Author Topic: Schema therapy  (Read 2637 times)

Nonameanymore

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Schema therapy
« on: February 19, 2012, 02:58:04 PM »
Hi Dr G.,
Please can you share your views on schema therapy as treatment for children of Ns?
Thanks
Rania


Nonameanymore

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Re: Schema therapy
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 03:12:23 PM »
(hi all - if anyone has tried it, please do share - thanks)

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Schema therapy
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2012, 10:26:51 PM »
Hi Hountini,

First, for those unfamiliar with Schema Therapy, here’s the Wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_Therapy

Second, and not surprisingly, I have (at this point in my life and professional career) very strong opinions about therapy for adult children of narcissistic parents.  For me the critical factors are:

1)   The quality of the attachment between therapist and patient (note the 2-way street!) which is based on:
2)   The capacity of the therapist for genuine empathy (not the rote kind)
3)   The willingness of the therapist to admit suffering in everyone’s life, including their own – and the capacity, on the part of the therapist, to have grown from that suffering
4)   A high degree of a particular kind of (and likely inborn) emotional intelligence on the part of the therapist—such that one “gets” and “feels” almost everything the patient is saying (see number 2).
5)   A minimum amount of defensiveness on the part of the therapist (this, in my experience is very hard to come by!).

One part of Schema Therapy in particular addresses/utilizes these factors:  “Limited Reparenting”.  The other parts, IMO, may well get in the way.  In my view, therapy for children of narcissistic parents involves building a whole new relationship from scratch—something different from what the patient has ever had.  It is a slow process (some might say excruciatingly slow!).  If the patient is ever to love her or himself, and to escape the fundamental existential guilt and emptiness that narcissistic parents engender, they have to first experience the genuine love of another person.  That love comes from a 2-way attachment with a therapist.

All comments are, of course, welcome!

Richard


finding peace

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Re: Schema therapy
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2012, 11:58:13 PM »
Dear Hountini and Dr. G,

I can only describe what I went through.  Now at 40, well +, I was raised by 2 N parents.  I had 10 years of therapy, and discovered during that time that I was lovable (through my therapist).

I did not finish my therapy with him (my fault not his).  And now wish I had.  Nonetheless, Dr. G, he was all that you listed. 

I think I was very lucky to find such a therapist.  I once asked him how he could do what he did, and he told me that for every patient he had, it was like diving into a boiling vat of acid to pull that person (who did not deserve to be in that acid), out of the acid.  And while it hurt him everytime, the outcome was more than worth the pain he felt.

Without him, I believe I would have followed in my father's path and become an N.  In a lot of ways, this is why I do have some sympathy for Ns.  Their early life (at least IME) was not easy, and they did not have the wherewithal to learn a better way.

While I do feel sympathy, I in no way condone how they behave.

My story ... hope I haven't offended anyone.

FP
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sKePTiKal

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Re: Schema therapy
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2012, 07:56:19 AM »
Quote
In my view, therapy for children of narcissistic parents involves building a whole new relationship from scratch—something different from what the patient has ever had.

It is a slow process (some might say excruciatingly slow!). If the patient is ever to love her or himself, and to escape the fundamental existential guilt and emptiness that narcissistic parents engender, they have to first experience the genuine love of another person. That love comes from a 2-way attachment with a therapist.

I completely agree! To me, the important parts of any healing process are precisely the two bolded items.

Rania... I read through the description on the page Dr G provided and recognized a lot of the work I did, but sort of rearranged in importance... different things were important (during my T process) than overcoming a schema. Those things were more what Dr. G described above. In fact, it was pretty clear when I "graduated" from therapy that my T wanted me to realize I had all the new skills - and better understanding of myself - to be able tackle that on my own. Of course - I didn't want to!    ;)

I wanted one of those core needs fulfilled - I wanted to be able to be completely, helplessly dependent on some "other" who wouldn't fail to accurately assess my needs and provide them - and still retain my autonomy. (And I think she would've ended the therapy if I gave in to my Woody Allen type of desire to be a professional therapy patient.) In all kinds of unconscious (and semi-conscious) ways this "want" permeated my relationships with people. Probably still does! But there won't be any real benefit to me to role-play a baby at 55; I'll be that feeble and helpless again, soon enough! It won't cure that longing. But helping that part of me "grow up" more healthy - reparenting myself - does cure it and remains a "work in progress".
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Meh

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Re: Schema therapy
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2012, 01:52:36 AM »
Was thinking today about how the Nar-person provides an ongoing dialogue- or at least that is what my FOO version is.

I think part of me writing on here has been my attempt to like counter-dialouge the Dialogue in someways.

Countering the Dialogue is still participating in the Dialogue though. It's like an argument.

Quote
In my view, therapy for children of narcissistic parents involves building a whole new relationship from scratch—something different from what the patient has ever had.  

« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 01:55:08 AM by Starlight »

sKePTiKal

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Re: Schema therapy
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 08:59:25 AM »
Yes, it is like an argument Star. A never-ending circular argument with no winners.

What Dr. G was saying - what I learned to do from my T, too - was just stop the argument and do something different. More like what we do here, in some really active threads... support, validate, understand and care about each other... even when we disagree on some things.

It is possible to simply walk away from the argument and think, do, be something different. It's the preparation for getting to that possibility that takes time, and talking, reassurance, confidence... even learning new emotional skills. Dr G's point, I think, is that if the only structure for having a relationship that we know, is based on an emotionally abusive pattern... well, we need to learn other ways of having relationships with someone who's NOT abusive. Someone who's "safe" even when we're polar opposites. So that we can develop confidence in our own self - even if it's polar opposite from the other person - without resorting to the old, restrictive, self-defense mechanisms that only shoot ourselves in the foot. No matter how old we are; no matter that we didn't learn this before now.

It really does get better; easier. But it takes a long time.

Just this week, I wanted to move an account from one bank to my new one. In the course of the "courtesy" call - a heads up to the current bank - the manager tried to convince me not to do this. I had to insist that I knew all the things he was suggesting, had already considered them and made my decision and then remind him, that I was only calling him out of courtesy, to let him know what I was doing. And then I've had to deal with my guilt feelings all the rest of the week. This is like an emotional hangover from my FOO. I'm angry that I even have that guilt reaction - it is my money, after all, isn't it?? Why should I even be tormented by this totally irrational feeling??? My reasons for moving the account include some really bad advice, some neglect on the part of the manager, and several mistakes. One mistake could be forgiven; these things happen. When it gets to be a pattern... sigh...

but because the manager is an "authority figure" and has tried to assume a parental type of relationship - like my Nmom, queen of everything and everyone around her who is always right and knows best - it triggered that old guilt feeling of "being bad", of "doing wrong" simply because I was making the manager unhappy that his bank and he himself - was losing my account... in effect, I felt forced to act in my own best interest. It's clearly not in my best interest to leave this account with this bank. It was the right decision - and I wasn't going to let that guilty feeling stop me from taking the proper action.

I've learned better ways to deal with that kind of hangover feeling - the guilt. I don't abuse myself the same way I used to... to make the unconscious statement that "I know I'm bad" or that "there's something wrong with me"... I don't shoot myself in the foot or self-sabotage or self-harm, just because I wanted to end that business relationship that wasn't working out to my benefit... and because I ruined someone's day.

I deal with that old guilt feeling, by kindly reminding myself that this is a different situation than dealing with my mom and that if I don't look out for what I NEED, and make those decisions... no one else is going to. Not even my advisors at the new bank. I don't need to argue this in my feelings (via guilt) or in my mind or with the manager: I'm ALLOWED to make those kinds of decisions and act in my own best interest.

Because I said so! LOL....

 :lol:
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Nonameanymore

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Re: Schema therapy
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2012, 10:45:44 AM »
Hi everyone,

Thanks so much - sorry I didn't thank everyone earlier, I just haven't been around since I posted the question.

Dr G, this is really helpful to know and very clear advice on what to look for in a therapist. And your advice is much more precious than if schema helps or not.

Thank you to Phoenix, Starlight and Finding Peace for sharing