Advice Re: Low Contact?

[KayZee]

Hi everybody,

I just wondered if anyone out there has advice about low contact? 

Without going into too much detail. .  .I guess you could say I've been trying to keep my NM at an emotional distance for the past year or so.  I return her few-times-a-week text messages, but try to only talk with her on the phone once every 2-3 weeks if I can help it.  We've actually been visiting more than we used to in the past.  Like, I see her every one and half months, which is still way more than I'd like.  But, hey, I think I've come a long way in emotionally separating from her, not letting her intimidate or manipulate me as much as she used to.  Not in any way expecting kindness or empathy from her, not divulging blatant sore spots she can use to hurt me.  I think I've mentioned here before, I'd love to go NC, but still feel too fearful about it.  I fear she really would come after my family and me, stalk us, force us to file restraining orders, snatch my kids away from the schoolyard or something.

Anyway, NM just keeps getting clingier and pushier, more trash-talking about me to the rest of my family.  Maybe it's getting worse because she knows I'm not giving her the same kind of attention and affirmation?  Or maybe she has a deficit of N-supply because she's been out of work for a year?  This is no exaggeration: every single freaking week this month, she has texted me to say she wants to come visit.  (Even though we just saw her at the end of July.)  I keep shutting her down, saying 'no' "I'm sorry;" "we're too busy with work;" "it's not a good time". . . all true.  I've also told her she needs to give DH and I way more notice (she keeps asking to stay one day before she wants to arrive).

These boundaries don't seem to be working.  At this point in our relationship, I've chosen LC over NC because I didn't want to have to tell her outright "I DON"T WANT TO SEE YOU."  But I'm now wondering if I need to find the strength/guts to have a conversation where I ask NM something like: "What do you want our relationship to look like?  How much contact?  How many visits etc.?"  And I tell her something like: "Here's my level of commitment: I want to see you only at major holidays.  If and when we meet up, we will meet on neutral territory; I don't want you to stay at my house."  This is still sort of unthinkable to me.  But at the moment, I am desperate.  I am so sick of fighting her off every four days.  I am so sick of her persistent desire to get into my head, house, work-time, marriage, family and mess me up.

She is really turning my family against me too, but I expect that would only get worse.  Yesterday, my Dad was really nasty to me on the phone ("We were going to come visit you. . . but seeing as your too busy..." (la di da tone in his voice.)  Though, I suspect it was for NM's benefit.  She was right there in the background, chiming in.

That's a conversation for a different thread, but I'm more depressed and angry about Dad than NM  these days.  When she goes away on a trip, Dad calls me drunk every evening to chat and pour his heart out.  And then, when she's around, he either ignores me/pretends I'm dead or mirrors NM's nastiness and abuse.  I have compassion for him, too.  I know where he's coming from and that he's just scared of her the same way that I am.  But it hurts like a knife.  Maybe I've neglected this part of my healing work, focusing so often on my feelings about NM and never about Dad.

Gah, anyway. . . Sorry for the rant.  Thanks again for listening.  I just wondered: Tell NM I am aiming for LC?  Or just keep defending my boundaries on a bi-weekly basis, no matter how much the pressure and manipulation is grinding me and DH down?  Will she ever give up?  It feels like she'll NEVER let it be!

Just wanna be free (when will I ever be free of this?  when will she ever stop poking and prodding at me?)
Kay x

[SilverLining]

Hi KayZee.  

Low contact is pretty much the approach I have taken with my entire FOO.  And like you I've often wondered if a stronger more defined approach is better (like maybe taking a job at an Antarctic research station).   But NC brings its own set of issues.  If I made an official declaration of NC, then they are going to peg me a certain way (probably as an evil black sheep or something like that), and it's going to affect every relationship with every relative I have.  The resulting constant conflict and opposition would actually tie me deeper into the whole N family process.  Every contact with any of them would end up focusing on the NC situation.  So it seems best to just press forward with the LC in spite of resistance. 

In my early 50's now, I'm finally learning to make use of polite but firms ways of managing the interactions.  Conversations are limited to 15 minutes or so, and then I tell them I'm driving into a tunnel and have to hang up,  or I have an appointment to go to, or the cell phone battery is dying.  Actual visits are infrequent formal occasions such as holidays.  And when they press for more I just say no, I have some other obligation to attend to.  

It's a long hard process, but I believe they do eventually learn something and start letting things be.  If I make myself into difficult prey, they move onto other targets.  And I can turn my attention to more satisfying relationships.  It's kind of a Zen approach to the whole thing.  Be like water and flow around the problem, eventually even the hardest rock is dissolved. 

[BonesMS]

I hear you, KayZee!

One of the things I've learned, the hard way, when dealing with N's is that, both N's and their Co-N's, will NEVER hear you!  They are so self-centered and self-absorbed that they will NEVER recognize other people as human beings WITH BOUNDARIES.  Their "world-view", (for lack of a better description), is that you, your DH, your children, your jobs, your time, etc. are THEIR PROPERTY to be USED for their own self-gratification.

Bones

[KayZee]

Whew. . . Thank you, Silver.  It's a relief to know I'm not alone.  It's just so intense at the moment.  And I still feel so guilty every time I say politely say 'no' or erect a boundary.  (This is my own B.S., of course.  I need to work on that old "assert-and-relax" exercise.)  But fighting her off over and over, with no real breaks in between, is maddening.  And it doesn't help when NM activates her grapevine and gets the rest of the family guilt-tripping me.  NM has already poisoned my relationships with most of my family, so the damage is already done.  I probably shouldn't let fear dictate my life.

[KayZee]

Amen, Bones.

They are so self-centered and self-absorbed that they will NEVER recognize other people as human beings WITH BOUNDARIES.  Their "world-view", (for lack of a better description), is that you, your DH, your children, your jobs, your time, etc. are THEIR PROPERTY to be USED for their own self-gratification.

This is so frustrating!  I hate that feeling of being objectified! 

In this case, I don't even feel like the desired object anymore.  I feel like the tool (like a chopstick) that NM and co-N enabling Dad want to use to get to who (in their minds: what) they really want (my kids).  My kids are toddlers and just beginning to find their voices, their separation, their defiance and anger (of course none of this comes into play with the grandparents).  As far as NM is concerned, my three-year-old daughter and one-year-old son are the perfect sources of N-supply.  Oh how NM loves to play games with them (NM taught my DD to call her "Momma").  At least, NM "loves" them until they fall down, scrape a knee and come running to DH or I for a hug (that's when NM launches in on how manipulative and fake DD's emotions are). 

Agggggghhhhh.  I can't live the rest of my adult life wresting this parasite demon dragon-woman off of me.  What is the point?  Why do I even put up with it?  Probably because, as long as I'm LC and civil, I can persist in telling myself I'm not the 'bad girl' NM always taught me I was.

[BonesMS]

Amen, Bones.

They are so self-centered and self-absorbed that they will NEVER recognize other people as human beings WITH BOUNDARIES.  Their "world-view", (for lack of a better description), is that you, your DH, your children, your jobs, your time, etc. are THEIR PROPERTY to be USED for their own self-gratification.

This is so frustrating!  I hate that feeling of being objectified! 

In this case, I don't even feel like the desired object anymore.  I feel like the tool (like a chopstick) that NM and co-N enabling Dad want to use to get to who (in their minds: what) they really want (my kids).  My kids are toddlers and just beginning to find their voices, their separation, their defiance and anger (of course none of this comes into play with the grandparents).  As far as NM is concerned, my three-year-old daughter and one-year-old son are the perfect sources of N-supply.  Oh how NM loves to play games with them (NM taught my DD to call her "Momma").  At least, NM "loves" them until they fall down, scrape a knee and come running to DH or I for a hug (that's when NM launches in on how manipulative and fake DD's emotions are). 

Agggggghhhhh.  I can't live the rest of my adult life wresting this parasite demon dragon-woman off of me.  What is the point?  Why do I even put up with it?  Probably because, as long as I'm LC and civil, I can persist in telling myself I'm not the 'bad girl' NM always taught me I was.

I hear you!

For what it's worth, have you discussed your options with a lawyer, just in case the N-Bitch attempts to "up the ante"?

Bones

[Hopalong]

KayZee,

I'm preaching to myself, but I think your first obligation to your children is to care for your own mental and physical health. And the hypersensitivity to your Ns' LACK of sensitivity is something I can profoundly relate to. I never ever completely got over it, with my mother. I slowly made my own peace with her, and found a way to forgive her once I began facing how hard-wired her personality was. Waaay beyond my pay-grade to ever affect it in a meaningful way. But the crazy-making of being with her, the hurtful/oblivious things she'd say and do, the inerent unfairness and imbalance, the sense of teetering constantly on a wire that was being yanked around in a capricious wind by someone SO indifferent to (or incapable of noting) my feelings...was damaging to me.

So I think if you need LC or NC, the only thing that matters is that you simply and gravely accept your right to do what you need to do.

The irony, for me, in reading your post...is knowing that my daughter feels just as much loathing and hypersensitivity to me, as you do to your Nmother.

I was weeping about it with my T again this morning. But my job is to accept it. She has a right to make that choice. And my job is to feel, and heal, and feel, and heal--over and over again.

It's a tragedy in both directions, really. And I guess all one can really do, in face of the unthinkable, is keep on living. Find love and hope wherever you can. And peace.

You are entitled to your peace and perhaps only a period of NC, or better-enforced LC (my vote, those clear and specific boundaries that are enacted through assertiveness...repeated until it's second nature) -- will help you find it.

I feel so much resonance with how you feel. And, there's a part of me that can't help but identify a bit with any exiled parent. But that's just projection and doesn't have anything to do with the reality you've lived through.

It all just sucks.

love to you,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hi Kay,

I've tried to reply several times but had to keep deleting it - I wanted to try to explain my own experiences to you in the hope that it would help a little but it gets so complicated that it runs into pages!  Very, very simply, what happened in my situation was

Initial attempt to restrict contact (after direct requests to change/stop certain behaviours failed - seemed okay on the surface but she was slagging me off to anyone that would listen and spreading all sorts of lies about me

Moved 200 miles to get away from her and had various rows via email as I felt safer about being more assertive - seemed okay from my point of view but she'd upped the sabotage and was effectively stopping my disabled son from getting medical treatment - I didn't realise she was the one doing this at the time.  I guess you could call this stage low contact as well

Discovered she'd made false allegations of abuse against me - stopped contact all together.  Threatened an injunction when she wouldn't leave my son alone.  Reported her to the police for forging my signature on financial documents and my step-father for abusing me.  She made numerous other referrals to various agencies claiming I was abusing my son.

I've lost count of the lies she's told about me, the bad things she's done, the harm she's caused.  I've been trying for, I suppose, about ten years to 'deal' with her.  I feel like I've finally done it.  She has no hold over me any more.  I no longer mourn the mother I don't have, or fear the one I do.  I'm not fussed, one way or the other, what she does, what she thinks, how she behaves.  If she wants to come and visit, she can.  I'd have no qualms at all about telling her how to behave or throwing her out if she got out of control.  If she wants to stay away forever, she can.  If she wants to bad mouth me 24 hours a day to everyone in the world, she's welcome to it.  I don't give a tiny rat's arse   (I don't remember where I read that now but it's always made me laugh).

So what I'm trying to say is - I think there are a multitude of ways of dealing with your situation.  I think you can pick and choose the ways that suit you best - you, not your mum, your dad, your family or anyone else - you.  I think you can try something and if you feel it's not right you can change it.  Everyone's experience is different and personally I think different people are ready for different things and different times.  Some people can go NC without a second thought, some find it a step to far and would rather cope with a bit of hassle twice a year than cut off all together.  Do what's best for you and your kids.  It's really, really hard!  Whatever you do.  There's no easy way of dealing with it.  But I'm so much happier than I've ever been now, I think dealing with it (her/them) is worth it, even though it's such a slog.  Lots of love xxx

[sKePTiKal]

These boundaries don't seem to be working.

Well, yeah. You're trying to teach her about something she knows absolutely nothing about! She doesn't accept that any boundaries apply to her -- she's your MOM, fer cryin' out loud... Mom's don't have to accept boundaries... (at least in Nmom's minds...)

And you don't have to feel guilty about what a slow learner she is.

It took me 4-5 years to see any real success teaching my mom about boundaries and getting her to respect them. I'd beat myself up for her failures... learned to only say uh-huh, yeah... and then "talk to ya later! I gotta go!" (no specific reason)... learned not to beat myself up for her failures... finally taught her the basic fundamentals of conversation: I'm allowed to talk about ME and MY LIFE, too... and I had to be consistent (like potty training) and patient (this was completely foreign to her) and not let my natural "OMG, what's wrong with her" outraged, embarrassed reaction persist in me. This spirals into another emotion, for me.

Since my mom & bro are a tag-team... I saw real clearly how I was taking responsibility (and then feeling like a failure and guilty) for things I shouldn't; when after at least 6 months of discussing a purchase for the business and making sure that bro was still agreeable every couple weeks - at the last minute he freaked out and promptly forgot everything we had discussed and he'd agreed to... and tried to imply that I was doing something behind his back.  Yes; I felt like I'd failed at something and I felt guilty. I asked hubs how much sense that made - for me to feel this way... when I wasn't the one with the "problem" here.'' I'll let you imagine his answer...

You are well within your rights to ask for - insure - and maintain any level of relationship you want to with Nmom... and to have different kinds and levels of relationships with other family members. It's simple on paper... but because of Nmom's inability or unwillingness to accept even mild boundaries... you have to have something simple to remember and hang on to while you're in the process of trying to change your own reactions enough... to begin to address the situation with Nmom directly.

(BTW - if I deliberately don't answer the answer phone or have been busy - when I finally do pick up... now I get the "OH... you're home today and not out running around..." like I'm on 24/7 phone duty just for her... hahahahahahahahaaaaa! Leave a friggin' message mom... and if I don't call you back -- I FORGOT.)

[BonesMS]

I like the "potty-training" analogy!   

Bones

[KayZee]

Hi Bones,

For what it's worth, have you discussed your options with a lawyer, just in case the N-Bitch attempts to "up the ante"?

Not a bad idea.  I'd be lying if I said I never went hunting on the Internet, just to see what kind of visitation rights/requirements she and my co-N enabling dad are entitled to.  At least here in the state of NY, she doesn't have any right to see my kids so long as my husband and I are both living.  Don't think the N-fearing part of my mind hasn't worried that she'd have one of us knocked off for just that reason! 

This is paranoid fear, yes, but not without back story.  When my sister  (then in college) was dating a man my NM didn't like; she used to repeatedly talk about the possibility of hiring a hitman to get rid of him.  Once, a few years ago, NM also pulled me aside and said something about "the insurance money she was going to give me if she succeeded in killing my Dad and making it look like an accident." Both incidents left me too horrified for words.  I just kind of stood there choking.  The only time I've managed to stand up to NM when she starts in with violet threats, is when NM told me she might go snatch my niece from daycare to spite my sister's ex-husband.  I told her in no uncertain terms, "If you do that, you will never ever see any of your grandkids again.  Not my kids.  Certainly not my niece.  A court will see to that.  And have you thought, at all, about the effect that would have on the child you're so desperate to see?"

Agh, she's such a lunatic.  I think it's projection too, making it worse.  She estranged herself from her dad when my sister and I were kids and didn't talk to him for 28 years.  So now that she's a grandparent herself, she lives in mortal terror that someone will do the same to her.  What she doesn't get, is that she keeps CREATING situations that ENSURE the same thing is going to happen!  NM is such a total self-fulfilling prophecy: treat everyone like sh*t, so they treat you like sh*t and prove people suck; emotionally abandon everyone so they physically abandon you, thus proving your lifelong suspicion that everyone will leave.  It's like a sad reminder that she can't live in the world, or see anyone for who they are.  She's created this psycho-drama, refuses to give it up, and pushes the rest of us until we play along.

[KayZee]

(((Hops))))

Thank you so much for the support. 

I'm so sorry for everything you're going through with your D.  And I hope she manages to work through whatever she's struggling with.  It's always seemed to me, in your posts, that you're such a compassionate and caring mother, so respectful of her feelings and needs.  I can only imagine the pain you must be feeling.  I hope she gets the help she needs.  You're an incredibly brave, strong and empathetic woman for giving her the distance to work it all out.

I think you're right.  I just need to keep asserting and asserting until I'm blue in the face.  It's mostly just the guilt and shame that gets to me--the cruel little voice in my head that says, "See?  NM is right about you!  You oversensitive, selfish, ungrateful child!  What kind of person doesn't want to see her own mother?"  But that's my own issue.  Something I need to work on.  Need to keep healing the inner child and finding the compassionate, maternal inner-mom who can replace the echos of NM's voice. 

[JustKathy]

I was LC for about ten years, then finally went NC about six years ago. I can tell you this much (and I'm sure everyone here has experienced the same). The more you pull away, the harder they push. They will NOT be ignored. As you're finding out now, the less contact you have with your NM, the more she will turn up the heat. With me, the smear campaigns and nasty letters at the LC level became so unbearable that I first went NC with only her, then this last year, went NC with my co-father as well. When she was no longer able to get to me, she started using him as her henchman. You mentioned that your Dad has suddenly become very nasty. This also happened to me. He had always been very low key, mumbling and blabbering his way through phone conversations, but once I hurt his Queen, I saw a completely different person, someone who I did NOT like.

I wish I had a solution for you, but unfortunately, it's a sh!tty situation no matter what you choose. Regardless of what you do, she will make it her life's mission to make you pay for "what you've done to HER." There's no stopping that. No N will ever willingly back down and respect your wishes. You are not her child, you are simply an object, and one that is not performing to her standards. If you do not perform in the manner that she demands, she will attempt to force you. Your feelings? They don't exist to her. The only thing that matters is HER, and she WILL NOT BE IGNORED.

I moved, changed my address and phone number, and made it crystal clear that I do not want any contact with them. NM has gone so far as to have me tracked down so that she can continue to send her wicked, nasty letters. She knows damn well that I'm done with her, and that, right there, is the problem. She will not go down without a fight.

I will say, that even though I feel horribly violated over her stalking me and sending unwanted mail, I have the option of simply throwing it away. When I was LC, I had to deal with it. Emotionally, NC has been very hard, but not as hard as being forced to interact with evil.

Good luck , whatever you decide to do. There's no pleasant way out. Just do whatever makes YOU happy. She's been getting her way since the day you were born. Now it's your turn!

[JustKathy]

I should add that I, too, am more depressed and angry over my father's actions. In NM's case, she has a mental illness. I've always expected it from her. But I always gave my father a pass. For 40+ years I told myself that he loved me, but that he was brainwashed, maybe even mildly retarded. I was sure that he loved me, but didn't know what he was doing. Finding out that the parent who you thought was sane, who you really believed loved you, was nothing more than an accomplice ... it rips your heart to shreds. It HURTS. I really feel for you, and what you're going through with him. It took me me a few years to finally accept it, but it still hurts. It always will.

Sending you hugs .....

[BonesMS]

Hi Bones,

For what it's worth, have you discussed your options with a lawyer, just in case the N-Bitch attempts to "up the ante"?

Not a bad idea.  I'd be lying if I said I never went hunting on the Internet, just to see what kind of visitation rights/requirements she and my co-N enabling dad are entitled to.  At least here in the state of NY, she doesn't have any right to see my kids so long as my husband and I are both living.  Don't think the N-fearing part of my mind hasn't worried that she'd have one of us knocked off for just that reason! 

This is paranoid fear, yes, but not without back story.  When my sister  (then in college) was dating a man my NM didn't like; she used to repeatedly talk about the possibility of hiring a hitman to get rid of him.  Once, a few years ago, NM also pulled me aside and said something about "the insurance money she was going to give me if she succeeded in killing my Dad and making it look like an accident." Both incidents left me too horrified for words.  I just kind of stood there choking.  The only time I've managed to stand up to NM when she starts in with violet threats, is when NM told me she might go snatch my niece from daycare to spite my sister's ex-husband.  I told her in no uncertain terms, "If you do that, you will never ever see any of your grandkids again.  Not my kids.  Certainly not my niece.  A court will see to that.  And have you thought, at all, about the effect that would have on the child you're so desperate to see?"

Agh, she's such a lunatic.  I think it's projection too, making it worse.  She estranged herself from her dad when my sister and I were kids and didn't talk to him for 28 years.  So now that she's a grandparent herself, she lives in mortal terror that someone will do the same to her.  What she doesn't get, is that she keeps CREATING situations that ENSURE the same thing is going to happen!  NM is such a total self-fulfilling prophecy: treat everyone like sh*t, so they treat you like sh*t and prove people suck; emotionally abandon everyone so they physically abandon you, thus proving your lifelong suspicion that everyone will leave.  It's like a sad reminder that she can't live in the world, or see anyone for who they are.  She's created this psycho-drama, refuses to give it up, and pushes the rest of us until we play along.

Yeah.....NM is Bat-Shit Crazy!

Bones