...

[Ellie]

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[flower]

Wow, this is a hard one.

What I've done, for input - to take or leave...

Last time we were contacted by NGrandparents, she sent four letters each addressed to each one of us. You may recall me posting this.  Anyway, I didn't ask if my children wanted to see them. I just burned the letters. My daughter doesn't want contact with them and my son gave away the basketball his grandparents bought him and bought a new one. He was happy I burned the letters. My children were accessible to my parents for years and both are damaged from that access and so they know what the grandparents are like. We are all in agreement in this Ngrandparent area.

Ideas:

Maybe you could check the letters for money, take it out and then burn the letters?   Maybe your son doesn't care about the letter and just wants the money?What do your children think about the idea of visiting their grandparents in the future?   Your children may not feel connected enough to even go visit. Would she try to get them to live with her if they went to visit? Do they have big bucks $$$$? I'd protect my kids from them. Are you the one whose parents threatened to take away your kids?
Can't remember.

Best wishes

[Ellie]

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[bunny]

Ellie,

This is a complicated situation. Your children sound like difficult teenagers. Your daughter sounds unusually angry even for an adolescent. And your children are old enough to think for themselves. If they go to see their grandparents, is that throwing them to the wolves, or is it throwing your parents to the wolves? Who would pay for the trip? Who would arrange the transportation? My sense is that your kids might decide that seeing these grandparents is not desirable. Or they might be very curious. Can they take care of themselves against these people? It sounds like they might flatten your parents with their sarcasm. Your parents may be the ones who regret the visit.

Re: letters addressed to the grandchildren. If the letters are manipulative, wierd, and anti-you and your husband, do not hand over the letters to the grandchildren. They're just propaganda and can be treated like trash.


bunny

[mighty mouse]

Ellie,

I say just burn the whole thing without checking it out to see if money is enclosed. It sounds like anything from from your parents is toxic waste. And that goes for visits too. Why even bring it up or entertain it at all.

These are teens we're talking about and the human brain isn't even fully mature until into the 20s. I think you should protect them against these persons. I had little contact with my Grandparents and I didn't feel like I missed anything. If they're 2000 miles away they don't know these people and I doubt that they'll have any great curiosity or yearning to see them. Like you said, they are into themselves right now.

When they are out on their own, they will do as they wish. They can make a decision then whether they want contact with your parents. They sound like dangerous people and you have to protect your kids against dangerous people no matter who they are.

Just my 2 cents.

MM

[wondering]

Two comments on this situation:

In every Narcissistic family I have seen the Grandparents treat the Grandchildren the same way they treated their own children. If the children were molested or abused in any way they are VERY LIKELY to do that to the Grandchildren too.  

Does anyone else see a problem with allowing your children to accept money under these circumstances? Are you sure you want to allow them to "use" other people or to allow themselves to be "used" for money?

Narcissistic families often manipulate each other and money is a prime method for keeping people sucked in.

[flower]

Hi Ellie,
  Aren't teens the pits sometimes? My son is pretty much a nice guy but wow he has a mouth on him lately. You are right:

I have to keep reminding myself - 'this is a natural phase for a teen, she can and will grow out of it with nuturing, loving and caring. But if I keep my distance from her she may stay in this phase forever!'

 This is the time of life they most need us to not give up on them and I've  read they crave our attention at this age.

.  

Does anyone else see a problem with allowing your children to accept money under these circumstances? Are you sure you want to allow them to "use" other people or to allow themselves to be "used" for money?

Narcissistic families often manipulate each other and money is a prime method for keeping people sucked in.

Hi wondering and everyone here,


I see the problem with accepting money from Narcissists.   We don't take a thing from my Nparents at all and have gone through the house giving away almost all things from them.  The money could be given to a worthy cause - preferably to one the N's wouldn't agree with.

Hypothetically speaking, some thoughts, there are always more thoughts one can add:  More ideas about your situation if you are interested, Ellie, and some about my situation.

I was just thinking what if a child would ask if there was money from Grandma at... let's say Christmas. There are battles to pick with teens and I wasn't sure a mom would want to have one in this area yet. Another area might need more attention than this. I guess one could just burn the letters and then think of what to say if the child asks if grandma sent him money. That seems like a decision that should be made thoughtfully. Also, if someone tells a N to stop sending money that can be a bad idea too because then the N can keep sending it and feel like they have won and assume you are accepting the money. There may be a way around that like saying the money will be given to a cause instead of the children. But refusal and explanation would take communicating with them and I think Ellie has broken off contact with them. There is no winning  with Ns.

I consider my lack of contact with my parents a big lesson for my children. What to do with any stray N bait is just finishing up the details.
This is what we did with the Christmas gift from Nparents last year:  We went and bought a bunch of party food with the store gift certificates and took all the fun stuff to our nice relatives  to celebrate the season with them. Did we derive benefit from the money? Yes. We looked good to our nice relatives. Hmm.... We also had the satisfaction that my parents wouldn't want us to have a good time with other people and we did have a good time instead of being miserable like we were at Christmas with them for years. If we gave the money to a cause then we would derive benefit from looking good to the cause. I guess we could send the money anonymously to a cause but then there might me some sense of satisfaction in our act. Or we could just burn the money and that would be a waste of something that could be used for the good of man. This line of thought could go on forever.  Aren't the N parents deriving their supply from thinking that money was accepted if we don't communicate refusal?That could be considered enabling a N by some. So since this isn't a perfect world and we are talking about impossible Ns - my take is that I will stop right at the idea of using the money for someone else's benefit or doing something with the money that is healing like spending it in the way that would satisfy us and not the N. No one is really that good to do the perfect thing, we are flawed, so a person can do what seems the most healthy thing. IMO not use the money in a way we normally would. IMO my 2 cents

[wondering]

These comments are intended gently and with great empathy and caring:

Being emotionally abusive and disrespectful is NOT a phase teenagers should go through nor is it something they're likely to outgrow.  Be careful that you are not rewarding bad behavior and discouraging good behavior. You may need outside assistance with this.

While donating the "N's" money to a cause they wouldn't support is understandable it is also Passive-Aggressive.   Whether you live your life trying to please your "N" or trying to "get even" with them, you're still allowing them to have too much influence over you.

Caring what other people think is part of the Narcissist Family problem.  What is important is living your life with integrity.  Enjoying yourself with your nice relatives is fine; caring whether that "looks good or not" is giving too much power to external things or people.

What truly matters is how YOU feel about YOU.  Live your life with integrity and not to please or impress others.

[Ellie]

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[flower]

Nparents still sent money as gifts to H & I last year. We took it straight to the liquor store and bought all the stuff for our New Year's Eve party that Nparents would kill me over if they could. I sent them a picture later in the year of the kitchen island stocked with drinks, all the folks laughing and having a grand time. The part of everyone having a grand time probably bothered them worse than the alcohol because they do not want anyone to have a good time.

Ellie,

  My mom didn't like it if I laughed too much at a joke.

In my family growing up, it wasn't normal for us kids to test limits - we were scared to death to cross my parents. Very damaging on their part because it gave me a fear and dread to human authority I had to overcome. Don't question anything was the message. I gave out my Social Security number on the phone as a newly wed 27 years ago because I was so compliant. The person claimed they were with the SS office and lost my number. Even if it was true I should have questioned the request. I had put a change in for a name change so it seemed reasonable.  I guess someone probably knew I had just changed my name and I would most likely need to change SS info because my wedding picture was in the newspaper.  


Hi wondering,

 Thank you for caring.

What would you do with money sent to you by an N? Do you have children that an N tries to get to you through?

My son is learning to have a voice and also learning respect. He doesn't "get away" with his mouth.
 
I didn't give the holiday goodies to the nice family in order for them to think highly of me. I brought the example up to demonstrate how someone might see themselves as deriving some benefit from a N's gift by giving it away and thus still be being "used" by the N some way - or "using" the N in some way, the money being tainted somehow by being involved in manipulative interchanges. I can't stand getting money from Ns and I have labored over how to dispose of it without deriving benefit from it in my attempt to end their manipulation of me through money. There is no perfect solution. So I had to just do what seemed the most healthy for me. I guess I wasn't clear as I thought I was in my writing.  My ideas were summed up in:

No one is really that good to do the perfect thing, we are flawed, so a person can do what seems the most healthy thing.

This is my view:

   We cannot totally escape caring what other's think in this life and it is fine to please other people in some circumstances in healthy relationships in healthy exchanges and hope that our loving actions demonstrate care to them. But never to impress. That is vanity.

I'm having great  relief in not trying to fit my parents' definition or others' definition of perfect behavior. I am not perfect and I will never be able to totally stop caring what my parents thought of me or think of me. I have permanent emotional damage from their actions towards me as a child. I have cut off contact from them because their refusal to get healthy with me.  I was willing to work it out and have firm boundaries.  They wanted to not respect my boundaries. In no way am I pleasing them or trying to please them.

 I grieve at times. But the grief is not keeping me from enjoying life and moving on. So in great measure I don't care what they think, but I won't beat myself up if I care sometimes and have a "naughty" emotion or two.

Also my view:

A person can only be passive-aggressive to another person and only if  that other person knows what action they did. My parents have no idea what I did with their gift. It was for my satisfaction only.  If spending money on what we want to counter the oppression we felt as children from our parent's domination and oppression is passive-aggressive then we shouldn't eat devils food cake for fear we will be possessed. IMO It may be crude therapy but it helped me at the time. Someday I may not feel like I need to do this and then I will have progressed to the next stage of not caring if that is possible for me. We have to get our anger out somehow. I can't instantly transport to the next level of healing. Maybe you are further along the journey than me. I need to be at the level I am at.

wondering, what are your experiences with N injury? I haven't heard your voice on here much even though you registered before I did. Do you still have contact with the N is your life? What do you do when Ns try to manipulate you with money? Please share and refresh our memories of your story.  And thank you again for your input. I'm sure you meant it with the best of intentions, it seems we just don't agree on everything and that is okay with me.

[OnlyMe]

[ My mom didn't like it if I laughed too much at a joke.  ]

Just read this sentence, and it triggered another aha moment!

No laughing has ever been allowed, no matter what.  NM always said that if someone tells a joke, it means that they just don't have anything interesting to say.  The biggest complaint they have with dearH is that he tells jokes and laughs too much (he has a wonderfully cheery disposition and we met years ago at a party where we laughed all night long).

Does anyone know why laughing is such a No-No with N's?  Once again, I thought it was just My crazy family that didn't have any joy in life.  

[mighty mouse]

Hi OM and others,

I too had a mom who didn't like us laughing too much. My sister and I would get to giggling up in our room. Instead of being glad we were getting along and being happy, she would always yell at us like we were doing something wrong.

Someone put something on the board some months ago saying that having a sense of humor meant that you had empathy. Ns lack empathy. So maybe that's why they can't stand laughing/joking. My N sister lacks a  sense of humor.

MM

[wondering]

Ellie, flower, OnlyMe, Mighty Mouse:

I am delighted with what you answered to my post and how you are coping with the challenges that come your way.  It is obvious that you ARE all thinking about the effects role models have on your children and what behaviors you are reinforcing.

You are probably right that your daughter is just acting like the child she is and should be.  It sounds like you do understand that what may seem insignificant to an adult can be very important to a younger person in that moment.  

It also sounds like you listen to her, give her voice, and do what you can not to encourage her to emulate her grandmother's dramas.  You are doing what you can to limit exposure while allowing her to have family.  Isn't that the best you can do?

flower, your family sounds like mine.  Everyone - my Mother included - was TERRIFIED of my Father.  I didn't realize how terrified until I was visiting as an adult and one of my sisters talked back to him.  I still remember the first thought I had at that moment was whether I could dive out the front door before someone or something flew across the room.  

I still have a fear of authority and I believe that is a justified, rational fear.  While not everyone has a parent with NPD, most were raised the same and I believe most families - maybe even all families - have narcissistic tendencies.  

Positions of authority are filled with people who want to control others' lives.  The higher up the chain of command the more likely they have NPD.  I'd sooner take my chances with the "bad guys" because the authorities can do far more damage to your life.  

When I was a child these "ideas" were prevalent:

"Children  should be seen and not heard"
"You can't reason with children; you have to beat it into them"
"Spare the rod, spoil the child"

It must have been socially acceptable because my N Father would drag us out on the front lawn by the arm to use a belt on us.  Apparently that made the "discipline" more effective or him feel more powerful.  

It appears to me that most families have all these issues; it is only a matter of degree.  Some may overcome their tendencies and others are so badly damaged that they cannot.  I was told that "Personality Disorder" means that it is so deeply a part of the person that they cannot change.
 
flower you sound like you are dealing with your family in as healthy a way as is possible when they aren't healthy.  The inability to respect boundaries is a major indication of NPD.  

Your conscious decision to make the money into "therapy" shows that you are not acting on passive-aggressive auto-pilot.  Honestly I believe that is very healthy and you are doing great.  

I applaud anyone who knows that THERE IS NO PERFECT and that is the source of our depression, guilt, and shame.  We CANNOT be perfect and we should love ourselves flaws and all.  So much easier said than done.  

To answer your questions, I have very little contact with any of my family.  I left home the day I turned 18 and went my own way.  When I realize that I am repeating lessons because of residual issues I periodically go through periods of self-examination during which I find my way back here.  

When my Mother went into the hospital I made the mistake of giving the "N" in my personal life another chance.  That and my Mother's recent passing have brought up more old issues to heal and that is why I am back.

I spent time with my Mother's sisters on my trips to California to see my Mother when she went into the hospital and again for the funeral.  That was when I realized how much my entire extended family is affected although my Aunts are all close to each other and my siblings are not.  

The funeral was the first time all of my siblings and I were in one place at the same time as adults.  In one of my other posts I wrote about why I think we have no connection with each other.  

I also saw that all of my sisters are once again involved with and/or married to "N" men and my brother is still an "N" himself as was the only brother of my Aunts.  

None of my family HAS any money to manipulate anyone with and that wouldn't have worked on me anyway.  However, the person I was more attracted to than anyone ever in my life has NPD and it is what I've seen of his family that gives me more insights into my own.  

His parents are now multi-millionaires and their money is just one more tool in their toolbox of manipulation.  Although he now realizes how severely he was abused, he isn't getting any better.  

I was such a miserable child that I chose not to have children myself.  I clearly recall thinking that I didn't ask to be born and I was really tired of being blamed and held responsible for everything when I had no control over anything.  

Thank you all for yet another revelation.  One of the worst memories I have is of being asleep and having my Father come in and start hitting me with a belt.  If you aren't safe in your sleep when can you ever rest?

He was angry either because my sisters were still giggling or because we had all been giggling earlier and it had set him off.  Until just this moment I didn't realize it could have been the joy that he was punishing.  

We weren't allowed to express ANY emotions.  When I was trying to learn to ride a bicycle I fell and the bolt on the peddle punctured my leg.  It hurt and blood was pouring out.  There is still a scar there.  

I was not only ordered to "just get back on and ride" but threatened with "if you don't stop crying I'll give you something to cry about".

[Ellie]

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[wondering]

"Ns" use "humor" to hurt you and then tell you you're "too sensitive" when you tell them their "jokes" aren't funny.  

There is a reason for that saying "Misery loves company".  Those who are depressed and unhappy don't want anyone who isn't miserable too around.  It justifies how they feel.

Ellie just gave me another revelation.  I know that we did our best to keep straight faces as children but until just now I didn't realize how that applies to "Ns" in my adult life.  

Because they were raised by other "Ns" they read body and facial expressions and challenge you on emotions you weren't even aware you had.  One would say "What are YOU smiling about?"  

And then the third degree would start:  who did you talk to today, where did you go, who emailed you, who sent messages on the computer, accusations of cheating and that whole mess.