe that when people can, forgiveness, rather than punishment, moves us all forward.

Love,
Hops

mudpuppy

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2006, 12:09:36 PM »
Hi Portia,

I phrased it poorly. I should have said BECAUSE I have inadvertantly caused you pain, not IF I have inadvertantly caused you pain.

I did not feel attacked. I did not know what you were referring to and I presented a possible interpretation, and my objection to that interpretation. The important modifier 'if' began the sentence in question. I didn't put it there without reason.

If someone misunderstands something innocent I have said and takes it as an insult, I generally try to look at it from their perspective and just assume it was a misunderstanding. I don't assume the person was thinking I am some kind of slithering beast of the night. Just because I thought you might have made a wise crack to make your point does not, from my perspective, mean I am demeaning you or think of you less highly than others. I think you're expecting me to hold people to too high a standard. EVERYBODY says things they shouldn't, and there is no reason for you to be exempt from that possibility anymore than anyone else.

Please don't ask me to go through posts looking for a sarcastic comment by you. The incident I recall was a perfectly innocent episode several months ago that we PMed about. I'm sure I do not have the posts nor do I even remember what it was about. But it really doesn't matter does it? Your H says you are occasionally sarcastic so apparently you are capable of it. Its not like its the crime of the century to occasionally have a smart mouth. If it was my daughter would be serving a life term without parole, and I'd probably be in the cell next door. A person can be a wise ass without causing harm. There might be a little sting in the humor but it is usually to make a perfectly legitimate point. Often times I believe a sarcastic comment can be used to couch mild criticism in a little humor, when a direct criticism might very well lead to unnecessary conflict. Having said all that however, given the imprecision of human language and human perception I will grant that it is theoretically possible that you have never used sarcasm on this board and my perception of your use of it was in error.

I hope this is a sufficient explanation and everything is AOK for everyone, because frankly my brain is starting to hurt. :? :oops:

mud

movinon

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2006, 12:15:32 PM »

and it is in the conflict that people begin to face their own fears and short comings.

Amen Jac

Hop guest - very eloquently put

Mud - frankly my brain is starting to hurt.  -tooo funny :lol:

Movinon
An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind.

Hopalong

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Re: Are We Okay?
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2006, 09:14:20 PM »
Hi Marta,
I'm very sorry for the pain you've felt too. "Punched" carries a lot of pain.

I am thinking that as much as has been weathered on this thread I began, perhaps it would be good to close it now while we all breathe some.

I don't know if the person who starts a thread can lock it, but I'll give it a try.

I am sorry we all weren't all okay...but not for the chance to learn from it.

Thanks to all of you, because you all plunged in and tried. It wasn't wasted.
There may be belated gifts...I hope there will be.

In the meantime, peace...
Hopalong
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."