There ARE no demons or devils. There are people and there is Spirit.

[portia guest]

Hop.....hear you. (((((Hops)))))

Moonlight. Lovely.

bean....
Ummmmm....loud voices...."you're wrong I'm right" "this is the truth".....hey everyone how about a giggle and a time-out? Let me amuse and entertain you with these side issues....maybe they seem funny but it's the only way I can be heard to make a serious point, or maybe it's the only I can get any attention......stop the noise.....and please don't patronise me or think this play isn't very very serious...please don't push me aside in your need to get on with your arguing...or worse...ignore me. I offer you a joke and food and you ignore me? That's going to feel bad. I have to decide if I'm up yet again against another brick wall. And decide to stop banging my head against it. Again.

I mean, this is hard work damn it! Time consuming! and I choose to do it does that make me nuts?

Mind you. Some walls I don't bother with. Big sturdy ones that don't throw their shadows over me. It's those where I think I see a chink of light coming through that I'll try with. Repetition compulsion anyone? I'll have two sugars with mine. I'm gone....

[mudpuppy]

Hi mum,

I'm none too sure I get your point. Either that or you didn't get mine.

I believe I understand pretty well what write is saying and the point of this thread. I have not contested her right to hold any opinion she chooses. I simply asked why it was not possible to grant others that same right. Who decided write gets to approve which opinions will be tolerated on this board?

Your question about whose ox is being gored makes my point for me. There is only one ox being gored. Buddhists, New Agers, astrologers, atheists etal have been perfectly free to post their opinions on dealing with Ns without a backlash, when people of goodwill I'm sure have found their opinions just as nonsensical and 'potentially abusive' as write finds the concept of demons. I have found many of the things said here over the last year to be not only wrong but occasionally silly and often leading people down a dead end road. But I did not engage in a crusade to declare their opinions dangerous nonsense, with the implication that anyone who believed such nonsense was a harmful ignoramous at best and possibly an intentionally abusive person. I didn't declare that in my tolerance I was no longer going to tolerate such opinions. The clear implication of stating that reallyme's posts cross a standard of tolerable behavior on this board is an attempt to silence her. Write has not confined herself to merely saying reallyme is wrong. She has attempted to shut her up. I find that more ironic on a 'voicelessness' board than a discussion of demons. Write is quite free to express her opinion in any manner she sees fit as long as she doesn't attack anyone personally. She is not free to stifle opinions she disagrees with. If we all took advantage of that 'freedom' the board would soon be closed down.

Quote
If the subject is of an eternal nature and my firmly held belief is that 'another path to God' is in fact a deception and is leading that person to hell then I have a moral obligation to tell that person my belief.

Mudpup: bringing this over from the other thread....because:
I see no difference in what you say (above) and why Write felt compelled to comment on the subject of demons. Her firmly held belief was stated with all the respect due and with no less moral obligation than what you state as a belief above.

So you can't see the difference between me saying I believe in this or that and I feel obligated to tell others my opinion and write's description of reallyme's opinion as fearful, abusive or misguided? You don't see a difference between me stating what I believe and write's description of reallyme's opinion as beyond what should be allowed on this board? Where in my quote did I denigrate anyone elses opinion or more importantly their right to say it? Write could very easily have said 'There are no demons' just as I said there is 'only one path to God' and no one would have had a problem. But she went on to say that those who say there are demons are fools or worse and should not be allowed to say such things on this board.

You went write one better by describing the belief in demons as 'HATRED'. Now that doesn't even make sense from a logical point of view. Many, many people over the year-plus I have been here have described Ns as just plain evil; evil incarnate. Some people have politely disagreed, others have agreed. But I don't remember anyone describing it as HATRED in capitol letters to call an N evil. So if reallyme ascribes the behavior of an N as not the Ns fault but the result of the influence of an outside agent how is she being any more hateful than a person who describes Ns as evil? Reallyme has even stated that Ns can change and should never be thought of as hopeless cases and yet she is described as engaging in HATRED. That's not logical, and to be frank its not very nice. I believe it is beneath you.

mud

PS. Quick question for bean.

reallyme wrote:

I don't really mind people getting upset about what I share

And you responded with:

Ouch,  that could be a problem with me.  Are you trying to make me upset then?  (said hypothetically, because I'm not, but I can see where others might be here, and this screams insensitive to me).

Earlier write wrote:

No, I am not afraid of making people angry.

Didn't this scream 'insensitive' also?

[write]

Do you think I have nothing better to do? I have had some interesting personal  observations on Nism this week, and here I am using my computer time amusing people who want to discuss demons and semantic philosophy.

Recovering our voices surely wasn't so we could be hurtful or play around with other people's feelings or muddy the waters on what is healthy?

As I have said- this is a recovery and mental health site.

Do you think a US or British doctor or psychiatrist or therapist who 'casts out demons' would be allowed to continue practising?

I have no problem with reallyMe or anyone else talking about their demon experiences within the context of a healthy discussion- eg as a mental disturbance or some experience they are trying to recover from.

But to bring it here as some kind of therepeutic tool and keep insisting it's legitimate.
That's not healthy. And the fact that no one challenged it and wondered how the person's mental health really is, that's not healthy either.

Am I attempting to shut anyone up?
I think I have made it clear what I am attempting- to state clearly and coherently as I can as a plain fact that demons do not exist.
You can continue to mock me or laugh at me or be annoyed or try to be right or whatever it is you're individually doing here.
I don't care about arguing or being right or wrong with an opinion. I believe spiritually people have to find their own way. In a healthy way.

People are people. Talk of demons frightens those who are suggestive, imaginative, already afraid etc.

I am just pointing out that people need not buy into that fear: demons do not exist.

I would point out the same if any 'Buddhist, New Ager, atheist et al' were making the claim.




PS.
And as for me being insensitive mudpuppy, that's just below the belt given my track record here. I was merely replying that I am not afraid of other people's anger in response to the question; there have been times I would be afraid to speak out and of making people angry, but not now.

However if I am to be part of any community nowadays it has to be healthy and I have a responsibility to speak up or move on if it's not.

As I stated when started the thread- if people think I am so off-beam with what seems reasonable and obvious to me then I will move on and leave you all to your demons.

[BJ]

I'm with Write about this wrong...some beliefs are personal--let's be more positive here. I'm not sure some will think this applies but I was reminded of this story and I wanted to share it here.

God's Baseball Game
Bob was caught up in the spirit when he and the Lord stood by to observe a baseball game. The Lord's team was playing Satan's team. The Lord's team was at bat, the score was tied at zero and it was the bottom of the 9th inning with two outs. They continued to watch as a batter stepped up to the plate whose name was Love. Love swung at the first pitch and hit a single, because Love never fails.

The next batter was Faith, who also got a single because Faith works with Love. The next batter up was named Godly Wisdom. Satan wound up and threw the first pitch. Godly Wisdom looked it over and let is pass because Godly Wisdom does not swing at Satan's pitches. Ball one. Three more pitches and Godly Wisdom walked, because Godly Wisdom never swings at Satan's throws.

The bases were loaded. The Lord then turned to Bob and Told him He was now going to bring in His star player. Up to the plate stepped Grace. Bob said he sure did not look like much! Satan's whole team relaxed when they saw Grace. Thinking he had won the game, Satan wound up and fired his first pitch. To the shock of everyone, Grace hit the ball harder than anyone had ever seen. But Satan was not worried; his center fielder, the Prince of the air, let very few get by. He went up for the ball, but it went right through his glove, hit him on the head and sent him crashing on the ground.

Then the ball continued over the fence for a home run!!! The Lord's team won. The Lord then asked Bob if he knew why Love, Faith, and Godly Wisdom could get on base but could not win the game? Bob answered that he did not know why. The Lord explained, "If your love, faith and wisdom had won the game you would think you had done it by yourself. Love, faith and wisdom will get you on base, but only My grace can get you home."
 
Let's all try have a little grace as we travel through life. A new twist on "Grace Unfolding".
BJ

[mudpuppy]

write,

I didn't say you are insensitive. I asked bean if she found your nearly identical comment to reallyme's as insensitive as she found reallyme's. I didn't find either statement particualarly insensitive.  

If you were merely stating your opinion that people need not buy into the fear of mythical demons then why did you state:

There have to be boundaries and outlines of what is generally acceptable in any group or society.

Tolerance is the act of tolerating something not just a fashionable tenet of universal freedom. When something becomes abusive or potentially abusive that is the time to speak up and say no, I won't accept this just because of someone's individual freedoms.

Freedom of speech is a concept. Try going around speaking whatever comes to your mind and see how far you get even in a society which upholds it as a worthy value.

I am very open to people's often very strange cultures.

Until it comes to a point of unhealthy belief and spreading fantastic fears- and on a site about mental wellbeing of all places.

The implication of each one of those statements seems to go beyond warning people of the nonsense of the concept of demons. It seems a pretty clear indication you think her ideas are too harmful to be expressed here and should be silenced. Or alternately, if it doesn't cease you will leave.

You can continue to mock me or laugh at me or be annoyed or try to be right or whatever it is you're individually doing here.

I'm not doing any of those things. I don't think you are being fair to reallyme and I am pointing out why I think that. I don't think any of us gets to appoint ourselves the arbiter of what is acceptable spirituality here and what isn't.

This subject seems to touch a personal chord for you, so I'll drop the subject for now. But as a general rule I don't think personal hot button issues should be extrapolated into a universal policy for everyone involved in a discussion.  
Take care.

mud

[write]

The implication of each one of those statements seems to go beyond warning people of the nonsense of the concept of demons. It seems a pretty clear indication you think her ideas are too harmful to be expressed here and should be silenced. Or alternately, if it doesn't cease you will leave.


Not that the person should be silenced ( -the person to my mind is in requirement of support, sympathy and considerable healing akin to having belonged to any cult, and I would certainly contribute positively to that if I can in any way- ) but that the views being stated and debated as fact are unacceptable and harmful in a mental health arena.

The leaving would of course be my personal choice. I do not intend for this board to become like some of my other life experiences when I have remained in the face of evidence that it was not a healthy situation, often swayed by some of the practical and linguistic arguments people are offering here.

I set my boundaries. I will not belong to any group which has retrograde, harmful or unacceptable beliefs and practices. And above all I am an advocate for mental health and wellbeing.

[reallyME]

Ah I need to really be careful here.  I realize every person has a bit of narcissistic tendency in them in general, and I know I have to be guarded about not appearing non-caring or insensitive due to my own flaws...

BEAN: hi reallyME,

I am curious, why you seem (my opinion) to be so obsessed with demons?  As far as I'm concerned, "demons" (since I really have no clue what they are--and no I don't Want to Know what they are) could be alcohlism, drug addiction, or any perceived human suffering/problem or condition --I also only have a vague sense of what these "really are" either.  To me, obsession with something equates to unfinished business.  So what's your unfinished business do you think?  Or do you totally disagree with me here?

 First of all, I answer questions of people who originally wanted to understand the information of my experience with deliverance ministry and devils and I'm asked "why you seem to be so obsessed with demons?"  I find this funny in a sort of "bait n switch" type of way...I was ASKED to share about my experience, so I did, and now I'm said to be OBSESSED for sharing.  

My "unfinished business?  again, laughing here...I'm not only delivered spiritually from devils myself, but I'm on meds for my own problems that happened to not be demonic, but neurologically-based...bipolar and adhd.  There is always unfinished something in life though, isn't there?  I'm sure I haven't arrived.

Ouch,  that could be a problem with me.  Are you trying to make me upset then?  (said hypothetically, because I'm not, but I can see where others might be here, and this screams insensitive to me).

MAKE you upset?  Nobody can MAKE anyone feel anything.  I'm not insensitive, I'm nonchalant and free in who I am and where I'm at on things.  I don't have a need to take other's views on as mine nor do I feel guilty about not doing so.  That's all.

~ReallyME

[moonlight52]

hi reallyme     i see you have no unfinished business with talking about demons great ,you say you have been delivered
from "devils" thats good . we all agree we own our feelings good. i guess the topic of demons is done for you as you say in your post above. because you have been delivered from them. maybe we can discuss bipolor (maybe here there is unfinished business?)and other topics we share on this board and how we learn to cope ,laugh and be
kind to each other. i am sure you are not obsessed with the topic of demons so maybe we just are done talking about demons?have i understood your post correctly?i do belive you belive in demons. why the need to discuss this futher?
God bless
moonlight

[reallyME]

moonlight:  hi reallyme     i see you have no unfinished business with talking about demons great ,you say you have been delivered
from devils thats good . we all agree we own our feelings good. i guess the topic of demons is done for you as you say in your post above.  maybe we can discuss bipolor and other topics we share on this board and how we learn to cope ,laugh and be
kind to each other. i am sure you are not obsessed with the topic of demons so maybe we just are done talking about demons?have i understood your post correctly?
God bless
moonlight

  And again I smile at this innocent-sounding post which I'm sure is indeed innocent, just by virtue of the one who posted it.

I will restate that it was not I who brought up the topic of "demons" as you all call them...I refer to them as Jesus does usually...devils.  I simply answered people's questions regaring my personal experience in deliverance ministry.  Am I done with the topic?  I don't know...are you all?  I enjoy talking about a myriad of things...I'm quite ecclectic really.

blessya

~ReallyME

[moonlight52]

hi reallyme i am done with the subject moon

[portia guest]

Write

would you do me the kindness and respond to me please?

I want to know who you are speaking on behalf of here.

Is it only yourself?

Or are you defending some other people who may be upset by this discussion?

I really need to know. If you are upset, I'd like to know.

If you are speaking as a matter of ethics or principle, that is different.

Thank you. Portia

[mudpuppy]

This is my last post on this subject (I hope),

bean,

no, I did not find write to be insensitive.

OK. Just wondering.

write,

Just for the record. The entire Christian church, from Eastern Orthodox through Roman Catholic on to virtually every Protestant denomination has for the last 2000 years held as a matter of theological doctrine the existence of spiritual beings known as angels and that some of these angels fell from grace and are at war with God. Literally billions of people, the vast majority of them suffering from no mental maladies, have believed this from then until now, including some of the greatest minds in the history of mankind.
To equate this belief to the brainwashing of a cult or mental illness does not seem too charitable to put it mildly. I mean you're not just dismissing reallyme or mudpuppy, you're dismissing as mentally ill or brainwashed automatons Jesus, Paul the apostle, JohnPaul II, Mother Theresa, Thomas Aquinas, Albert Schweitzer, Karl Barth, Isaac Newton, George Washington, CS Lewis, GK Chesterton, Saint Francis ad infinitum. Some cult.

mud

[mudpuppy]

bean,

It was mum who used the term 'hatred', not write.

mud

[reallyME]

The explanations in response to people's questions weren't what gave me the idea you were obsessed with demons, it was your explaining how you do this For a Living? 

exactly

or Hobby?

that would imply that helping someone get free is some sort of a game or enjoyable pasttime.  To me that would be cruel to call it that.

  I'm not sure if either of these are the correct words to use as 1) not sure you get paid to exorcise people

no, I don't.  It is a prayer time and inner healing time.


Just trying to explain myself there.  Obsession might have a bad implication, but it is something one does over and over and you do say you are still exorcising demons right?

ok, then consider me obsessed then.  I love "kickin the devil's butt" and seeing the change in people as they go from being bound and tormented to free indeed.

 Assume for a minute I think this is OK (I really have no thoughts whatsoever, good bad or ugly on this practice as again, I have no idea what it is nor do I want to know)-- you appear to derive self-esteem from it?

self-esteem?  not hardly.  The Bible says "in MY NAME (Jesus'), they shall cast out devils..."  I am doing what I'm designed by God to do, along with every believer and follower.  It's just something that's in the genes.

  You are "walking the walk" as you say.  Great.  How has this helped you, personally with your N?

Not sure if you asking me how has casting out devils helped me with N or what?  Deliverance is something that can only work with someone who wants to be free.  I don't impose my will on someone else, nor does God.

 

[write]

I can't reply to everything individually, but no I speak for myself and a long process of learning to be healthy, especially dealing with psychosis and bipolar mania.

Once certain ideas and imagery are allowed unchecked within any forum ( including the human brain! ) I feel they are unhealthy. I'm sure there are other concepts ( such as my neighbour being known as a witch ) but demons is one of those out-moded unpleasant ways to approach someone's problems. Casting out demons tells me more about the mental health of the person offering deliverance than the person they think is possessed.

For sound mental health people certainly need to explore spirituality and come to terms with what they find, even if it's nothing. But that does not mean a religious/thought free-for-all where all ideas and positions have equal merit. If there is harm in something- and instinct tells me there is considerable harm in introducing the concept of demons to people with mental health or other problems- then it's not right.


From the ancient teachings religious people have learned to have a certain interpretation of miracles and spiritual phenomenon which can still be relevant even when it is not literal or scientific. Angels is one of those phenomena.

Psychology and psychiatry are not exact sciences, may never be because of the individual nature of each patient. But there is a 'best-practice' approach where people can join together and say, ok this is acceptable, this is borderline, this is not. There is already within these fields a pretty broad consensus as to what constitutes and contributes to good mental health. A collective reality. Medics etc can be believers or atheists and still be part of this.

I also feel strongly that as a support group our response to someone posting here about their experiences of demons is not in good sound support.

People come to different forums for different things.

Very little happens entirely by accident, and I would suspect that if reallyMe reallyIs experiencing demons there would be a part of him/her crying out for some real emotional and psychological sustenance.

I don't know what form that needs to take, or what it is you really want here, but all I can say categorically is there are no demons, and people's human sufferings/alcoholism/addictions/mental illnesses are not cured by demonology or any other simplistic rituals.

Did you come here, reallyMe, because you want to hear someone say that out loud?