Job Advise

[mighty mouse]

Kelly,

I had a sense of entitlement too. It got me into a lot of trouble. And I didn't grow up in a family with a lot of money. But like you, I felt that I had been denied the love, support and direction and attention I needed. Maybe that's because I am one of 8 kids. Maybe my Mom didn't have it to give (she still doesn't btw). I felt I had been screwed and essentially I was.

But once you become an adult it is up to you to make things right. You now have the control if you want it. Even though I can see that maybe you think some of us are being harsh, I sometimes think the "cruel to be kind" notion is better heeded. Sometimes you have to move off the dime.
But you have to "get it" first. Maybe some of it is starting to sink in.

In any case dear Kelly, good luck to you. Most of us here have had a long road of it, so it will take time. Just remember that every day you make little decisions that get you closer to being an adult will be giant steps forward.

Your fellow adult in the making.

MM

[Lizbeth as Guest]

Sorry, Kelly, that I'm not as gentle and as diplomatic as Bunny, everone has their own style.  But what I say is said with kindness and a sincere effort to help.  You are becoming quite insightful and I commend your ability to read even the difficult messages and not become offended.  I do understand why you feel the way you do.  None of us here at it easy as children, so we do know why you are the way you are.  But once you know, then you have to do something about it.  And it seems like you are willing to do so.  Many will just turn away and keep on the same path, then reach the ends of their lives and still be miserable because they did not use the gift of SELF AWARENESS that they obtained through whatever means (a board like this, therapy, books, whatever) the way it should be used---to change your life to be what you want it to be.

Believe me. life goes too fast, it is over too quickly to keep dragging ones feet.  Blaming your parents is OK as long as it doesn't do what it did to my ex-husband, give him an excuse to keep on behaving like a child instead of the grown up he could have been.

Lizbeth

Boy, you guys can smack me upside the head!!  (I know, I know, I need it sometimes so I am NOT being defensive!!!)  Wow!  That smarts.

Except for Bunny.  Bunny I think you have a more realistic approach.  I have been a runner all my life.  If something gets a little too difficult to deal with, bam, off I go.  Getting a new job.  Marrying a man after only knowing him six months.  I am not a patient person and am known for my "knee jerk" reactions to stress, advise, conflict.  I used to go to counseling and couldn't get out of the session fast enough to put into place what we had talked about.  (Seems like I got that one from Nmom - she calls emergency meetings because she wants things to happen now - instead of waiting until next week.)

And the sense of "entitlement?"  Imagine living in a home where you wanted for nothing.  Then you grow up and have to struggle.  And you know your parents have plenty of money.  And your parents neglected you when you were a child and didn't give you the tools to make a plan, and work the plan.  So then you wake up one morning and your life is a mess and part of the fault lies at your neglectful, prideful parents' feet.  My brother said it well.  He said, "After all the crap my mother put us through, she owes us!"  So maybe I need to erase this sense of "entitlement."  Maybe we (my brother and I) have to realize that when my mother dies, and the will is read, it might be just like Joan Crawfords.  We may not get a dime.  So why do we live life like we will??

So I am trying to get it through my fat head that I will be happier if I just do what I need to do.  Be nice to my mother.  Go to counseling (even if mother pays for it) and get on with my life!!  I need to make a plan and work the plan!!  Have a birthday that ends in a 5 next week.  Maybe that can kind of be a milestone - a half way mark (if I make it to 90, and I should since my gram is 89 and going strong and her mom made it to her 90s...............)

Thanks for your input, and thanks, Bunny for your gentleness!  Kell

[Anonymous]

Lizbeth.  I hear you, too.  All the advise from MM and Lizbeth and Bunny and Ellie and Portia, etc. etc. goes into the pot to analyze and examine.  But I believe it was Bunny who said, stay where I am and learn to draw boundaries.  Probably a better idea than to run to a lower paying job and not have the flexibility, just to prove a point.  The point is, to treat my mother at work as I would treat any employer (even though we are partners and she is not technically my employer - she just has more money invested because of bad business decisions that she made (with my help sometimes .)  I also need to learn (through therapy) how to act and not react when she clearly pushes my buttons.  And I also have to lay some cards out on the table and push her to commit to whatever it is that we decide upon - in all areas.  Boundaries.  Communication.  And yes, money for children's college.  If she tells me she will give each kid $1000 or $10,000 or whatever, at least I'll know what I (and my children) need to come up with to pay for college.  It's not that I want her to pay for the whole thing, I just don't want to assume anything!!  

My ninth grade teacher wrote ASSUME on the board and circled ASS and then U and then ME.  He said whenever you assume you make an ass out of you and me!  I'll never forget that way back in 1975.............at that time I considered ASS a cuss word so it shocked me a bit.  (Remember I was raised with a "we don't drink, we don't smoke and we don't CUSS" mentality.....................?)

So all I want to know are her intentions.  I'm going to tell her that.  I am going to tell her that I don't expect a thing from her - nothing.  I'm not going to beg or ASSUME!!  But I would like to know if she has plans so I can make additional plans..........is that so bad?

I mean, a part of me wants to take a job in another city - get transferred with my husband.  It would be good for me.  But.  Would it be good for my children?  My oldest is a senior.  If I moved she'd move in with, (guess who?) my mom!  The next is in 8th grade and loves her friends, cheerleading etc.  The third is special needs and is a very good situation in her school.  So to leave now is not a good idea.  When they are grown in 10 years?  Maybe.  But hopefully by then my mom and I will be ok.  Although I am not holding my breath because I think she might be getting Alzheimer's and that will make it worse, I'm afraid.

Ramble ramble ramble..Kell

[bunny]

So all I want to know are her intentions.  I'm going to tell her that.  I am going to tell her that I don't expect a thing from her - nothing.  I'm not going to beg or ASSUME!!  But I would like to know if she has plans so I can make additional plans..........is that so bad?

It isn't bad (wrong) but I wouldn't recommend it. Here's why:

(1) She may not have any idea what her intentions are. And she may not like the question, feel attacked, get defensive/angry, and lose it.

(2) Her intentions probably change on an hourly basis.

(3) Adults can't make reasonable decisions based on someone else's intentions. Especially an N who has early-stage Alzheimers. Her intentions are irrelevant in this situation.

keep up the good work,

bunny

[lizbeth as Guest]

bunny, was going to add my own reply, but yours was so good, I'm just going to say Ditto.  I agree completely with you.  You cannot make your plans based on the intentions of another person, that part I agree with 1,000%.

Lizbeth

So all I want to know are her intentions.  I'm going to tell her that.  I am going to tell her that I don't expect a thing from her - nothing.  I'm not going to beg or ASSUME!!  But I would like to know if she has plans so I can make additional plans..........is that so bad?

It isn't bad (wrong) but I wouldn't recommend it. Here's why:

(1) She may not have any idea what her intentions are. And she may not like the question, feel attacked, get defensive/angry, and lose it.

(2) Her intentions probably change on an hourly basis.

(3) Adults can't make reasonable decisions based on someone else's intentions. Especially an N who has early-stage Alzheimers. Her intentions are irrelevant in this situation.

keep up the good work,

bunny

[Anonymous]

OK, you are right there.  We did a job performance evaluation with one of our key employees and she reminded my mom that if she could save us some money in one area, we would add that much back into her salary.  Well, of course my mom didn't recall saying that so I told the gal that next time she should get it in writing because my mom tends to "forget" what she said.  So I guess I could have my mom sign something - and that would go over like a ton of bricks.  You are right there, too, she will probably feel put on the spot, etc.

[flower]

(((Kelly)))

[mighty mouse]

Kelly,

You are certainly getting a lot of feedback from this board and I think it's because you have been so interactive. And I must say you have been pretty good about not taking stuff too personally as well. That helps a lot.

I just wanted to recommend a book to you that was helpful to me. I actually got it recommended to me by Dr. Grossman. It's called "The Narcissistic Family". It's authored by Donald and Stephanie Pressman. It's kind of expensive (maybe $36.00 or so). Maybe because it's written for therapists.

The reason I thought of this for you is that I was wondering what role your Dad has/had in any of this. Of course I don't know if he's still living and would only care for comment if you wished it.

The book is excellent though.

MM

[Anonymous]

Speaking of voicelessness - my dad is screaming to be heard all the time and is shut down time and again by my mom.

It started innocently enough.  Dad was in the service and was stationed near where my mom grew up.  He retired over 30 years ago and hasn't had to work since my mom's business was exploding simultaneously to his retirement.  She has been a controlling workaholic and she basically won't let him speak.  I allow him to unload on me.........he's always frustrated about the way my mom is always working, or volunteering or traveling or trying to "save" people..............mom won't even let him buy a new car.........he has to drive his until the wheels drop off of it.  He gets retirement from the military and could easily afford a payment on a new car, but mom won't let him.  He feels for me but won't go against my mom's wishes.  The only thing he fights for my brother and I on is my mom's house that she grew up in.  It's in the mountains and quite nice and everyone in the entire family wants it - my dad wants my brother and I to get it.  The family thinks she might give it to her siblings...........I think my dad will pass before my mom.  I keep begging her to retire and spend what time he has left with him.....but her window of opportunity to travel and have a good time with him has past.  He has diabetes and heart problems and can barely walk.  Meanwhile she won't slow down.  You might have heard earlier in this thread that she used spending time with my dad as a lie to go get a facelift and in effect forced herself to semi-retire, unless she be found out as a liar.

When I was a kid my dad was a strict disciplinarian.  Very military like...but not evil.  I always feared my mom and her disapproval more than I did his belt and spankings.  When I was a young teenager he used to take me out to dinner every night when my mom was gone for her job.  He was always good for a $20 bill, a new car and dinner.

Feel sorry for him.  He was emasculated many years ago.  He is expected to keep the house clean but can barely walk.  He spends a lot of time frequenting restaurants where they treat him like a king (I'll bet he tips REALLY well........)  He watches sports almost 24/7.  He has no say in any financial things.  They pretty much run in different orbits.  About the only thing they do together on a regular basis is go to church.

And yes, I don't take this stuff personally.  I want and need all the input I can get and I figure this is free where a stuff-shirt counselor will charge lots of money.  Gonna buy that book.................I need to know all I can about N.  Want to call into Dr. Laura's show and see how she reacts to me.  I'm sure based on most of her call ins that she will think I'm a whiner and blast me----unless I can convince her that mom is indeed Narcisistic...........
Kelly

[bunny]

I allow him to unload on me.........he's always frustrated about the way my mom is always working, or volunteering or traveling or trying to "save" people..............

Boundary problem. He should not be lamenting about his wife/marriage to you. You aren't the appropriate person to hear it. It seems there are very weak boundaries in this family.

When I was a kid my dad was a strict disciplinarian.  Very military like...but not evil.  I always feared my mom and her disapproval more than I did his belt and spankings.  When I was a young teenager he used to take me out to dinner every night when my mom was gone for her job.  He was always good for a $20 bill, a new car and dinner.

Your father seems to veer between being harshly punitive and paying for love. He seems to have problems and I'm sorry.

I want and need all the input I can get and I figure this is free where a stuff-shirt counselor will charge lots of money.

This board isn't going to give you what a therapist can. It's only a bunch of opinions. It seems you want everything for free but therapy cannot be free. When you're getting something for free, you get what you pay for. Maybe someday you will be so desperate that you will actually make the investment in yourself.

Want to call into Dr. Laura's show and see how she reacts to me.  I'm sure based on most of her call ins that she will think I'm a whiner and blast me----unless I can convince her that mom is indeed Narcisistic...........

You think you'll convince Dr. Laura that your mother should give you money and free things? I'm afraid you will be blasted. And anyway Dr. Laura can't help you. That's another free service that isn't going to cut it.

I know this is very hard. I think the idea of seeing a therapist is so painful that you will do anything to avoid it. That is the very reason you probably need to see one.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Ok, Bunny, you are supposed to be the nice one!

Don't have a problem with my dad.  It's weird.  He was very punitive in my early years but he doesn't bother me.  We get along just fine.

And the boundary issue.  A very big one!!  A VERY BIG ONE!!  It has really been (and is) a problem over the years.

And do I not want to see a therapist?  No, I DO want to see a therapist.  I have already spent hours on a couch and have become aware of the dynamics for probably over ten years.  It wasn't until recently (the last five or so) that I have realized that it isn't necessarily poor Kelly, she needs fixing.  It is Patient X - Nmom - who is and was the problem.  She fed the whole dysfunctional family thing for so many years.  And to this day she really doesn't have a clue (I don't think) that she's the one with the problem.  And as long as she is who she is, she will never admit to being the one with the problem.

We have this one aunt who absolutely can't stand my Nmom, and of course we all think SHE has the problem because she can't stand to be in the same room with mom.  So she rather theatrically stands up and storms out.  Then we all go, "Look at her, what's HER problem?"  Well it seems she's the only one yelling "The emperor has no clothes!"

Oh, and the free advise and Dr. Laura thing.  Since you don't know me you probably haven't caught on yet that I am a bit sarcastic  - no A LOT sarcastic.  And do you think I would call into Dr. Laura and ask her to endorse me taking lots of money from my mother?  She would blast me.  No I would ask her about her knowledge of narcissism and how a 45 year old woman should go about setting boundaries - especially if we work together.  And I'll bet Dr. Laura would say don't work together.  And when my Nmom and I went to counseling about three years ago the counselor told me to not work with my mom and that is when I went to the other job temporarily.

So no, all is not what it seems.  Forgive me for being a bit negative and sarcastic.

Kell

[Anonymous]

Kell,

I think your former therapist made a big mistake in advising you not to work for your mother. Any Tom, Dick or Harry can tell you not to work for your mother. Who'd pay for that advice? Your former therapist sounds a bit lame to me.

Your mother is an extremely impaired, dysfunctional person but she is not the problem. The problem is how you relate to her. A good therapist would work with you on that. And the therapist would have to understand that you are not interested in working on it until you've expressed a lot of anger at the situation you've gotten into. It may be a year or more of anger before anything else happened. A good therapist would be patient and not start making decisions for you.

You're right, I didn't catch on to the sarcasm about Dr Laura. I'm a bit dense sometimes.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Well, I posted a reply and Poooffff!  First time that happened to me.

I have been to a couple of therapists.  Actually, like four.  The first gal introduced me to the concept of codependency.  My husband and I had some major problems so that took precedence over any personal stuff.  The we went to another guy for marriage counseling.  As long as we continued counseling, the marriage was ok.  The minute we discontinued it things got bad again.  Finally he stopped going, I went and decided on divorce.

Then my mom and I went to a guy that we both know.  She stopped that because she didn't want him to know our personal stuff.  So we went to the other guy.  I think my mom went with me for moral support.  She didn't think she needed any counseling - only poor, misguided and screwed up Kelly.  I think it was a quick fix - more like a band-aid than real therapy.  Based on the few sessions he concluded that I didn't like my mom much and would probably be happier not working with her day in and day out.  Why do you think that is so bad, Bunny?

Is there some reason you feel I should stay other than good pay and flexibility?  The way I react to her is a big issue.  I am so hypersensitive to anything she says, I don't think she feels real safe around me - I let her have it at the drop of a hat.  But that was after years and years of stuffing my anger.  It is almost like I cannot NOT blow up when I'm around her.  She really drives me crazy.  And so many people have said to me that she will never change..........that is the part that scares me.  That we will live the next twenty years in "walking on eggshells" mode.  How can she want that?  Why does she want me to stay so bad when she doesn't trust me?  And I don't trust her.  It's like I am holding my breath when I am around her waiting for some little thing to throw me over the deep end.

I would think she would be happy for me to be gone.  But her real feeling is that she doesn't want all the responsibility for the business.  She's nearly 70 and wants me to take it over (yes, that's what she says....)  We originally bought the business as a source of income for my husband and I..but then she took over.  So now why does it scare her that I might leave.  Is it that she will lose control over me.  Or the fear of the unknown?  Or does she really realize that she doesn't have a clue and that she needs me to make her look good (remember I told you that she will ask me things, then use them as her own quotes....................she's on boards but has me jot down a few thoughts before she goes.....)

The money thing aside.  If I never take another penny from her.  Why do you think I should stay, Bunny?

Kelly

[bunny]

Based on the few sessions he concluded that I didn't like my mom much and would probably be happier not working with her day in and day out.  Why do you think that is so bad, Bunny?

Here is what I see as his mistake:

It's easy to quickly conclude that you'd be happier not working for your mother because you present it that way. A therapist needs to take more time to reflect on the situation. He shouldn't take people's words at face value. If he dispenses easy advice, does he deserve $100/hour? I don't think so. He colluded with your idea (and your mom's) that there is a "quick and easy" solution to this situation. He didn't analyze the complications or look at unconscious agendas and motives. This makes him lame in my view.

Is there some reason you feel I should stay other than good pay and flexibility?  The way I react to her is a big issue.  I am so hypersensitive to anything she says, I don't think she feels real safe around me - I let her have it at the drop of a hat.  But that was after years and years of stuffing my anger.  It is almost like I cannot NOT blow up when I'm around her.  She really drives me crazy.  And so many people have said to me that she will never change..........that is the part that scares me.  That we will live the next twenty years in "walking on eggshells" mode.  How can she want that?  Why does she want me to stay so bad when she doesn't trust me?  And I don't trust her.  It's like I am holding my breath when I am around her waiting for some little thing to throw me over the deep end.

She does not think logically or rationally. She can tolerate your losing your temper. She knows you'll get over it. Actually you are dealing with a semi-irrational person. And you are also behaving less rationally because you don't have the skills to deal with her.

The reasons I think you might stay at this job are that (a) it's a good job; (b) you might choose another job that's even worse which will give you an excuse to return to this job anyway; (c) this job may be improvable if you get enough therapy to detach emotionally from your mother. Then she won't bother you that much.

You want to read your mother's mind. I can tell you that she is not thinking anything logical, useful, reasonable. It's all a bunch of crap. There is nothing useful to be found in pondering her mind. There is a lot more interesting stuff going on in your mind.

bunny

[mighty mouse]

Kelly,

You've never mentioned whether this company you work at with your mom is work that you like. I've only heard mention of pay and flexibility. So do you like the work and do you feel like the company is sustainable since you say it's not making money?

And if you pared down your personal expenses would you be able to take part time employment? That way you would have less expense and still have flexibility.

I have a different view of therapy. I have been to several and I find that most have their own particular schtick that only takes you so far. I did get a few nuggets of information. But I have to say I've done better on my own with a few recommendations of books, research and such. It does require real concerted effort but has ultimately been better for me. That's my own personal journey and maybe therapy does help other people. It just wasn't all that great for me.

MM