Is it ok to say: "I hate you."?

[Sela]

Portia:

Thankyou for a wonderful , eye opening, truth-exposing post!!  You are so right!

I don't know what high horse I thought I was on yesterday but most certainly, I'll climb down now.   I don't mean to say that I am incapable of raging and saying hurtful things to anyone.  Ofcourse I could.  Ofcourse, I have.

I totally agree........there are moments of madness, I bet, in most people's lives.  Times when we act without thinking or simply behave in ways we really don't understand.  Thankyou so much for pointing that out and speaking from your personal experience.  I don't feel brave enough today to do that.

Maybe, another day.

There are grey areas and any of us might walk away or "not think".  Good point.

That bastard. I hated him right then. I still hate him in that moment - his actions? No, I can honestly say I hate him in that moment. He wasn’t my parent, he was someone who had just turned up and taken over. Was controlling my mother.

I'm so sorry this happened Portia.  You are definately entitled to express your feelings and they are valid.  Probably, any child would feel the same or similar feelings in the same situation.  And......the rage....that hate....evolved very quickly, for you too, probably, because you had no way to express your anger and other feelings???   Not fair.  Not fair at all.

A 3/4 year old, who doesn’t yet have a brain that reasons, a brain that is capable of logical cause and effect thought and can work out alternatives? Yes it’s still ‘them’ in control, but do we expect a child to choose between saying “I hate you” and walking away? A child can’t walk away when it is still dependent? What is it like to be 3 or 4 anyway. ?

I totally agree.    If children are taught from a very young age how to express their feelings and that it is safe to do so, that gives them an edge though, I think.  But I know what you mean.  It's not like I would have punished my child for saying:  "I hate you" had she said it.  I would have explained that those words hurt me and I understand that she is probably feeling very, very angry and asked could she say what happened or what I did or said etc.

In your case, it doesn't seem likely that that option of expressing much at all was present.  I'm sorry that that happened to you, Portia, and no wonder you had bouts of rage that seemed to explode from no where.

I think I got a lot of mine out when I was really young and doing martial arts and playing music 'till my fingy's hurt.   But I'm no angel and have most certainly behaved in ways I can't explain some times and/or acted without thinking.

Did she decline after this, did she – here comes an old-fashioned expression – go mad?

I think this was a gradual process that began when she hit menopause and progressed until the day she died.  She had periods of complete "madness" and near the end......was practically consumed with paranoia, hearing stuff specifically directed at her........coming out of the tv, the radio and even the loud speaker in the grocery store.  To be honest......it scared the tar outta me (as a teenager and even as a young adult).

My father terrorized her every possible moment.

I should..........hate him.  But I don't honestly feel that rage or deep, deep anger or whatever hate is.

He was a lot sicker than her.

Madness. I like the definition: insanity is not knowing the difference between what is in my head and what isn’t. Losing touch with reality. Hearing voices, seeing delusions. Many people are mad on this basis but it’s the severity I guess. And I think we can all have ‘moments of madness’, and we mean, insanity.

And for some reason I have no idea why........I guess I realized this, even at a young age.   I'd get mad, but then.....I'd think:  "But he's nuts and really....can't help it".  Again......not an excuse but I guess I understood it......definately wanted away from it.......and the feelings it all generated were more .....pity...than anything.

I think when your mom said I hate you, she wasn’t in the reality right there, right then. I don’t think she was talking to you. I think maybe she was talking to her mother. I really don’t think it was ‘you’. Do you? You were there, I wasn’t, I don’t know.

Maybe she was talking to my father.  She did look crazed and I didn't get that, I don't think, at that particular moment.  Right then, I think I did just feel my own feelings and not take pity on her.   When I think about that.......feeling my own feelings.......left a deep hurt.  Maybe I'd have been better to feel pity for her, at that moment and do as you said you would:  "think: "you're nuts"?

It sounded like justified rage (‘outrage’) to me. It didn’t sound as though what the person described was similar to my past experiences. There wasn’t that sense of not knowing why they had acted as they did, to me.

So are you saying, in this case, the person had a choice?  That's kind of what I think I was thinking when I said I bet a lot of people use "losing it" as an excuse, in court.  People are tricky.  They can deceive.  And none of us can get inside anyone else and really know.......what's going on...especially.....when they're describing past events, that we we're not present for.......getting our own feel for the situation.  I don't know.

Nothing is absolute.  That's my main statement today.  I'm willing to change my mind and say that it might be ok to say:  "I hate you" sometimes.  It might be a "moment of madness" or deep rage emerging from some dark place.  I'm still glad I tried to teach my kids to use some restraint, if at all possible.  I know I've mentioned that we all have moments when we act without thinking and that no one is perfect or capable of always behaving perfectly.  I think they know I love them no matter what.

It’s been five years so it’s looking good.

Glad to hear it.  Some people, I think too, are born with a stronger temper than others.  Is that the right way to say it??  We're all different and so how quickly we feel anger and over what......will differ too eh?  Or is that learned??  I suppose it's possible but then.....I should have learned to rage like a maniac, at least once I was away from there?

The brain is an amazing device isn't it?  The word "trigger" is pretty accurate when I think about rage and what might set it off. 

I don't really feel rage or like raging too often.  Every now and then though.....

Good thing for bongo drums and this board.  ((((((((thanks Portia)))))))) for posting your truth.

  Sela

[Portia]

Hiya i was gone but this botherated my wee brain so I came back..

Right then, I think I did just feel my own feelings and not take pity on her.   When I think about that.......feeling my own feelings.......left a deep hurt.  Maybe I'd have been better to feel pity for her, at that moment and do as you said you would:  "think: "you're nuts"?

...it was the phrase "Maybe I'd have been better to feel" that stuck in my head and well i couldn't just let it go could I? I bet i don't need to say a darn word do I?.....

Deep deep hurt (((((((((Sela))))))))) feelings are felt

I hope thinking about the reasons for someone else's actions might help us see our feelings and help us .... diminish the hurt we felt at the time, lessen the impact of the feelings, today. Or let us feel those feelings with full force today (that was a traumatic experience! full on hurt and pain Sela) and then - work them through. But do let them out and think when have you felt exactly like that since? That kind of hurt and pain as it felt with your mother - maybe you haven't but you know how trauma is repeated by being triggered by similar situations; the brain reacts as if it is back there etc.

Maybe I can do that with my example; but I can't see the reasons clearly for his behaviour. Maybe I'll work on that - and her behaviour too. I just don't know what i was being punished for!!!!! I have no idea, I have no memory of anything prior to what happened. Maybe I'll ask if she remembers it? There be bears alright.  I'll live

[Hopalong]

SelaPortiaPennySugarJacMoonJessicaBean... wow. What an extraordinary thread.

Sela, thank you for starting it and for your persistently eloquent weaving. And commitment.
Portia, your doggedness amazes me too. You work so hard it feels to me as though you BLAST through to new layers of insight.

I haven't had the energy to pitch in much, but just want to say how much respect you all inspire in me for the effort and elegance of this.

Hops

[Sela]

Hiya back P:

I bet i don't need to say a darn word do I?.....

Truth?  I had a feeling you would comment on that but I left it in because it's an honest thought.

But honestly....I was being honest.  What I mean is......there is a point at which we can and do, sometimes, decide our reality.  But that moment....when I felt that hurt and pain that was mine......could have.....would have maybe....been different for me....had I thought differently or thought first and not just felt.

Who the heck is capable of doing that all the time?  I sure don't know anyone.  My point is simply that in a way, I find it true that I can effect my reactions to stuff......when I think first.  And like you said, Portia,

I think some people are too crazy to restrain themselves?

If someone says “I hate you” to me, am I in pain? Nope. I think they’re nuts. Sad but not my problem. Haha no I’m not that cold and cruel, I’m trying to make a point. You said the words cause pain. It depends doesn’t it?

Most of the time, I was able to think first and so the hurt, angry, confused feelings just didn't happen for me.  I really did think they were both fairly "crazy" a lot of the time and I took pity on them both, more often than their words or actions to heart (my heart).  Lucky me or I'd be a walking bomb, maybe eh?

But that time with my mother saying words that seemed to penetrate so deep, with such lightening speed, before my poor, over-taxed brain had a chance to boot up........well....thankyou Portia.  Her words did hurt a lot and I appreciate you're acknowledging that and pointing out the importance of my really feeling it.

I hope thinking about the reasons for someone else's actions might help us see our feelings and help us .... diminish the hurt we felt at the time

Me too.  And seeing my mother deteriorate into a shell full of fear and watching my father's actions.....which caused........it all.....does help diminish it.   So does your big hug.  Thankyou P.

 

That kind of hurt and pain as it felt with your mother - maybe you haven't but you know how trauma is repeated by being triggered by similar situations; the brain reacts as if it is back there etc.

Definately this has happened.  Probably anyone who ever says:  "I hate you" (other than my kids) to me, will be dealing with me........dealing with my mother!!  Or might have......had you not reminded me to keep this in mind.  Thanks Portia.

Ofcourse......my brain doesn't always cooperate and it goes blank too, sometimes.  Like in the office with that T.  All I did at that moment.....was feel......embarassed, insulted, belittled, whatever.  If my good brain had of taken over, I might have considered other possible motives for his behaviour and I might have asked him.

"What do you mean, doc?"

I agree.....he was a jerk......but in some situations.......it might be my reacting to my feeling, instead of thinking..... that is actually the culprit.  I might be misinterpreting or misunderstanding or misperceiving or judging incorrectly.  That could happen!! (I hope you giggled......because I really am trying to be funny.   It happens.  It happens).

Maybe I can do that with my example; but I can't see the reasons clearly for his behaviour. Maybe I'll work on that - and her behaviour too.

It's not always an easy thing to see or even try to do.  In a way, my situation was much easier to examine.    The nutty behaviour was easy to define as nutty.  Nobody else's parents acted like mine.  They were abnormal, especially my father, but by my teenhood, my mother was seriously that way too.   For you, maybe it wasn't so obvious?  More confusing?   Things were more subtle?

I just don't know what i was being punished for!!!!!

((((((((Portia))))))).  Nothing.  Zilch.  Notta.

You were a child and and he was, like the doc, like my dad, in a position of power.  You didn't have to do anything wrong for him to assert his power.    He couldn't stand your expressing your feeling.

You were angry about something so you threw a pencil on the floor.  Instead of him saying:

"Are you angry P?  What's up?"

He asserts his power.  He orders you to obey.  He ignors your feeling and he uses his power to direct your next act..........to control........or else!!

 

It's the unspoken "or else" that puts the biggest fear in a kid eh?  We just don't know what might happen next?

Did you ever defy him?  Did you ever say:  "I hate you" to him?  I can see why that might be very tempting and almost necessary (ok......I did say I'm willing to change my mind....didn't I?).  Yes.  I think it would have been ok........understandable.......reasonable......to say that to him.  From your point of view (or my trying to feel from your point of view  ).

From his end:  Was he used to children?  Did he like them?  Was he generally a patient person or was he a kind of......ruler over your mother too?  

I bet he just wanted you out of the picture?  Wanted your mother all to himself?  Wanted you to just be a little flower, if he had to put up with you, and maybe wanted you to just stand around looking sweet and pretty and to be very....quiet?

How can I say that?  I don't know the guy.  I'm just guessing, I guess.  I could be waaaaaaaay off.

sorry (((((((Portia))))))).  I feel your deep pain over that incident too.  I'll be away now until mid next week but I hope you too will "feel those feelings" and "work through them" and talk so more about them here, if it helps.

This thread has helped me a lot.  I'm very grateful for everyone's point of view.  Otherwise, I'd be stuck feeling just.......angry with a stupid T who really......can just go away from my head now......and live elsewhere!   And the pain from what my mother said......it's really not there any more.  I can recall it.....if I try  but honestly......I cried and cried, after she said that, and wrote and wrote, and played and played and then......for the most part....just kept it as a reminder of .....for me........how not to behave.  No one has said:  "I hate you" to me since and if they ever do, hopefully I'll remember this thread and remind myself to be sure I'm not ....talking to my mother or something.  And hopefully....also maybe I'll think to say:  "Those are very hurtful words.  You have a right to express your anger but also a responsibility to do so......in a reasonable manner....without using words as weapons.  Wanna try again?  Tell me what you feel?"  (or some equally firm but strong......expression of my opinion ... a  real voicing!!).

Hoppy:   

effort and elegance of this

I swear!  Where do you come up with such wonderful terms?  It doesn't feel elegant at all to me.  It feels like more like mucking around in a puddle but thanks for saying that.  You make it sound so lovely.  Hey!  Glad you're reading and sorry you don't have the energy.  ((((((hope you're ok Hops))))))

Sela

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya all

This a fabulous thread.... really thought provoking but I also find it amazing that everyone has given so much of themselves here.

I think the thing for me here is for a child to say to a parent "I hate you" is very different than a parent saying it to a child.  Not 100% sure why, but I feel that a parent saying it to a child is much worse.  Why???  Possibly because the parent should know better.... hmmmmmmmm.

I don't think I've ever told anyone I've hated them.  I've thought it, especially about Mum when I was growing up, but never said it.

H&H xx

[Hopalong]

H & H:

I don't think I've ever told anyone I've hated them

.

Why am I not One Tiny Little Iota surprised to hear this about you????

You are a glow on my horizon, you know.

(((((H&H)))))

Hops

[Portia]

Hi Sela, thanks for asking questions. I think I’m ready to talk.

You were angry about something so you threw a pencil on the floor.  Instead of him saying:
"Are you angry P?  What's up?"
He asserts his power.  He orders you to obey.  He ignors your feeling and he uses his power to direct your next act..........to control........or else!!

I was angry? Nope, I had just come out of a dissociating rage. I saw him holding me aloft through my mother’s eyes. I saw myself the wee kiddie with arms and legs absolutely flailing in all directions. I was screaming, red in the face, completely lost it. My mother looks on, quiet, shocked maybe, saying nothing, doing nothing. I have no idea what exactly was happening to me previously or why it was happening. I remember him saying, laughing, “oh look at this mum” as he took my pants down and exposed my buttocks upwards. (He was holding me horizontally somehow.) Then I’m back in me, standing on the ground, looking at the ground, and I see this pen whatever and pick it up to throw it down. Obviously I think I was being punished for something but whatever it was has been completely blocked by his actions. I have no idea. He didn’t hit me I don’t think. Oh no, it far more bloody cruel than being hit! It was weird dominating sexual sort of humiliation and control. Somehow. I just don’t know. I wish I knew what I had done? or was supposed to have done?

Did you ever defy him?  Did you ever say:  "I hate you" to him? 

Nope. I was too scared. I had to pretend to love him. I lived in his house. I had to keep to his ‘rules’. First day of school 5 years old this girl says to me ‘let’s go into the library’ and I say ‘are we allowed?’.
 
From his end:  Was he used to children?  Did he like them?  Was he generally a patient person or was he a kind of......ruler over your mother too?   

He had two children of his own. And an ex-wife. Or maybe she wasn’t ex at that time, what do I know, I wasn’t allowed to ask bloody questions. Not even about facts. They made me use his surname. At school. At 16 I got my NI card with this bastard name on it. That was the only time I went into a justified rage with them. They were shocked. I just organised it myself, re-instated my father’s name on everything. It hadn’t been legal. Good job I hadn’t taken any exams by then eh? Parents? I wish I’d been adopted. Oh yeah, his kids are both totally screwed up. ((((His kids))))

I bet he just wanted you out of the picture? 
I was, every single weekend. Thank goodness. The weekend childhood.

Wanted your mother all to himself?  Yep.
Wanted you to just be a little flower, if he had to put up with you, and maybe wanted you to just stand around looking sweet and pretty and to be very....quiet?
Wanted me to love him. To make him feel good. To exist to feed his ego. To be the dumping ground for his anger towards my mother when she didn’t do exactly what he wanted. He could blame me for her ‘depression’ she could blame me for upsetting their relationship, Christ they could both blame me for existing. 


H&H

amazing that everyone has given so much of themselves here.

If we don’t give, we don’t get? I learn by writing here.

a child to say to a parent "I hate you" is very different than a parent saying it to a child.  Not 100% sure why, but I feel that a parent saying it to a child is much worse.

Because a child is dependent upon the parent for it’s life when it’s born and when it grows. A parent is not dependent upon it’s child, biologically. For a parent to say ‘I hate you’ to it’s child is an abuse of their stronger position. Older children may want their parents to die, that’s the ‘natural’ (survival) order: for parents to want their children to die – that’s against survival. Back to sacrifice and religion here. God gave his only son and I’m supposed to be happy about that? Child sacrifice? That’s a bit close to the bone for me to swallow without a big fight.

Bean

This idea that humans are above animals (or should be) is in my mind, a little naive.

I think it’s downright arrogant of humans to think this. Humans are animals too. Just because we have big brains and opposable thumbs doesn’t mean we know how to use them to be helpful and not harmful. I often prefer animals to humans as companions. I’d rather talk to the birds in my garden (and I do) than the JWs who turn up on my doorstep wanting to impose their views on me (but of course I talk to them too, it’s quid quo pro! ).

[Sela]

Hiya Portia:

I must have misunderstood this:

I picked up a pen or pencil and threw it in anger on the floor.


It was weird dominating sexual sort of humiliation and control.
Yes, it sure seems like that.  He sounds like he was domineering and corrupt.

I wish I knew what I had done? or was supposed to have done?

Portia, I'm not sure why this is so important to know??  What could a 3/4/5 year old little girl possibly doooooo to deserve to be treated with such disrespect?  How could what you have done be of any consquence whatsoever?  His treatment of you was improper.  It was his problem.....his behaviour was the problem.....his parenting was the problem.  ((((((((P))))))))

I had to pretend to love him. I lived in his house. I had to keep to his ‘rules’

Poor little (((((((((P)))))))).   So did you pull it off?  Were you able to "pretend" well enough?  Did you obey?
That just sounds so controlling of him and so difficult and scary for a little girl to have to do.  I'm sorry that happened and that you had to endure all of that Portia.  He WAS a bastard!!

They made me use his surname. At school.

Control!!  Control control control control control!!!!      Deprived of the most basic right......your name!  That was a terrible thing to do and a terrible thing for your mother to allow!!  I'm glad you made a big stink about it, once you were old enough to and claimed what is rightfully yours....back!!  Good for you Portia!!  You did what you had to.....to survive and once you could take a stand.....you did!!!  That took guts and determination.   And you used your anger to protect yourself!  I'm so glad!!  That was a big statement and you did a fine job of making it!!

My mother looks on, quiet, shocked maybe, saying nothing, doing nothing.

I bet she did that a lot?   But these days......it seems you're finding it easier to understand her behaviour than his???  She just isn't capable of parenting properly???  Do you think he was??

I bet he just wanted you out of the picture? 
I was, every single weekend. Thank goodness. The weekend childhood.

Yes.  Thank goodness!!  That weekend childhood saved you, I bet?  Do you have lots of good memories about those weekends?  I hope so.   I'm glad that weekend childhood happened so you could have a childhood.  Otherwise.......just imagine how much worse it might have been?  ((((((((Portia)))))).

Wanted me to love him. To make him feel good. To exist to feed his ego. To be the dumping ground for his anger towards my mother when she didn’t do exactly what he wanted. He could blame me for her ‘depression’ she could blame me for upsetting their relationship, Christ they could both blame me for existing.

Sounds like a form of emotional incest to me.  ???  I'm so sorry P.  I'm glad you are you and not like them at all!    You are so responsible!  You even want to know what you did wrong (and you didn't dooooo anything wrong enough to justify their behaviour.  impossible because such behaviour is not justifiable).

My mom did a similar thing to me, which I've never talked about.   Like you were their dumping ground for whatever they saw wrong with their situation and their relationship, like you were expected to some how... fix it;  my mother dumped a good part of her emotional pain on me and I got the same feeling......like I should somehow fix it......save her......but I couldn't.  Neither could you.  We were just children for crying out loud!!  We could not save them from themselves or their situations nor could we possibly be responsible for that kind of stuff.   They were very irresponsible about it all and dumped on us. , I think, and we were being required to do the impossible!!  How insane!!  How ridiculous!!  How unfair!!

It wasn't your fault P nor was it mine.   You were not a "bad" child nor was I.  It's a trick....a deception we absorbed, I think.  No matter what you did...it doesn't matter.  It was their behaviour that was inappropriate.  No matter what I did....it doesn't matter.  My mother needed a T not a child to help her solve her problems and help save herself.  Her behaviour was inappropriate.  It was inappropriate of her to place the weight of her sorrow, her anger, her confusion, her helplessness, her terror.......

......on me.

It was inappropriate of your step dad to place his frustration.....his anger......his need to blame and control.......on ((((((little you)))))) and for your mother, not to protect you from him.   They were both sick too P.  Sick people.  Ill.  Not well in their heads.  I'm so sorry you had to endure them.

I'm glad you don't have to put up with him any more.  Good riddence!!  Talk some more, if it helps.   Get it out.  Why not?   Maybe some behaviour is just not something we will ever understand?  But the feelings generated by such behaviour.......need to be released.  I really think so.  If it's rage and hate you feel toward their behaviour......that rage and hate aren't hurting them.  Those feelings are more likely not doing you any good......being kept inside and sort of....in check.   What do you think P?

Hey Bean:  This idea that humans are above animals

I don't think humans are above animals in many senses.  I do think we are human animals and more frequently choose to act.....rather than act on mostly...instinct, as animals seem to, so often.    I think they are better at acting on their instincts than we are, a lot of the time.  Also......I've seen my dogs "think" things through

Example:  Once, when my one dog was a pup, my older dog was sitting and waiting on me to give her some lettuce (she lovvvvvvvves lettuce!! ).  Anyway, the pup mosied over and sat beside the older dog, waiting too (looking so cute and confused.....turning her head from side to side, almost saying:  "What are we waiting for?  Can I have some too?").  The older dog looked at the pup and seemed to be thinking and then scanned around the room.  Suddenly, the older dog got up, walked to the other side of the room, picked up a toy, walked to the centre of the room, shook the toy around a llittle and then placed it on the floor.  Next, the pup got up, walked over and picked up the toy and started "playing" with it.  That's when the older dog.....seemed to creep back and sit down, waiting for her lettuce, giving sideway glances at the pup, as if to make sure the pup was still busy with the toy.  ("I want all the lettuce.  I'm not sharing with you.  How can I distract you?  Let me see?  There's a toy over there!  Hmmmmmm??").

 

I think animals have feelings too.  I've seen examples of that too and they do seem to sense my feelings and react with efforts to comfort me. 

((((((H&H and Hoppy)))))).  I find it hard to imagine either of you using stinging words to cause hurt to anyone.  You both seem way too kind to ever do that.  It's people like you who make the world a beautfiul place.

  Sela

[Hopalong]

Portia,
I want to piggyback every single iintuitive empathic word Sela just said about your stepfather and your mother and your BRAVERY and SANITY and PERSISTENCE. I am deeply impressed with you and just feel a whole lot of respect. Plus, I too wonder if your anger might still need more release so you can have peace and be happy. I would not want it to be a constant recurring torment cycling through your life so you only have...weekend happiness. Or perhaps it's grief. I get the two very mixed up and maybe they each need some air time.

ANY adult who gets pleasure out of frightening and taking joy out of a child is damaged beyond reconciliation, to me. I mean, I would forgive and work with such a man kindly, in his jail cell.
But this is (metaphorically) his sentence...he is already locked away from the joy of loving Portia. What a fool. Imagine what enrichment this precious little daughter-person could have brought to his life. He did not know how to value you. He had a diamond and thought it was gravel. Blind and broken man.

Thank heaven YOU DO value you.... Right? Promise? Practice if you forget? (((((((Portia))))))

Sela,
Thank you SOOOOOO much for the lettuce story! I don't know why but those stories of dogs' intelligence and subtlety just make me absurdly happy. I'm going to start a new thread so maybe we'll get a few.
((((Sela)))))

Hops

[Portia]

Thank you Sela….

I must have misunderstood this
Nope….I just wasn’t ready to say what happened before the pencil thing. I was hiding it. Don’t think I’ve written that before. It’s too – confusing / shameful / loaded / just too weird. Not really shameful but icky I guess. Not knowing why? - It’s trying to make sense of it I suppose. And it makes no sense, which blows my circuits.

Yah the name thing. I was about ooo don’t know. Starting the second primary school (I went to four) so about 6/7/8 must have been over 7 because I remember thinking “this isn’t for me, it’s for you”. My mother bent down to button up my coat looked in my eyes and said “we’ve decided it would be easier if you didn’t use your Dad’s name at school and it would be better if you used his, do you understand?” and I said ‘yes’ but then I was disgraced because at school, I didn’t know how to spell his name. I remember the teacher asked to see my mother about it and I just felt, hmmm, not a lot, I knew it wasn’t my fault. Yeah I must’ve been over 7 to reason that one out.

He was a big kid. Terrified of being abandoned.

my mother dumped a good part of her emotional pain on me and I got the same feeling......like I should somehow fix it......save her......but I couldn't.
(((((((((Sela)))))))))
I’m not sure I got it directly (his anger, her emotional incest) when I was young. I think I took the role of mother’s protector/carer to a point in direct competition to him, the great intruder. I can’t remember a lot.

I agree they were both sick. I’m glad he’s dead from my point of view (and that was my rock from space event, seeing her without him and realising he was not the whole problem, which i thought he was, for decades).


Hiya Hops, thank you for your kind words. Not sure I deserve respect; being logical here….if it wasn’t for my grandparents, I would be a (insert something) so it was luck really. Anger vs. grief I can’t tell a lot of the time, maybe it cycles around, one leads to other and back again.

I like the words “taking joy out of a child” yeah…I had the joy taken out of me, that feels right.
Imagine what enrichment this precious little daughter-person could have brought to his life.
 I find that very difficult to imagine, really, I can’t imagine it. I have to try and think how great kids are and when I do, it’s a bit of an overload, putting those images in my past?  I've only just found out how great kids are in the last two years so it's all a bit much. Before that i carried my mother's view that all children ruin your life and I sincerely believed that was my belief. Denying my past i guess and projecting all the bad stuff on to kids? (Kids like me btw and i thank fate that I didn't turn out to be - something much worse.)

It does get scary sometimes to think “it was that bad” because you worry – what is still screwy about me that I can’t see? But then everyone does have problems don’t they? Some more than others too.


Thanks both, I think I’ve exhausted this one. How about you Sela, have you come to a bedded-in conclusion about your original question?

Animals and arrogance: I was watching a wildlife tv show last night, monkeys frolicking in shallow water in the Amazon and the voice-over said: “the monkeys do this during the hotter hours, presumably to cool off, but they also appear to be doing it for fun…”

…..as though that’s odd, strange, unusual – that animals do things for fun.

What assumptions some make about other species eh?

[Sela]

Hi again P and all:

It’s trying to make sense of it I suppose. And it makes no sense, which blows my circuits.

Crazy people do stuff that makes no sense.  You were just a little girl and what he did was senseless (etc). 

then I was disgraced because at school, I didn’t know how to spell his name. I remember the teacher asked to see my mother about it and I just felt, hmmm, not a lot, I knew it wasn’t my fault. Yeah I must’ve been over 7 to reason that one out.

I'm glad you were able to reason it out.  I would have felt embarrassed, I think and probably angry  .

seeing her without him and realising he was not the whole problem, which i thought he was, for decades

Wow!  That sounds like a real turning point.  I want to comfort you because it just sounds like another loss (it was all step-dad.....woops!.....no it wasn't!  The mum you thought you had.....suddnely gone.   So sorry (((P))).

How about you Sela, have you come to a bedded-in conclusion about your original question?

Well, I think the discussion has helped me to have a more flexible view of those words, to a certain extent.   Hate is just something I've rejected most of my life, which in my case, I think has been a good thing.  I can get real angry but my general mo is to get it out...express it.....and not let it sit and cook inside me.  It's something I started doing at a young age and I've tried to teach my children to do.  I think it's the best way to handle anger, if it is at all possible.  I know that isn't always possible either.

Talking here has made it clear that I have to remember not to be so absolute about it.  Anger gets repressed/ignored/stifled/beaten into submission, sometimes.  I can see how that can happen to people and really, I haven't changed my mind about it being a not great thing for that person.  But it might be necessary in order to survive and it might come out....in the form of those words, which might be ok, in some situations.  Let's face it, that's not a whole lot of change for me but it's a little.

I agree that hate is a strong emotion however I believe it is one that most people do not have to experience, if they learn to express their anger before it becomes that strong.   Maybe in many cases of abuse, people do not learn how to express it and so there is a bigger chance of hate being something they carry around.

I still think "I hate you" are words that are generally used with the intention of causing hurt, a lot of the time, and I try not to do that because I find it just another wrong after the first wrong.  I'd rather, if I can possibly muster the words, be more direct about the behaviour that has riled me, about my feelings as a result, about what I expect to happen/to change and what the consequences will be, if that doesn't happen.  But that's because I'm an adult now and I feel much more confident about saying what I think and feel.

It's different when you're a little girl and you don't have the opportunity to speak out and so what happens is your feelings have to be contained and might grow bigger, especially, as more are added to the container.  I can easily see how hate might develop in such a case, how it might come out in a burst of words, once adulthood or other opportunity is reached, and how that may be exactly what has to happen to really say what is felt.

I think this thread has helped me to realize that my definition of what those words actually mean was a bit too slim.  I think that definition is wider now so that's a good thing.

I would still like to caution my children to be careful and hesitant to use those words but I think I'll ask them, instead, what they think......if it's ok or not.......if they want to know why I feel so strongly about it.....what they're experiences have been.......and maybe they'll have lot's to say and I can learn something from them.

Words are tricky.  That's for sure, imo.

  Sela

[gratitude28]

Thanks for pulling this up bean.
My thoughts - it is NOT ok to say I hate you, and you some unresolved feelings if you feel hatred.
Some of you have spouses that you might feel you hate now. I would bet that is because you still have some tiny feelings of caring about the person.
Sela, I would have left this Doctor too.
Love, Beth

[Overcomer]

I say hate a lot.  When someone says I JUST LOST 50 POUNDS I say I hate you.  When my husband is on a drunken rant I say IT IS OFFICIAL!  I HATE YOU!  The first is in gest and the second is in desperation.

[lighter]

Sela:

I think writing a letter to that doc would help you process the feelings involved for you. 

You may not send it.... but you'll feel a lot more secure and centered about the feelings involved when it's written.... and maybe you do send it?

::shrug::

As for your daughter..... I think it's common for children to say they hate their parents.   It may mean more when you hear it, bc you have context that's painful... but kids don't know exactly what it means yet.

They children aren't so invested in the words... and this is a good learning opportunity to give them better words and help them understand how their words will be heard out in the world one day.

What I concentrate on, with my children, is not the words "I hate you"....

 but the words I DO WANT THEM TO USE INSTEAD.

I address the feelings that predecessed the anger and validate it.

"I know you're frustrated bc you couldn't have that Webkin, I can see that'

Then I give her words to express that herself..... and I don't take her words to heart because she's still learning to navigate her feelings... that's what kids do. 

Believe me, it took other veteran parents to help me handle this in the beginning.... I took it to heart too.

Now..... my children can use calming words when I get a little bent out of shape myself.... say... in traffic?

"Mommy, use your little voice..."  ::sigh:: That's when I know they hear the lessons... and they're gaining tools I want them to have. 

Your daughter may be older now.... but she still has to learn how to communicate  and process difficult emotions.

She can't be stomping around college campus or her work environment telling people she hates them when she has a problem.

What can she say and how will she say it?  If I hate you isn't working for her, and it's not....

I guess it's like modeling and giving her tools she can use for the rest of her life.

It's not about her difficult feelings towards you.... it's about your teaching her to deal with, and express difficult feelings, KWIM?

Wow... this thread is amazing.... look at all the wonderful responses: )

I feel like mine is a first graders attempt, lol... but send it anyway.

[reallyME]

First of all, I want to say that I think we on the Vboard have some really BRILLIANT minds.  The topics that come up are really awesome.

Secondly, I personally do not and teach my children not to use the word "HATE" about any human being.  The actions of a person are what we hate, since each human was originally created to emulate Yahuwshu`a (JESUS to some).  Each person was originally created in God's own image.

There is a Bible verse I stand on for this :  "how can you say you love God whom you cannot see yet hate your brother whom you can."  God calls people who do this, liars.

I do not believe in even saying "oh i hate you" to a person who is skinny while I'm overweight.  Even in jest, this word just feels so vicious and evil  to me.

I have never used this word with any of the people from my past, that i can recall, nor have they ever said it to me.  There have been a LOT of really bad feelings between us, but I can't say that hatred was ever one of them.  Disappointed, Disillusioned, Abused, Mistreated, Forsaken, Abandoned, Wounded, Hurt, Angry, Sad, Tired, Those were the words that always passed between us...not hatred though.

Even my own daughter who says I'm stupid, fat, old, ugly, retarded, etc...NEVER told me she HATED me when she came to an age of reason (as I child, many of them stand in their bedrooms and say "I HATE YOU MOMMY!"  to which I've always responded, "I'm sorry you feel that way.  I LOVE you."


~Laura