Can therapy do more harm than good?

[JustKathy]

Reject if it does not fit.

You're right. You're TOTALLY right. Yes, I was trained to follow orders and never question my gut instincts, but every time I've gone with my gut, I've been right.

My father called this morning to wish hubby a happy birthday, and said that M is doing so well that no one can tell she is sick, and that she was going to do some things today with my sister. That's when I realized that as long as she is of sound mind, she will use it to her advantage to get to me. And she WILL use my sister as an unwitting accomplice. M will be able to die happy if she knows that she hurt me, and turned the entire family against me (even more than she already has). She's going to work towards that goal as long as she remains lucid, so I have to be aware of that and NOT let my guard down.

Thanks again for your help.  

[JustKathy]

LOL. The smileys on this board sure are creepy looking.

[Saraa]

Hi Kathy:

In reading this thread, IMO, your therapist was out of line in giving you specific instructions on how to interact with your sister.

It is my understanding that a job of a good therapist is to help the patient find their own solution.  They do this by facilitating the thought process so that the patient can sort through their own feelings and emotions and hopefully arrive at a conclusion.

IMO, dictating what you should do sounds like a narcissistic trait.  Some doctors are into power tripping.  IMO, it's not healthy.

[Ami]

I am so glad you benefitted from my post.It is so hard to follow your heart.I am struggling SO hard to trust myself.It is HELL trying to recover fron my N parents erasing of my sense of self.
 I can tell you understand ((((Kathy)))).    Love Ami

[JustKathy]

It is my understanding that a job of a good therapist is to help the patient find their own solution.

That was really perfectly said. Yes, that's what I want my therapist to do. Be a sounding board, offer me guidance, but not tell me specifically what to do. I think it's especially wrong when the therapist only knows a very small amount of a 40 year history of abuse. She doesn't know the people involved beyond what I've told her, so to say that I have to take care of my father because he was the lesser of two evils . . . what? In the past, she has also doubted things that I knew in my heart to be true. For example, I told her a few years ago that I KNEW in my heart that my brother, the golden child, would be sole heir of their will and that I would be excluded. She told me there was NO WAY that my father would do that to me. Well guess what? He did. I just found out this week that I was right. I WAS excluded from the will. T should have never drawn that conclusion.

I'm going to see her again next week, and I guess this will be the final test for me, if she's going to end up making a really painful situation even worse.

I got another letter from my sister today and I'm sitting here in tears, totally confused, and not knowing how to respond. I'm going to have to lean on my therapist for guidance, and if I feel that she's leading me astray, not go back. I'm going to take hubby with me for a second set of ears, because at this point, I'm so hysterical, I may not hear everything correctly. This letter I got today . . . I don't know if it's sincere on S's part or if the whole thing was orchestrated, but my gut instinct is that S is being used as a tool. She went on at length (again) about how my father had to take my brother out to lunch and break the news to him that the will had been changed to an EQUAL split between the three children. Not that he was being shut out, but having to SHARE with his sisters (as it should have been all along) because they don't want 100% of their money falling into the hands of his crazy wife. I'm supposed to be choked up and grateful that I've been added to the will, not because they love me, but out of retaliation towards my SIL.

She also sent me 1/2 of M's jewelry. Included with the jewelry were photographs of everything, and an inventory list as "proof" that I was receiving my fair share (and we're talking maybe $100 worth of stuff here). There's no way that was S's idea. This is M guilting me. Part of the ramped up smear campaign. She's no doubt telling everyone that I'm selfish and greedy, hence the need for proof. In all honesty, I don't even want the stuff. I wanted her love, not her d@mn jewelry.

S also sent me a bunch of family photos, since I haven't seen them in so long. Yeah, like I want a photo of my brother, who has never wanted anything to do with me, with the exception of Christmas day, when he got gifts out of me. My S has NEVER sent me family photos, so again, I say I'm being played. I think S is also being played. She's a trained puppy, and probably doing what's she's been told. If my therapist tells me otherwise, or gives specific instructions on how to respond, I will seriously question her abilities as a counselor. I could sense some personal frustration in S's letter, so I know she's confused and conflicted. She's probably equally frustrated about some things, like finding out that she was executor of the will, but receiving no money. BUT her need to obey M is too strong and overrides her personal feelings. So, even sensing her conflicted feelings, I have to try and resist opening up to her prematurely. The smarter half of me knows that she is too deep under M's control and will report back everything I say, so I have to put up a shield and protect myself.

I'm sorry to be venting like crazy here, but if I don't vent, I'm going to explode. I know this is going to start getting worse and worse. If M doesn't get the desired response from me, she's going to kick it up a notch and start sending letters to hubby instead. He's already told me that if he receives any letters from M, that they won't be opened until after she's gone. This is SICK. She's using her death as a weapon. Rather than make productive use of her remaining time, she's going to waste it trying to stick it to me. She'll be able to die happy if she knows that she's hurt me, so I have to be VERY careful in how I respond to calls and letters from both S and my dad.

God, I could just SCREAM.

[Hopalong]

I love the idea of not opening the letters...

is that something you can do?

Courage,

Hops

[JustKathy]

If it were up to me, I'd open the letters. I don't have the strength to set them aside and not know what's inside. But my husband can do it. He's not being hurt by my mother the way I am, so if he says he'll hide them until after she's gone, he'll do it.

I'm certain that the letters are coming because she has sent him emails in the past when her emails to me didn't have their intended effect. She would send emails trying to push my buttons, and when I didn't reply, she'd email him with a sad story about how I had abandoned her, and try to turn him against me. So we've both seen it before. It's coming, I just know it is.

Kathy

[Ami]

Dear Kathy
 Do you know of Alice Miller? I can only understand her ideas  gradually. When I do grasp them, they bring deep  healing.
 She says that the N parent does not mirror us so we don't trust in a solid sense of our own self. We flounder.We do not feel definite and confident of our feelings and ideas.
 I think a good therapist would help you find YOU.If your therapy is taking you AWAY from you, it could not be good.
 Alice would tell you to keep mining for your own authentic feelings. Then,muster up all your courage and trust yourself not someone else even if they are an authority i.e. therapist, parent.
 I am trying to do this in my life and it is very painful  but I do feel a more solid self so I must be on the right track.
 I am  glad you are on the board, Kathy. You add so much!       Love to you,  Ami
 

[Saraa]

JustKathy link=topic=8789.msg139511#msg139511 date=1247181331]

 In the past, she has also doubted things that I knew in my heart to be true. For example, I told her a few years ago that I KNEW in my heart that my brother, the golden child, would be sole heir of their will and that I would be excluded. She told me there was NO WAY that my father would do that to me. Well guess what? He did. I just found out this week that I was right. I WAS excluded from the will. T should have never drawn that conclusion.

I agree.  Using money as a manipulative tool and excluding children from a will is a very common tactic of a pathological narcissist and a few other PDs.

 

There's no way that was S's idea. This is M guilting me. Part of the ramped up smear campaign. She's no doubt telling everyone that I'm selfish and greedy, hence the need for proof. In all honesty, I don't even want the stuff. I wanted her love, not her d@mn jewelry.

]S also sent me a bunch of family photos, since I haven't seen them in so long. Yeah, like I want a photo of my brother, who has never wanted anything to do with me, with the exception of Christmas day, when he got gifts out of me. My S has NEVER sent me family photos, so again, I say I'm being played. I think S is also being played. She's a trained puppy,

This also sounds familiar to me.  Trust your gut, Kathy.

This is SICK. She's using her death as a weapon.

That seems to be another common tactic associated with several PDs.

 I am sorry you are going through this.  You have the right to exert your individuality and to be your own person.  No one should even desire to take that right away from anyone.

[JustKathy]

I agree.  Using money as a manipulative tool and excluding children from a will is a very common tactic of a pathological narcissist and a few other PDs.

Something occurred to hubby last night, and I think he’s right. He thinks that all this business with the will might be aimed at manipulating my brother, more so than hurting me. Ever since my brother married his N wife, M has been on a mission to eliminate her. I really think my brother’s wife (who is an absolute N monster), managed to usurp my position as #1 target of M’s darts.

We’ve been hearing non-stop about this business with the will, and stories of how my father had to take brother out to lunch, and have this sad father-son talk, and tell him that the will was being re-written because of his N wife, etc. It doesn’t make sense to me, because as long as my father is alive, the will is moot. It has nothing to do with M’s death, or does it?

Last night hubby mentioned that my father said something to him on the phone, to the effect that brother “knows that he can still make his mother happy before she dies.” OMG. Could it be that my brother has been given an ultimatum? Dump the N wife, and get re-instated in the will? M would do this. She absolutely would. If she could have one dying wish, I KNOW it would be to get rid of her DIL. And she’ll probably succeed, because my brother loves, in order of importance, 1) Money, 2) Mom, 3) Wife. My father probably took him out (on M’s orders) and told him that M was crying, and was going to die with a broken heart, and guilt guilt yada yada.

Oh geez, I won’t be at all surprised if the next call I get isn’t my father joyfully announcing that my brother is getting a divorce. I’d certainly be happy to see this witch go, though not under these circumstances. M’s manipulations have always been so cruel, and so vile. I do believe hubby is right – this would be a tremendous victory for her.

Ami, I’m not familiar with Alice Miller but will look her up. I like to read as many different authors as possible. Even though each may have different theories, I find it quite interesting that most experts agree that the traits of N’s are similar very identifiable. That helps me a lot, to read many books, where all are saying, yes, ALL N’s do this. It comforts me to know that I’m not alone, though saddens me to know how many of us have suffered. Apparently, the numbers are much greater than I had ever imagined. I think we just don’t hear about it more because a lot of N victims don’t know what the problem is, so never seek help or counseling, hence, it goes undocumented.

Even after M is gone, I will probably continue to research NPD for the rest of my life. I will always be on a quest to try and understand the disorder – how she got it, and why I became the target.

Kathy

[JustKathy]

Hops, on your post above, I should add that the idea of having hubby pre-screen correspondence from M was actually a suggestion from my therapist, and I think one of few really good ideas that she's had. It came up last Christmas, because M has been slipping nasty notes into our gifts. My dad goes out and buys the gifts, and M wraps them and slips the notes in, then gives the package back to my dad to take to the post office (M doesn't drive). So no one knows about these nasty notes except me, hubby, and M. I was at the breaking point, not wanting to return the gifts, because it would hurt my dad, who had NO idea of what she was doing.

Last year my therapist suggested that hubby open everything, and pre-screen it, to shelter me from any cruel surprises. If he found a nasty note, he could decide if he wanted to keep it from me, or read it first, to determine whether or not I could handle it. It's very hard for me, because I'm too curious and I WANT to know what's in those letters. But she had that suggestion, and we did try it last Christmas, and I think it helped. I hate that I have to have someone to shield me, but if it works, it's worth trying.

[rosencrantz]

Definitely can do more harm than good.  Been there, got the T shirt.

But I did learn important things with each one. 

Isn't it weird that a therapist is telling you what to do.  I thought good therapists helped you to work out what you want to do - by looking at the reasons 'why'.  If you understand 'why' you want to do something (deep down, unconscious, subconcious motivators), then you've a better chance of working out whether or not your actions are appropriate in the current circumstances.  I can do the former, but I've never quite got as far as the latter.  That's where I always get stuck. 

Recently came across a brilliant book about 'betrayal and the therapeutic relationship'.  All those little betrayals are actually mega big ones. 

But each relationship has made me stronger even tho I've been left in a puddle of helpless, hopeless, trapped rage by the betrayals of each one.  Each one was 'merely human'.  I would never choose to be a teacher or a therapist because I do not have the emotional stamina to do what I believe a therapist or teacher should.  But those who do what they 'should' are actually few and far between.  The rest are hopeful also-rans.

As are parents!!

[JustKathy]

Isn't it weird that a therapist is telling you what to do.

Yeah, it is. The darned thing is, up until now, I never questioned it. She's an licensed therapist, has a doctorate, seems to know a lot about NPD, so in my mind, of course she's right. But if she's right, why I am sometimes coming home from my sessions more upset and confused than when I went in? Not upset at my situation with N, but upset at HER.

Even before M was diagnosed as terminal, my T has always told me to do things that my father had asked me to do (like send M birthday cards and such), with the reason of "you have to do this for your father." On my last visit, I asked her point blank, WHY? Why, when he has been a lousy parent himself, being the trained puppy and believing M's smear tactics. Her response, was that even though he was a lousy parent, he was better than M. THAT was a kick in the head for me. He's the lesser of two evils, but I should still put his feelings ahead of mine?

When I see her next week, I'm going to try to assert myself (for some reason, something I've always been afraid to do with a therapist), and confront her again on this one. This time I have new knowledge that my lifelong suspicion was true - I had been excluded (by HIM) from the will. If she still insists that I try to understand that he was brainwashed, bla bla bla, well . . . maybe it's time to go without a therapist for now. I honestly don't have the strength or the desire anymore to search for yet another new one, go through the process of telling my lengthy family history to someone new, start all over again . . . it's just too much. I get better advice from books and boards like this one. With the impending death of my N mother, this is a bad time to be without a therapist, but on the other hand, I'm thinking that being with the wrong therapist could screw me up a lot worse.

[rosencrantz]

What I don't 'get' is why you have to do anything for anyone's benefit?  What's this therapist's fixation with you being a 'good girl' for your father???  What do YOU need from your father?  If you don't need anything, they you don't need to be 'good' - unless you want to.    If you want something from your father then perhaps you need to keep in his good books (and decide whether it's worth the candle). 

I'd make a great 'tell-you-what-to-do' therapist - and that's why I'm not one!!    

If you need her understanding of NPD - well, maybe that's the upside and she's worth keeping hold of.  Maybe she understand NPD because she has the same parenting issues. Whatever...I think this therapist is working through some of her own issues through you.  And she may not like to know that, so tread carefully.  Perhaps just make discussion about your father 'off-limits'.  Therapy should be about feelings and thoughts not what you do on a day to day basis anyway.  Maybe you are asking her what you should do and she's not able to resist telling you what *she* would do.

Good luck!!

[Saraa]

On my last visit, I asked her point blank, WHY? Why, when he has been a lousy parent himself, being the trained puppy and believing M's smear tactics. Her response, was that even though he was a lousy parent, he was better than M. THAT was a kick in the head for me. He's the lesser of two evils, but I should still put his feelings ahead of mine?

In my opinion, the therapist, by dictating to you, appears to be exhibiting a narcisissistic trait.  I wonder if this is rooted and a dynamic with one of her own children or a parent.  Some times people validate their choices by convincing others to make the same choice.  

I think it is very basic that in order for therapy to work you need to have a rapport with the therapist.  

I do think you should confront her because there is an outside possible that her behavior is designed to provoke you to find your own voice by confronting her.   Just a guess.

But, if you continue to feel anxious or upset for too much longer,  I can't see how that would be healthy.  Just some personal opinions.