Trip report

[axa]

DEarest Hops,

For years when I was seperating from someone I really cared about I would pick a fight with them rather than feel the loss of them.  It took me a long time to figure this out.  Feeling anger for someone who is wounded is easier to experience than the pain of loss.  I could not hold the sense of the love of the other so each seperation seemed unconsiously as if it was like a death.  I had not internalised a good love object so when the other left physically it was as if they were gone for ever.  The pain of abandonment was too much to bear.

I hope this helps you in some way Hops.  If the other person did not matter there would not be a sense of abandonment.

with love,

axa

[Bella_French]

Dear Hops,

I haven't read the other responses, but the behaviour sounds familiar to me. I do not know if your D is N'ish or an N? I am so sorry that I do not know the history. But I wanted to say that her behaviour sounds almost identical, in tone and `flavor' to my last year with ex-N.

One example (I'll try to keep it brief) was our last Christmas holiday spent together. It was perfect, fun,  and peaceful, starting out with a Christmas dinner with his family (who I adored), a ton of affection and compliments from him, a beautiful Christmas gift,  and then 10 days of camping/ rock climbing with mutual friends, out in a beautiful rainforest setting. It was honestly the best time I've ever had holidaying, and the trip was loving, peaceful and fun. Even our friends, who knew we'd had troubles in the past, commented on just how well we suited each other, and what a `cute' couple we were.

On the last day, the friends left early, and he picked a fight with me as soon as they were gone. It reminded me so much of your daughter's behavior, I just had to mention it. It was a `nothing' fight, based on something so trivial I could have laughed (a stray leaf that had got into the boot of his car, lol). It esculated to a bunch of unwarranted and random insults, resulting in him breaking up with me (100 kms from civilization! ). I think he might have even meant to leave me there!

I read somewhere that this is what N's commonly do when they get close to someone. It arouses fear of abandonment, so they conduct a pre-emptive strike.

It sounds like your daughter preemptively-struck you, Hops. I am so sorry! I know it is the worst kind of pain, because it always comes after you feel close and even loved.

X Bella

[Hopalong]

Hi Bella,
My greatest fear is that my D is Nish. I try not to use the label because it's pure horror, and eliminates my ability to see beyond the term. And, when I succumb to fear and associate the label with her, I don't know if I'm seeing her fairly. I am afraid that my fear of Nism will make me unable to see her rageful moments in any other perspective. I don't want it to be true. And maybe it isn't. I just don't know. I think even if it were true I'd almost have to stay in denial about it. I don't think I could bear that reality. She is my only child. Only family.

Hi Axa,
Thank you. Knowing someone as good and fine as yourself has had the same pattern is a real comfort. I really appreciate your sharing that with me.

Thanks to you too, Poppy.

Hey Bean,
Thank you so much. You're right, I should listen to my heart...and keep listening to her. For now I don't see any reason to bring it up...I just wonder if she'll ever know how much she can hurt people who love her. How will she ever have a happy life if she can verbally bayonet people who love her so much? And kind of gratuitiously? But I am going to let it be. I need to keep my own peace. And I need to remember that love isn't about having all pretty posies all the time. Love is sometimes enduring the withering anger of someone you love. As long as I learn where to draw boundaries when she steps into abuse (and she did not do that this time), it'll be okay.

It was a good visit and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

love and thanks again,
Hops

[Bella_French]

Dear Hops,

I am so sorry; I hope I was not insensitive when I suggested the N thing. I will refrain from labels, if you prefer. You're right; it has the connotation of `unsolvable'  and i don't blame you one bit for not wanting to go there.

Speculation aside, I am sorry that things were good and then went bad so suddenly. I know how bad that feels when the relationship means so much to you.  Well at least most of the trip was good!

X Bella

[Hopalong]

Thanks (((((((Bella))))))))).
I appreciate your understanding, and no offense taken.

It's just...unfathomable, sometimes.

She has other sides. Very compassionate and patient.
Always kind to the unloveable, committed to ideals of
justice and a better world. She has a good heart.

She's just often not very kind to me.

love
Hops

[changing]

Hi Hoppy-

Your daughter is blessed with a Wise Woman for a mother, and you with a Snuggly Daughter! How beautiful! Oh, it would be wonderful to have infinite Snuggles and Wisdom, but then, when would you two get on with your own separate journeys? It might be hard to look like such a special person when one is still growing into one's own being. And it may be hard for such a nurturing and loving creature to let her beloved child loose in this often wicked world. But you are both learning how. I am so happy for you Hoppy (or is it Happy Hoppy?)

Izzy, do you have more talents ?!?!!!Ye gods woman! A composer as well... How eerie that the horse and knight in shining armour images crossed over like that. Your daughter is so very blessed to have you, and it seems that she knows it, though perhaps not what to do with it yet. My Dear Poetess- sometimes it is harder for those who see too well and feel so much- the raging wind that rasps the whitened bone and the slash of stinging salt water in the eyes (you remind me of the clean merciless truth and vision of Georgia O'Keefe in her stark and lonely paintings.)Izzy, you rock.

P.S. Collette certainly sounds like the late June Carter Cash!


Love ,

Changing

[Bella_French]

Thanks (((((((Bella))))))))).
I appreciate your understanding, and no offense taken.

It's just...unfathomable, sometimes.

She has other sides. Very compassionate and patient.
Always kind to the unloveable, committed to ideals of
justice and a better world. She has a good heart.

She's just often not very kind to me.
 
love
Hops

Dear Hops,

People seem to act their maddest around the people they are most comfortable with, and closest to, have you noticed?

I just can't see anything you could have done to prevent your D's behavior. But you did handle the situation well, I think. What else could you say or do? Something is going on for her, but at least its not 24/7.


X bella

X Bella

[axa]

Hops,

Your daughter sounds incredibly defensive to me.  Are you aware of a pattern of what happens before she lashs out at you?  What are the triggers, not that I am suggesting you change how you are and let her control your way of being but sometimes I do think the more we understand the less personal we take the arrows which are aimed at us.

axa

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Axa.
Well, the cuddling and closeness had built up...and being in church together is an old sweet memory of all the times she sat with me in church as a little girl. She never would go to Sunday School, she always wanted to sit (or stand, when we were singing) with me in the pew.

I think the church closeness suddenly triggered panic. She has had a very rough time becoming independent. Dropped out of college twice after her Dad's death, struggled and struggled to re-enroll and finish. Made some rough decisions, had some rough relationships. Used to call me with meltdowns. I think she's gotten some newfound stability and independence, and maybe feeling so close while I was there made her feel vulnerable.

She's also in a very macho field, and scoffs at weakness.

That's my best theory...she felt engulfed. Not my me, but by her own urge toward me.

I do feel better about it today, not ruminating so much. Wrote her a calm and friendly thank you for all the fun and sharing.

I love this young woman no matter who or what she is or becomes. And my job is still and always will be to try to be healthy and honorable myself, and steer my own course. I know I've made progress with that.

Much thanks to all of you, and thank you, Axa, for the good question....

love
Hops

[Ami]

Dear Hops,
  My general feeling about the N thing is that an N could not have a 90% good trip. Just a thought.
                                                                                           Love    Ami

[Hopalong]

Oh thank you Ami!
That's a wonderful thought.

Got a friendly call from D last night.
No reference to our last hour...but seems to me in itself that was her way of saying,
"I don't want to give up. I want to stay connected."

We are growing, I think.

love
Hops

[Ami]

Dear Hops,
  This is just "general " information-
   My H's  F was an N. My H has empathy,love and caring in him. He has just  learned "bad' behaviors ,but he did not know otherwise UNTIL I started changing.
  He was a prisoner in his "out of control" behaviors like I was a prisoner in my "compliant" behaviors.
My H needed   ME    to show HIM  the way. He simply did not KNOW  how to react differently than what he was taught in his FOO. However, the big thing with my H is that he is teachable.
  My H and I are treating each other with respect. We are careful to take back any "slight" that we "throw at the other(not meaning to).
  We both WANT to be connected, as you and your D do.
 That is an important key to "getting  over" past hurt   I think that your D wants to be connected to you as much as you want to be connected to her.
 The true N's are still rare. They are like  "Bulls in china shops". You really don't have to "wonder","Are they an N?(Right Bones?)
  It is obvious that they are.
 I think that you and your D will be like my H and me. We are working out the kinks---but they are workable.                                         Love    Ami


PS   Compost all or any that does not fit.

[Lupita]

Let us focus on the 90% good. It was a successful visit.

Can you share how was her childhood with you? Did she have a step father? How was she when she was a young child?

[Hopalong]

Thank you, Ami. Too hopeful to compost! And it does make sense.
I appreciate those thoughts a lot.

Thanks to you too Lupita. You're right, big majority good is still very good! I feel okay about it now, just had to process that tough farewell hour. Her call last night was more encouragement to keep my eye on the prize.

We were blissfully and overly close when she was young...right through the end of h.s. She never rebelled until her Dad's death when she was 19. As a little one, she endured my divorce from her father when she was 6, our move to another state when I chased a job (they stayed in touch and regular visits, but it wasn't the same as being in the same town), my remarriage --six years--to a jerk N who treated her like a competing sibling instead of acting like an adult, my divorce from him, her father's remarriage to a literally crazy woman with no boundaries and less common sense, his divorce from her, and his remarriage just before he died to a sane, good woman who's still in D's life.

D's crisis was her father's death. He was a very angry and chronically critical man and they had conflicts, and he neglected her, criticized when he did engage (sound familiar?), but he was reliable and consistent in other ways, and she did love him. They had a lot of unfinished buisness, his death was rapid, and she just went off the rails. Walked on the dark side for a while, went Goth, got tattoos, dropped out, etc and worse. So her determined re-enrolling and finishing on the Dean's List and now heading for grad school is a TRIUMPH.

I am very proud of her. (As a little one, she was so sweet I used to tell her I'd have to send her to "bad school because she had no idea how to be bad. She loved that. One maaaaaaajor influence was her extended and regular time with my mother, the family N. If only I'd realized...but that was not good for her.)

love
Hops

[Lupita]

Then she has very good reasons to feel resentful. She probably is balming you for everything. As I do with my mother. She does not know that you were a victim of life too.

She seems to have had a great portion of the supper of suffering. But it also seems that your relationship is not too bad. Given all the bad events in her life, your relationship is not that bad.

I had four step fathers and the last one is my age. They really competed with me. I did not hate them but I hated the sircumsnatces in which my mother always took my step father side.

I am very sorry for all the bad experiences that your D had. But you are such a great person, that I am positive that you will work them out. I remember a visit you mentioned eight months ago, around January. She was really disrespectful to you.

Puting her head on your shoulder is a very significative event. 100% improvement. The fight before you left is not a bad sign. Probably she did not want you to leave.