There ARE no demons or devils. There are people and there is Spirit.

[write]

I don't see how I can continue to post here when people are posturing such nonsense, but maybe if I can share with you a little of what it's like to live with a mental illness which causes psychosis you will appreciate what I have to say.

Imagine you are very busy, very active, starting off pretty well and healthy. You maybe take on a bit too much, overreact a bit. Suddenly overreach into mood swings and not quite knowing what is happening, you withdraw a little. Your confidence is shaken but your energy increases. The world gets louder, brighter, faster...then slows down and you can't get into it. Everything should be moving at a different pace.
People speak too slowly, their words fall off at the end, their expressions are meaningless.
Background noises intervene. I was pursued, I was in trouble.

I heard wolves.

I heard wolves clear as anything, wept for two days as my family and doctors declared me delusional and made plans for my treatment and I couldn't make them hear ME.

Until they did hear.

A neighbour dog had puppies and the stupid owners locked them all in the garage.

I heard wolves- the people around me heard me- the real sound was right there for anyone without preconceptions to interpret, a bunch of abandonned dogs.

***

When I was first married a neighbour came to me and told me she was a witch. She was clearly having a psychotic episode, and though I had no knowledge of psychiatry or experience of social work I told her to meet me for dinner. I had no idea what to o, only a vague notion i should be kind.
We ate and she told me her husband had another woman and told her it was her fault and she brought 'the trouble' on their household etc. Her teenage daughter had taken to manipulating her by calling her 'witch'.

After dinner she turned to me and asked if she was a witch, if she was possessed.

I had no knowledge of religious matters or psychiatry back then. But I still consider it the best work in the field I did.

I told her that she was NOT a witch, that she was having some psychological problems and that talking to her doctor would help. I told her she was stressed beyond belief.

And I told her- there are no witches.

***

There are no wolves.
There are no witches.
Thre are no devils or demons.

You people who can believe in such phenomena have a luxury which the mentally ill do not.

***

There are people. Who seem able to wreak as much havoc as they care on the world.

And there is Spirit.
Trust in Spirit.
There are no devils, no demons. Unless you let someone free with a selfish, judgemental or wicked imagination....

"Peace I leave with you. My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, give I to you. Don't let your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful"

Amen

[portia guest]

(((((((((Write)))))))))
Just want to offer a big hug. I feel you're becoming upset. I'm not upset. I'm still here. You can post, you just have done. I'd not like it if you didn't post.

Are you expecting some negative reactions to your post? I think you might get some. Be prepared! You posted and there will be consequences but we'll survive, nobody dies here. 

Just a thought about this:
You people who can believe in such phenomena have a luxury which the mentally ill do not.

I've said it before....being mentally healthy is very difficult to define. Sanity is a tricky concept. When i came here I wasn't exactly balanced and healthy (am I now? I wonder)...so....maybe reflect and consider what healthy/unhealthy might look like? And whose definitions do we use?

Why does it bother you so what goes on on a single thread? Maybe you need to state your reality very clearly and that's okay. In stating it, maybe you're demonstrating that you feel threatened by the ideas being discussed and stated? I'm not sure I feel threatened as such. Does me saying that help at all? If you want to talk about this off board, feel free. On onboard, i don't mind either way

Let's have some cheesey oatcakes together (i had some last week! purchased in Sainsbury's "down bloody South") ((((write))))

[Healing&Hopeful]

Bless ya (((((((Write)))))))

For me, I'm quite happy for people to believe whatever they want to believe if they think it helps them through life.  Our belief system is something so personal, some beliefs helpful, some not so helpful, but I feel anyone is mentally sound when they have the ability to change their belief system if they believe that some of their beliefs are unhelpful.

Take care

H&H xx

[portia guest]

I got the washing out and did some thinking. i thought:

what must it be like to be the mother of a 9-year-old boy in Congo, today, who knows that her son did such things as: shot people dead, cut off the noses and ears of adult woman?

If I was that mother, how would I explain those things to myself? How would my community explain those things to itself, collectively?

I might decide that my son was possessed by devils or demons. My community might decide that too and to spare his life, we can drive those demons out.

This is what happens.

Without other means of dealing with events (like access to western style medical care), are we to say that those mothers and communities are wrong in deciding to believe what they believe?

Do they have other choices? What people choose to believe is what they choose to believe. It doesn't make it 'real' but it makes it 'real' to them.

I have respect for other peoples' realities even if I don't share that reality with them.

I don't share their reality. I don't think that demons exist. However, I can't prove that and that isn't the point.

I am free to think whatever I want to. And so are they - unless it stops me thinking what I want to think. Then i have the right to fight to retain my freedom.  

[Sela]

Dear (((((((Write))))))))):

I don't see how I can continue to post here when people are posturing such nonsense

I hope you will keep posting and ignor what seems to make no sense to you.   You have lots of good stuff to offer and it would be a shame to see you stop posting because of an inflamatory topic and views that may seem caustic.  I hope you won't let that happen.

The more I think I know the more I realize how little I know.  I'm glad I don't know everything and I'm glad to know you, who knows to be kind when in doubt, even if it is only knowing you a little, like this in cyberland.

We all have the same luxury of choice.....of choosing to speak or to be silent.  I hope you will stick with your original choice and keep speaking here and not let the beliefs of others or their choice to voice them, influence you in a way that causes you to lose your voice and choose not to speak.  It's what you believe that matters to you.

What do you think, Write?   How much power are you willing to give the beliefs of others?  Enough to stop your voice from being heard?  I hope not.  I like your voice.  I like reading your posts.  I will miss you if you go.

Sela

[moonlight52]

dear write         i believe in the oneness of spirit,i do not believe in demons or witches .that is what i believe. that other thread scared me too.i do not want to say how much but a lot OK! so i understand your feelings . i then worked thur my fear.for me my heart is filled with light and love and that is my truth.
                                                    please do post ,your voice is needed.
                                                                moonlight

[Hop guest]

Hi Write,
Your post was beautiful, eloquent, and I can certainly understand why you had this passionate response. I can imagine that the "demonology" stuff is like scraping razors over the sanity and balance you've acquired.

Defending people's interest in posting about their spiritual beliefs is a core principle of mine. But that in no way means I "love" or agree with those assumptions. IOW, the "I have seen The Truth, I know What Reality Is, I will now Name It For You, and I will write with Absolutely No Room for Doubt or Questions."

For me, my challenge is to love and tolerate the speaker even if I dislike (as I do, in that case) a specific message. It would be a different matter if it were 3-D or if such a person was forcefully arguing in my face that I had to agree with them, or persistently repeating to me, in person, that their view of reality or experience was the only real one. In that case, I'd likely feel disrespected, or simply recognize that this person's beliefs made it essentially impossible for them to view me as their moral and human equal unless I capitulated to their definitions and dominance. In that case, I'd likely not seek out time with them, or simply withdraw.

I guess on a message board, we all have different thresholds of discomfort. I think posting what you did is a wonderful way to deal with it. Compassionate and passionate and not minimizing the intensity of your dislike for the topic, nor how it causes you, personally, pain to read. That may raise awareness in someone else, about how absolute beliefs or that sort of religiosity can be destructive to others. Or it may not. But it's tremendously valuable for you to express it. Thank you.

The way you described your perception of mental anguish and how those primitive (my opinion--no offense) labels for it are hurtful...or at least triggering...or repellent... I completely get it.

I am also sensitive to something Brigid said about the absolutist language of fundamentalism and its effect in the world. I believe that this is a worthy micro-example. Perhaps because of that, I am more determined than ever to try to stay in dialogue. But no one HAS to engage with a speaker or a topic, particularly if it's harmful or causing great distress.

Absolutist beliefs and statements that exclude the possibility that other convictions, such as yours, or mine, have equal value...are loud. Just in their meaning...they can drown out other human beings. ANY "This is THE Truth and the Only Truth There Is and it's Because I Say So--or even, Because This Book Says So" claim can do the same, in my view. The closed mind is painful to bounce against. And does drive people away. It takes a lot of strength to shield oneself from the hurt of implied rejection, dominance, and superiority of belief. (Saved-Unsaved, Believes-in-Demons/Rejects the Notion).

For that reason, such absolutes--other than love is IT--are not part of my own spiritual life.

Still, I'd far rather people were verbally and openly expressing those things, with me loving the speaker and holding my heart open to their humanness (no matter what their minds are directing them to pronounce)... than not talking about it.

I think it's when we retreat from each other, declaring the other to be "void" of worth because their belief statements repel us...that we get in trouble.

I think there's almost always common ground, sometimes between the lines, or just in our ordinary humanness. It's what I hope for, anyway.

My daughter's friend's father was just murdered in Iraq. He may have been a misguided peacemaker, but knowing what an extraordinarily gentle person he was, and how convicted of his beliefs...made the tragedy that his loving nature did not stop his killers' decision...even harder to take.

I don't know what the answers are. In person, I do feel that absolutists are a threat. Since here, there is no way to do physical harm, I just want to practice listening, without yielding my own sense or ability to think and be confident in my thoughts. Tolerance and goodwill have to start somewhere....

It's a discouraging, disquieting area for me, too.
I truly don't know what the answers are.

Hops

[mum]

((((((((((((Write))))))))))))))
I am at a loss for words and time right now....but we see things in a similar way.
There is love and light and God, uplifitng joy, as our essence, both collectively and individually..........and then there is seperation from that.. (fear, negativity, pain...downward spirals....).

That is ALL in my opinion.
We are aligned with spirit or we are not.  Names, labels, stories... all do not matter ....all either with or without spirit, in the end....
Thank you.

[write]

thank you for your kindness and feedback.

No, I am not afraid of making people angry. This topic makes me angry, and sad.

This is a support website not a religious debating club, but if it were merely a philosophical debate- then no, 'anything goes' or 'I respect everyone's individual beliefs whatever they are' isn't acceptable. That justifies most of the horrors of the world and people's bad behaviour already.

There have to be boundaries and outlines of what is generally acceptable in any group or society. Those boundaries are framed by culture, tradition, education, science, spiritual beliefs, and I would like to think good sense, tolerance and kindness.

When Christ cast out demons in the Bible that was the only known way of describing phenomenon like disability or mental illness. We know better.

For someone to state they can cast out demons in 2006, have been trained in it, makes me cross. If only one person in despair read that sort of nonsense and was lead to believe they were possessed, we should all be ashamed.

This is a supportive community. Many of us here have felt we were going crazy at times. If I was new here and that thread was one of the first things I read I would look no further.

Tolerance is the act of tolerating something not just a fashionable tenet of universal freedom. When something becomes abusive or potentially abusive that is the time to speak up and say no, I won't accept this just because of someone's individual freedoms.

Otherwise why not just accept our victim status with Nism and learn to tolerate that. Those Ns have rights and beliefs too!

[Hopalong]

I hear you, Write.
The thing is, I don't find anyone's claims about such topics to be insulting to me, or abusive to me.

I don't feel diminished or hurt by them. I do feel very sorry that a more rational and gentle spirituality isn't more popular.

The only thing that would concern me about what you suggest is making the assumption that anyone who professes such a belief is abusive. So far, I'm not picking up such vibes. To me, abuse is malicious or ignorant, or some combination. I have already had respectful discussions with people here whose ideas are very very different from mine. Or even, whose worldviews would "rule me out." Yet...I don't feel ruled out.

The other thing, and I'm not saying maybe it shouldn't be talked about...is I ask myself, what are the taboos? Are there taboos here? And, where is the line drawn about what we can or can't discuss, and when different thoughts and opinions are shelved as "debate"?

I think there are implicit agreements in a Voicelessness board. Like, if someone starting telling another poster they were "possessed"--as you say, I think the lot of us would rise up instantly to shield them and "drive out" (no pun intended) the self-anointed judge. 

I don't think that's happening here. I could be wrong and time will tell. (And I will eat humble pie, I promise!)

If it did, I'd change my tune. Free Speech is a heavy placard to hoist, sometimes, especially when you're defending the speech rights of someone with whom you disagree or whose thinking you find loathsome.

I think, for sure, that if someone were hateful or rcist or name-calling or threatening or sexually explicit, there would be reactions, too. "Demon" fancies have an ugly and violent edge to them. But there is a lot of drama in the human psyche...and a lot of ugliness in the world. Maybe "demon" has that same sort of edge, like name-calling or obscenity.

Still thinking, still thinking...my mind's open ...thanks for posting your thoughts too...

As with Ns, one can not engage, or not feed the thread...

(Is what you are talking about in general the vulnerability of people who have been mentally opened by various wounds or pain? Maybe that could be another thread, about what things people find they need to avoid, to stay balanced and feel positive in their trip toward wholeness?) I am sure I'm not stating your thoughts, just trying to sense the direction. I would like to hear more, anyway...

Hops

[mudpuppy]

As a person who has contributed to at least two threads that became quite contentious by calling for voluntary restraint in the subjects we approach I probably shouldn't stick my oar in here, but i will anyway.

There were two tenets to my other posts:
1. Consider steering clear of potentially disruptive subjects that are off the N topic, and
2. Whenever we do post try and be respectful of others.

Most people seemed to disagree with the first idea and agree with the second, but I don't think the first idea even applies here. ReallyMe was posting her beliefs concerning some people who display N behavior so it isn't actually off topic. People may disagree quite strongly with her theory but it is still on topic.

As i said earlier I am mostly persuaded that i was probably wrong to ask that off topic subjects be avoided. If the discussion remains respectful then what is the harm? If it doesn't remain respectful then the subject, whether off topic or on, doesn't much matter anyway.

I guess my problem with the thrust of this thread is it seems to depend completely on whose ox is being gored. I have seen numerous serious discussions of aligning chakras, astrology and various New Age approachs to dealing with Ns, and I have seen very little hostility directed at them. Now, a Christian, atheist, orthodox Jew or Muslim might be thoroughly offended by these ideas and consider them dangerous and harmful fairy tales, but they have been tolerated very well by the various people and faiths here. Why not the concept of Satan? Why is it OK to condemn someone who says that demons are real while the very same post says that the "spirit" exists. Are not both concepts equally dangerous fairy tales to an atheist?

Where is the line drawn? Either we stick strictly to a completely secular discussion that does not stray from the subject of voicelesness and Narcissisim or people are free to post their views on just about any subject as long as they aren't engaging in personal attacks.
I have been convinced by the good sense of people here that my call for voluntary avoidance of certain subjects was wrong, but at least it was a call for voluntary restraint, not a demand that we not tolerate such 'abusive or potentially abusive behavior'. I'm not even sure what 'potentially abusive behavior' is but who decides when it is being employed?
I don't think it is tolerant or helpful in the slightest to call someone else's beliefs nonsense or abusive just because we don't agree with them. Nor is it helpful to equate someone's right to state their general opinion on a subject with the immense damage done to people here by Ns. They are not equivalent whether the person is talking about demons, the Buddha or Gaia.

mud  

[Hopalong]

Mud,
Why didn't I say it half as well as that?
(And I presume I'm a thinker. Dang. Rustybrain.)
I think I'm occasionally a thinker but more often a muzzybrained Feeler...snorfing around like a trufflehunting pig, flipping words up and over trying to scent some information from the bits of peat that are stuck to them. Intention and tone matter so much more to me than literal content. They seem truer.

You are a wise man, to me an Elder.

Thank you,
Hops

[pennyplant]

Oh Hopsy,

Maybe you didn't say what Mud said, but you did say this:

I think I'm occasionally a thinker but more often a muzzybrained Feeler...snorfing around like a trufflehunting pig, flipping words up and over trying to scent some information from the bits of peat that are stuck to them. Intention and tone matter so much more to me than literal content. They seem truer.

Tee, hee, hee!  What a good little pig snorfing around. 

At some point during the demons thread I recall saying I thought it was a great thread.  It did begin in a startling way.  But then it evolved into something very thoughtful and I was happy to get some depth to what ReallyMe believes and where her ideas come from.  This was not an everyday conversation, not just small talk.  It seemed like those who participated said what they really thought and also listened to what others said.  I sure learned a lot.

This is a good thread, too.  Topics regarding spirituality really mean something to people.  None of the topics is mandatory, though.  For example, I have nothing to add to divorce threads and some of the other ones about legal issues.  And other ones besides the spirituality threads can be difficult depending on where you're coming from.  The Agreements thread is turning out to be hard for me, but hopefully I'll figure out what I think and what I'd like to say.  Any of us can do that at any time with any topic.

It took me a long time, most of my life so far in fact, to realize that disagreement doesn't mean the end of a relationship.  Even heated disagreement.  I didn't know people could come back together again after discovering things about each other that were different or after fighting or whatever.  Differences seemed like disasters to me.  I suppose that eventually some relationships can run their course if there is just too little in common any more.  But here on this board, we have something major in common.  That's something we can stick together on or at least come back to when necessary.

So, let's keep talking!!   

PP

[mum]

Mud, with all due respect,

I guess my problem with the thrust of this thread is it seems to depend completely on whose ox is being gored. I have seen numerous serious discussions of aligning chakras, astrology and various New Age approachs to dealing with Ns, and I have seen very little hostility directed at them.

I disagree with that, Mud, very much.
Is your ox being gored?

 I agree with Write that this is problematic and not just a harmless bout of opinions.  I see her point and I am not afraid of telling you and reallyME that this talk of demons IS FEAR and HATRED at it's core, and if you want to talk "demonic" this advertisement for the vile and uncontrollable as "TRUE" may well be being orchestrated by said demons....how's that!!!??  (Read the SCREWTAPE LETTERS if you want to get into it!)  IF they actually exist beyond our perception (um, nothing does, actually, IMO)...

How is this "real demon" talk getting us closer to God? How does this help HEAL on this board?

I also think it is a subject that may not be well understood enough to be dealt with in a healthy way by MANY people, not just those with histories of "mental illness".
And to focus on this seems NOT HELPFUL...and possibly HARMFUL.

I do not care a wit if you blast me for being "new agey". I am not attached to your opinion of me. However, I will always ask myself "am I helping? or am I hurting?"  when I post on this board.....and I see NO help at all being offered by
this "REAL DEMONS" talk. 

I do see that Write has a very well thought out opinion and that it is based on caring and kindness, not on WHO IS RIGHT.
I so appreciate that bravery, Write.

 

For someone to state they can cast out demons in 2006, have been trained in it, makes me cross. If only one person in despair read that sort of nonsense and was lead to believe they were possessed, we should all be ashamed.

Write said this, Really ME.
MUD: this (above) is the point that I think you neglected to acknowledge. This was the basic thought on this thread.

I not only can cast them out but I DO.  I have been trained in Cleveland, Tennesse through a Demonology course indeed.

Mud, how is the above quote any different than some "new agey" thing?  This whole "area" is a weird as it gets!! Talk about "alternative"!!!!!!! And just plain creepy and DARK. Not at all what I would feel comes from a loving intention.

ReallyME:
And I would ask you now:
HOW is your repeated mentions of your Demonology training HELPING here? How is it relevent?

What if I were to say: "I am clairvoyent and I see there is serious thick darkness here, masquerading as something no one can quite put their finger on.....but the person stirring this pot of tar is very pleased." ?

Would this mean I am posessed? Of knowing a thing or two? Mentally ill? New Agey?
Label away.....

[write]

Look, I will say it again and again if I have to. There is no such thing as a demon.
The fact we are even discussing it at all as something potentially real is offensive to me!

Freedom of speech is a concept. Try going around speaking whatever comes to your mind and see how far you get even in a society which upholds it as a worthy value.

The truth on this board is it has moved way away from Nism over recent months, and attracted more and more posts which seem inclined to stir one or more people up.

I would ignore this thread as I have many others if it were someone making mischief, or basically harmless as some of the religious and political threads have been- where people are merely disagreeing or trying to defend their position.

But in any mental health context use of concepts such as demons is harmful and dangerous- abusive in that there are people with strong views who can manipulate such concepts and it makes people who suffer mental illness feel that it is something imposed upon them, a form of wickedness and out of their control.

I would frankly say to anyone who wants to be mentally well- stay away from medieval occult imagery, why torment yourself or make yourself afraid?

But someone who suffers delusional illness ( and severe depression can cause psychosis ) MUST avoid such concepts and be firmly convinced in the ability of their rational mind to know what is real outside of themselves.

When people chatter about demons and demonology like we're talking rational sense here- I'm sorry, you crossed my boundary of tolerance and it's time for me to speak out.